Has Robert Walls got a BRAIN ???

[Rooboy 96]

After reading his article today, I doubt it very much.

But Walls was such a successful coach (two of the clubs he coached don't exist anymore, co-incidence???) he can say what he wants.

Personally if he is going to have a wank I would prefer him to do it in the privacy of a public toilet.

 

[Arch]

perhaps a good swap for Walls would be John Northey eh ????

A.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

What has the fact that two teams dont exist(read merged) got to do with it?

Pagan will have coached a team that wont exist shortly too, so what?

Bye Bye Pooies.....

 

[The Dutchman!]

Short answer = No.

 

[Bomber]

What Walls is trying to say is that North is approaching the end of an era, and Pagan isnt the coach to build a team back up. Pagan has had a great team for many years, and some say he has underachieved, however the point is the current leaders at the club were the leaders 5 or so years ago - he hasnt had much coming thru. At the moment, the Roos have the worst group of youngsters in any AFL team.

He is saying Pagan coaches for today, unlike coaches like Sheedy who coach for today, AND tomorrow. Its what makes Sheedy so good, and why he has been there for ages.

They are different types of coaches, and all Robert Walls is trying to say is Pagan may have spent enough time at North.

Sheedy is a good delegator, and has blokes like Harvey, Shaw and Daniher doing most of the direct coaching and is a breath of fresh air. Pagan on the other hand isnt a delegator, and does most of the work. Therefore all his players have heard his story many times before, and it becomes stale.

Basically, North has to rebuild - and is Pagan the person to do it?

Its got nothing to do with coaching ability, but ability to sustain yourself as a coach, which is an ability in itself.

This was brought up on Footy Feedback last night, and Silvagni agreed saying that new people (ie Brittan) bring fresh air and a new lease of life to a club. Pagan either has to start letting others in and delegating more, or move on to new pastures.

I think there is merrit to what he saying. Its why I never want to get rid of Sheedy - he is more than a coach, he coaches for today, but always keep the future in mind.

 

[Groucho]

Stupid article,mainly because it just ain't gunna happen so what was the point of it? If he thinks North need to rebuild well write it from that perspective,but why couldn't Pagan be involved in the rebuilding phase? Most of his senior players have 2-4 years left in them and there is no reason to think that he couldn't rebuild a team with that basis and barely skip a beat, he was a highly successful junior coach so young players respond to him. Also I don't know how often he's been to training but Tony Elshaugh,Tim Harrington and Ross Smith are quite prominent at training and Pagan seems to act as an overseer so I think he made some of it up! He also says this has been North's least successful year under Pagan with 9 losses but they lost 11 in 1997 so one of his indicators is wrong for a start!

 

[GoEagles]

Gosh, isn't it obvious? Walls wants Pagan to resign and coach St Kilda next year, so he can fill in the position at North Melbourne and cash in their success - and can someone tell him that he looks like someone from Play School with that daggy beard!

 

[Rooboy 96]

Bomber, would you be one of those Essendon Twits that wanted Sheedy gone 2 years ago?

Just a question.

I have always respected Sheedy as a coach, and I think someone in Walls position (4 times sacked as a coached) should respect Pagan, who does he suggest we replace Pagan with... Timmy.

 

[Barney]

Pagan was a great coach of under 19 and junior players..why wouldnt you want him
rebuilding at North.How much are the AFL paying Walls to write this rubbish

 

[Bomber]

Exactly, Pagans senior players have only 2 or so good years left - he needs more coming through. Is there a real distinctive group of Joey's (baby Kangaroos) who are set to take over from the Archers, Careys, and Martyns? Because at Essendon we have Hird, Long, Barnes etc with a couple years left, doesnt mean we dont have youngsters coming thru! The future of Essendon can be seen - the Johnsons, Rioli, Ramanaskaus, Heffernan, Solomon, Lloyd, Lucas, Jacobs and Blumfield. When we won the flag in 93 we had senior players like Thompson, Watson, Odonell, Harvey, and players like Hird, Mercuri, Fletcher and Misiti coming through. They are now more senior players at the club helping the younger guys.

