Opinion Has the year been a success?

[timtamWB]

Bonti maybe????

I'm pretty sure he meant Honeychurch maybe. So Bonti is a win, Honeychurch maybe a win. Which I'd disagree with and say Honey is definitely a win.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

A question to those suggesting that our on-field exploits have been unacceptable. If I'd have told you the following at the end of last year, how would you feel?

• Minson has a poor year and his future in the side is questioned.
• Griffen has a poor year after struggling with back injuries and is rarely in our bests.
• Boyd mostly transfers to a tagging role and is unleashed only when games are on the line.
• Cooney's form drops off considerably.
• Murphy plays more of a defensive role.
• Roughead has an injury-interrupted year and struggles to find form.
• Grant, Wood, Wallis, Morris, Smith, Dickson (who some tipped to be our leading goal kicker) and JJ all miss periods through injury.
• We win the same amount of games as we did last year.

I'm not making excuses - I'd like to have seen a greater level of success as well - but I get the feeling too many are looking at our form in the back-end of last year as being representative of where we are as a team. When we played well last year Griff and Minson were AA. Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Wallis, Roughead, Cross and Grant were all in excellent form, while Gia was still offering a lot as a super sub. None of this has occurred this year. Instead, the following has:

• Macrae is a chance to both win our B&F and lead our Brownlow vote-getters.
• Bontempelli came in by mid-season and is now - according to the bookies - an unbackable favourite for the rising star, tipped to win out against players that have played more games.
• Stringer kicks over 20 goals despite spending part of the season in the VFL, and down back in the AFL.
• Dahlhaus transitions to the midfield on an almost full-time basis.
• Wood solidifies as a best 22 player.
• Hrovat makes an impact.
• Wallis and Libba continue to develop their cohesiveness as an inside unit.

In short, the players largely responsible for our form last year have mostly dropped off and failed to have an impact - or, at the very least, an equal impact - in 2014. Instead, the younger boys have taken control of the wheel and driven much of our form. If you told me that that would be the case this year, yet we'd win more quarters of footy and the same amount of games (as well as some over more fancied opponents in Richmond, Collingwood and Gold Coast), I would be pretty impressed.

Have we been ugly to watch at times? Yes, absolutely - but I think when you sit back and have a look at the circumstances surrounding the season, it becomes more understandable. Our form has been run by 18-20 year olds, and no matter how highly they're rated, they're not going to outweigh the drop of form we've seen from so many vital 2013 players. I'm not making excuses, nor accepting our form as a success - I've been as critical of aspects of our game being poor as anybody - but from my perspective it's very hard to justify our on-field form being 'unacceptable' or a complete failure. When in-form this season I felt our form was more impressive than it was in the back end of last year because of who was contributing most heavily to it. Yes, it's disappointed we've trailed off, and yes, I'd have liked to have seen us in peak form more regularly, but I don't think it's been a failure.

 

[Mutt]

^^^ Strong candidate for post of the year Dannnnnnnnnn .

 

[black pup]

I agree year driven by our kids, mark, four out of ten. FAIL.

 

[yebiga]

I agree year driven by our kids, mark, four out of ten. FAIL.

Maple was a huge success

 

[fronkalicious]

A question to those suggesting that our on-field exploits have been unacceptable. If I'd have told you the following at the end of last year, how would you feel?

• Minson has a poor year and his future in the side is questioned.
• Griffen has a poor year after struggling with back injuries and is rarely in our bests.
• Boyd mostly transfers to a tagging role and is unleashed only when games are on the line.
• Cooney's form drops off considerably.
• Murphy plays more of a defensive role.
• Roughead has an injury-interrupted year and struggles to find form.
• Grant, Wood, Wallis, Morris, Smith, Dickson (who some tipped to be our leading goal kicker) and JJ all miss periods through injury.
• We win the same amount of games as we did last year.