It was actually suggested Pagan swap with Wallace! They will both have new lists, and can start fresh with a new bunch of players. Walls isnt doing it for personal gain. It is a suggestion (that Pagan cant build a team) that I know people have said for a while. I hadnt really thought about it, and this is the first time I have seen it in the press, and on thinking about it now, I sorta agree with it.

Rooboy - I have never wanted Sheedy to go. He is the best promoter of a club going around, he isnt just a coach. I couldnt think of a better person to have coach the bombers than him. The people who wanted him to go didnt realise how much he means to the club OFF the field, as well as on.

 

[Royboy]

And finishing where they are does them no favours come draft time.

Colbert will have to be a superstar over the next few years to compensate selling the farm to get him.

At this stage I think I'd rather have Welsh.

I wouldn't be assuming the AFL is going to keep underwriting North's interstate experiments either.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Bomber, when the Kangaroos finish out of the eight for a couple of years and get a chance to select some decent kids at the draft, we will, don't blame us for being so successful over such a long period. 8 years in the finals, 6 (so far) in the top four.

Don't sit there typing away a load of shit about how great it is to finish down the ladder and get some good kids...

Are you saying... The Kangaroos would have been better to have finished last, last year and get Josh Fraser (sorry nearly split a seem) then win a PREMIERSHIP. I hope not.

 

[Bomber]

Its got nothing to do with draft picks - there is a thread in process here talking about the average nature of the #1 pick. just as many good players come from down the bottom than up the top. Jimmy Hird isnt a bad example!

Look at Green from Melb, just about every club could have picked him up before Melb, but they didnt. So far he has looked better than Fraser at #1!

Sorry, but saying that you are a top team and thats why you havnt got good players coming thru is a pi$$ weak excuse!

 

[Rooboy 96]

bomber,

not just a good team, a damn fantastic team for a long time, since the AFL became a 16 team comp no other team has bean in the top four, for as long as the Kangaroos.

We are bound to slip, probably this year, don't worry we will return.

PS I know about the flukes like hird, we got ours Pickett, but they don't fall off trees.

and in another twist Essendon really paid no penalty for salary cap cheating, as early picks mean nothing to you. You and Homer would make a good pair, actually you would have to throw in Mike Sheahan to make an ordinary pair out of the three of you.

 

[Bomber]

Of course you will slip, every team does. The question is has Pagan prepared himself well enough or has tried too hard to get too much out of his current players, that he has neglected the future?

When did I say top picks mean nothing? I said that its no excuse saying you dont have a good young list now because your succesful - thats crap!

Yes, north have been succesful, but have also had a fantastic list. MANY people believe north have underachieved in the 90's. What is it, 2 flags from about 6 or 7 preliminary finals in a row or something?

 

[Gonzo]

Have to agree with Groucho

Walls states in his article that he doesn't know who the assistant coaches are and what they do at North.

Here's a tip Walls - go to North's training and watch Elshaugh and Smithy basically run the entire session - it's called research you clown!!!

 

[Rooboy 96]

I was curious so I checked last night, since Pagan took over, the Kangaroos have not had a national draft pick lower then 14.

So bomber I have to agree with you, as Essendon have had numerous picks lower then 14 and have only played in one grand final, and have finished out of the eight several times.

OBVIOUSLY LOW DRAFT PICKS ARN'T THAT IMPORTANT!!!

[This message has been edited by Rooboy 96 (edited 17 August 2000).]

 

[Dan26]

Rooboy is right.

Low drafet picks don't mean shit. I'm sure Collingwood (as good as Josh Fraser is going yo be) would have picked paul hasleby if they could have their time over again.

A lot of good layers get picked up late. it is impossible to make accurtae choices of players who are only 17.

Pagan is the greatest coach of the modern era (and that includes Sheedy). What Pagan has done with a mediocre ppaying list is extraordinary, in my opinion.

He hasn't had a team out of the finals since 1982. Look at his under 19's record. 9 consecutive Grand Final. You can't say this has anything to do with talent because every 2 years there is a COMPLETE turnover of players in the under 19's. Despite this he kept on getting different teams into the Grand Final 9 years in a row. Pagan was the only constant. The players came and went as the years went by.

The man is a genius, and if he ever left, it would be curtains for North. Pagan is the most influential person at that footy club. Not Wayne Carey.