I'm not making excuses - I'd like to have seen a greater level of success as well - but I get the feeling too many are looking at our form in the back-end of last year as being representative of where we are as a team. When we played well last year Griff and Minson were AA. Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Wallis, Roughead, Cross and Grant were all in excellent form, while Gia was still offering a lot as a super sub. None of this has occurred this year. Instead, the following has:

• Macrae is a chance to both win our B&F and lead our Brownlow vote-getters.
• Bontempelli came in by mid-season and is now - according to the bookies - an unbackable favourite for the rising star, tipped to win out against players that have played more games.
• Stringer kicks over 20 goals despite spending part of the season in the VFL, and down back in the AFL.
• Dahlhaus transitions to the midfield on an almost full-time basis.
• Wood solidifies as a best 22 player.
• Hrovat makes an impact.
• Wallis and Libba continue to develop their cohesiveness as an inside unit.

In short, the players largely responsible for our form last year have mostly dropped off and failed to have an impact - or, at the very least, an equal impact - in 2014. Instead, the younger boys have taken control of the wheel and driven much of our form. If you told me that that would be the case this year, yet we'd win more quarters of footy and the same amount of games (as well as some over more fancied opponents in Richmond, Collingwood and Gold Coast), I would be pretty impressed.

Have we been ugly to watch at times? Yes, absolutely - but I think when you sit back and have a look at the circumstances surrounding the season, it becomes more understandable. Our form has been run by 18-20 year olds, and no matter how highly they're rated, they're not going to outweigh the drop of form we've seen from so many vital 2013 players. I'm not making excuses, nor accepting our form as a success - I've been as critical of aspects of our game being poor as anybody - but from my perspective it's very hard to justify our on-field form being 'unacceptable' or a complete failure. When in-form this season I felt our form was more impressive than it was in the back end of last year because of who was contributing most heavily to it. Yes, it's disappointed we've trailed off, and yes, I'd have liked to have seen us in peak form more regularly, but I don't think it's been a failure.

Exactly why I voted the year a success. We ticked the box in the most important aspect of the season - the emergence of our blue chip young talent.

The drop off from almost every other player on the list can't be overlooked though. We played a whole heap of god ugly football for long periods this year.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

A question to those suggesting that our on-field exploits have been unacceptable. If I'd have told you the following at the end of last year, how would you feel?

• Minson has a poor year and his future in the side is questioned.
• Griffen has a poor year after struggling with back injuries and is rarely in our bests.
• Boyd mostly transfers to a tagging role and is unleashed only when games are on the line.
• Cooney's form drops off considerably.
• Murphy plays more of a defensive role.
• Roughead has an injury-interrupted year and struggles to find form.
• Grant, Wood, Wallis, Morris, Smith, Dickson (who some tipped to be our leading goal kicker) and JJ all miss periods through injury.
• We win the same amount of games as we did last year.

I'm not making excuses - I'd like to have seen a greater level of success as well - but I get the feeling too many are looking at our form in the back-end of last year as being representative of where we are as a team. When we played well last year Griff and Minson were AA. Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Wallis, Roughead, Cross and Grant were all in excellent form, while Gia was still offering a lot as a super sub. None of this has occurred this year. Instead, the following has:

• Macrae is a chance to both win our B&F and lead our Brownlow vote-getters.
• Bontempelli came in by mid-season and is now - according to the bookies - an unbackable favourite for the rising star, tipped to win out against players that have played more games.
• Stringer kicks over 20 goals despite spending part of the season in the VFL, and down back in the AFL.
• Dahlhaus transitions to the midfield on an almost full-time basis.
• Wood solidifies as a best 22 player.
• Hrovat makes an impact.
• Wallis and Libba continue to develop their cohesiveness as an inside unit.

In short, the players largely responsible for our form last year have mostly dropped off and failed to have an impact - or, at the very least, an equal impact - in 2014. Instead, the younger boys have taken control of the wheel and driven much of our form. If you told me that that would be the case this year, yet we'd win more quarters of footy and the same amount of games (as well as some over more fancied opponents in Richmond, Collingwood and Gold Coast), I would be pretty impressed.

Have we been ugly to watch at times? Yes, absolutely - but I think when you sit back and have a look at the circumstances surrounding the season, it becomes more understandable. Our form has been run by 18-20 year olds, and no matter how highly they're rated, they're not going to outweigh the drop of form we've seen from so many vital 2013 players. I'm not making excuses, nor accepting our form as a success - I've been as critical of aspects of our game being poor as anybody - but from my perspective it's very hard to justify our on-field form being 'unacceptable' or a complete failure. When in-form this season I felt our form was more impressive than it was in the back end of last year because of who was contributing most heavily to it. Yes, it's disappointed we've trailed off, and yes, I'd have liked to have seen us in peak form more regularly, but I don't think it's been a failure.

LOL.. there are certain posts that deserve something a little extra

 

[Mattdougie]

Last year was a 3/10

So logically this year has to be a 2/10

Every team has excuses and injuries

 

[Dogsman16]

Putting up a comprehensive list analysis mainly reflective the players who played in the seniors this year. Doing it in numerical order. If you have a few extra minutes to spare, I’m interested to hear thoughts. Let me know if I missed anyone.

THE GOOD

Rob Murphy - a gradual decline from his 2011 season was obviously expected but he is still an integral player in our team. Hasn't lost any speed at all and still provides leadership and quality ball distribution in the back half. A good mentor for Easton Wood, Sam Darley etc.

Marcus Bontempelli - Ladies and Gents we have found an absolute gun. So versatile and so classy and should be a deserved winner for rising star and goal of the year. Despite his lean build and inexperience he has averaged the most contested marks at the club. A huge part of our future.

Luke Dahlhaus - Spent a lot of time in the midfield this year and has improved his tank as well as his contested ball ability. Needs to work on his disposal and occasional rash decision making but his agility and cleverness is a vital asset to the team.

Stewart Crameri - Has kicked 33 goals so far and done his job. Runs hard up field to give more space for Stringer to lead into. Needs to work on not getting caught with the ball as often and to take more contested marks, but his athleticism has made our forward line better.

Jake Stringer - Ditto Bontempelli, Jake is/will be an absolute gun. Mediocre start to the year but his time in the VFL has turned him into the beast we all know and love. Leads our goalkicking in the back half of the season and has contributed many goal assists. Whilst many want him in the middle for at least the next 2 - 3 years for mine he has to stay at Full Forward with the additional big body to be added beside him.

Easton Wood - Cemented himself into best 22 and provides crucial run and carry as well as strong marking ability and courage. Big fan of Easton and he will be a more crucial component of the team once Bob retires.

Jack Macrae - Leads the club in disposals and has taken his game to a new level. Doesn't get the plaudits that the matchwinners have in Stringer and Bontempelli, but has become a vital outside distributor in our midfield.

Tom Liberatore - GUN GUN GUN!!! Do I need to say more about our clearance king. Not really!

Nathan Hrovat - Great game just gone against Sydney and a very composed user of the footy. Another vital cog in our midfield and looks as though he can take the next step into become a good AFL midfielder.

Dale Morris - Tries extremely hard despite his smaller stature in comparison to the big forward. Needs help in the backline and needs it fast.

Liam Picken - One of the best shutdown players in the game, and very rarely gets beaten whether in the middle of forward. Needs Wallis to step up to release Picken onto the best opposition small forward.

THE OK

Mitch Wallis - Was working himself into some good form before his injury and the team has felt his loss since Heppell cleaned us up in that last quarter. Has a big future as our number 1 shutdown midfielder, but needs to clean up disposal.

Matthew Boyd - Has had a decent year but issues over his disposal still remain. I struggle to see a best 22 role for Boydy next season as we cannot afford to many similar style of players.

Shaun Higgins - Had a decent start to the year but as the spotlight increased in regards to where he would be playing next year, his form has tapered off. Sometimes uses the ball extremely well but sometimes fairly poorly I don't think come next season it will be our problem anymore.

Jason Tutt - Thought he on occasions provided good run and goal kicking ability and was occasionally stiff to be dropped. Matchwinner against the pies a highlight. Needs a big season though in 2015.

Ryan Griffen - Injury ruined his first 8 - 10 weeks as he was either unable to play or unable to show his superstar quality. In the back end of the season his form has got better and will come back next season better and with more around him to fill the void.

Adam Cooney - Captain inconsistent had some good games and then some shockers, cannot be to reliant on him to help us back up the ladder. For mine a strong candidate for the sub role next season, although I’m not sure to what quality he would provide in this role

Fletcher Roberts - Has had a great year in the 2's and seriously unlucky not to get more AFL games in which Roughy and Austin have been poor. He should be playing 22 games next season but not at Whitten Oval but instead on Etihad.