 

[Shinboners]

Personally, I think Pagan is a different sort of coach to Sheedy. If you're going to compare coaches and clubs, a more valid comparison for North would be Carlton.

It wasn't so long ago that the Blues were looking at their first wooden spoon, and yet, they played in last year's Grand Final and if wearn't for injuries, would be challenging Essendon for this year's premiership. North may be headed for a similar reversal of fortunes next season.

For the elders of the North team (Carey, Martyn, Archer, Stevens, Blakey) you can match them up with Carlton's leadership team (Bradley, McKay, Silvagni, Ratten, Fraser). While Bradley and friends have been able to do their part in lifting Carlton from the doldrums of '97, the test is for the North players to do the same.

Both clubs have a set of players with experience but are still young (eg Harvey and Pickett at North, Camporeale and Whitnall at the Blues), both have some youngsters that show promise, and both clubs seem pretty adept at recyling players from other clubs.

The coaches have a familiar approach as well. For most of his career, Parkin has been a control freak, just as Pagan is now. It has only been in the last few years that Parkin has delegated work to his coaching panel. It's up to Pagan to decide whether he sticks to his way or to change it to a more panel orientated approach like Sheedy and Parkin.

As for Sheedy, I reckon he's a great coach, not only for what he's done on the field, but also the work he's done in promoting Essendon and footy in general. He takes risks, cops the flack when it doesn't work, but deservedly reaps the praise when it does. When he walked down to the ground near the end of the third quarter last Saturday, he got a standing ovation from the Essendon fans....he fully deserved that. It was only at the start of last year when the Essendon board (and some in the media) were trying to push him out.

As for North underachieving, I'm pretty content with the 2 flags. I would've been happy with just the one. Considering that more than a few people feel that West Coast and Essendon have underachieved as well, I figure that about 15 or 20 premierships would need to have been awarded in the 90s for every club to have achieved what everyone else felt they should have done.

 

[RICE80SF]

Wall's article was a classic Sheehanesque "knee jerk", "complex problem = easy answer" unresearched piece of crap. "The players are tired of the coaches message", that's the worst kind of wishy washy excuse in the football world, I reckon. Imagine telling your boss that your works suffering because you're tired of his work instruction. You feel a change of boss will do the trick. "No worries employee I'll clean out my desk today, NOT!

".

Pagan's been sensational for the Roos, you can't do much better than 2 in 4 years. Don't forget people were quick to jump on "the rejects" in '98 after their GF loss. The Roos finished 4th for Christ's sake. Interesting Carey made the comparison with the Tigers bad injury run this year and everyone saying it was a success when they failed to make the finals. Good point Wayne.

These guys in the media forget it's peoples career's their dealing with. I remember Terry Wheeler's fate of being sacked, effectivley determined by ex-Bulldog Jon Ballintyne (Spell?) having one, I repeat, one good game for the Maggies. "How could Wheeler get rid of him, when they need goal kickers?" they all said as one, "he's a star". Their "a weeks a long time in footy" attitude meant the club was pressured into sacking him. Of course we all know what happened to Jon (the star) Ballintyne, he's now in the where are they now file.

They have problems at the Roos, most teams in the league, but just a little tinkering is required, not a whole overhaul.

Cheers.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Did anyone read Happell's article in the AGE on Tuesday. You can see the difference in a story that has some research behind it.

Walls should get the sack, would anyone seriously take any notice of anything he wrote in the future? NOT ME.

HERE IS AN IDEA, MAYBE WALLS AND THE AGE SHOULD SPLIT FOR THE BETTERMENT OF US.

[This message has been edited by Rooboy 96 (edited 18 August 2000).]

 

[Barney]

Agree with Shinboners, North dont need to panic and the comparison with carlton is a good one.Both teams have had a bad run with injuries to key players like Carey and Kouta which has stuffed up year 2000 for bothe of them.Pagan and Parkin are similar..maybe
North need to follow the carlton model and think about a coaching panel rather than just Pagan calling the shots with a bit of help from Elshaugh etc.Credit to Sheedy he has changed over the years and given up some of his duties to Harvey,Daniher and Shaw..one of his major attributes is that he has a large say in recruiting and seems to be able to have an eye for young talent..Pagan and Parkin seem to leave it to the recruiting staff.

Go Roos