Mitch HoneyChurch - Showed some very impressive signs in the 2's this year most particularly his ability to hit the scoreboard. Only reason why I have him in the OK section is because their are several players who play his role at AFL level and do it well. Hope to see at least 12 – 15 games in the seniors next season.

Koby Stevens - Made a good start to their year but his form has decreased. Some question his spot in the seniors but I feel his marking ability makes up the occasions when he goes missing. Needs to work on his set shots if he is to play forward line more often. Offers more versatility than boyd as he can push forward so that’s why he stays best 22 next season. Also could prove to be a valuable asset with his big body in big games.

Lachie Hunter – In and out of the side on numerous occasions. I’m a big believer in his skillset and particularly his ability to accelerate quickly, but for the sake of the side we need a big stepup from Lachie.

Michael Talia – Despite playing minimal games in the 1’s I really think that he will be the missing link in the defensive setup we have at the moment. Forget his disposal for just a second, we need a KPD with an ability to shut down tall athletic forwards and he is the one I would turn to who is currently on our list.

Sam Darley – Showed us that he is one of the better users of the ball in our side and on occasions was harshly dropped. But he does need to improve his body shape to become a better defender.

Jason Johannisen – Not the season we hoped for from JJ and his shoulder injury probably set him back in the first half of the season but latter games have been better. We need him to stand up too.

Tom Campbell – Like many others didn’t cement a best 22 spot but dominated in the VFL all season. Unfortunately for Tom he has big will in front of him, but I am a huge fan of his tap work which often he directs to the right spot. More forward development from Tom is needed plus a bit more mobility if he wants to play 22 AFL games next season which would have to be in the 2nd R/KPF spot.

THE BAD

Jarrad Grant – Injury certainly didn’t help him this season but he really didn’t grab his senior spot by the scruff of the neck. Despite his talents for mine I would be contemplating trade offers to get more depth in the KPF, KPD or outside mid spots.

Liam Jones – Showed his inconsistency once again to be brilliant on occasion and then go missing at the drop of a hat. Needs a 30 + goal season in 2015 if we are to persist.

Will Minson – His stats were a major dip on his 2013 season and he didn’t help he had little help all season. Down on Hitouts were a concern but for mine his drop in average marks per game were even greater. Cannot afford to play the solitary ruck anymore.

Tory Dickson – Injury cruelled his season!! Hope to see him have a big finals and really compete hard for a spot come round 1. Good game against Adelaide though in which he showed his overhead ability which will be important come 2015 after Gia’s retirement. A potential sub role for Dicko as well.

Tom Young – Thought he was close to grabbing a role in our defence this season but form wasn’t great from Tom. Coaching didn’t help him in that regard as sometimes he was forced to opposition key forwards when really he is a rebound defender.

Brett Goodes – Good VFL player but struggles to adjust to AFL football. Will be delisted at seasons end. Would be high in the VFL voting alongside Campbell, Roberts, Lower etc

THE UGLY

Jordan Roughead – I am being extremely harsh on Jordan but he had a very poor season which somewhat can be blamed on injury but a lot to do with his inability to shutdown the KPF’s. Needs a change of position next season and should compete with Campbell for the second ruck spot. I have high expectations on him and this is why I have him in this category.

Christian Howard – Get rid of him, that’s all really to be said.

Matt Fuller – Doesn’t look great when we overlook Ben Brown and instead we have a bloke who had minimal impact at VFL level let alone AFL. Will be extremely fortunate to survive a dreadful season.

Ayce Cordy – Being harsh again but for a player who has played a total of 20 senior games across 6 seasons does not bode well for his future. Still isn’t strong enough to take contested marks nor break even in the ruck at AFL level. Not sure what to do with him to be honest.

THE UNKNOWNS

Clay Smith, Daniel Pierce, Josh Prudden – All 3 have had tough breaks with injury, but have enough time to hopefully challenge for a 2015 role. Keenly anticipating Clays Return

THE RETIREES

Tom Williams, Daniel Giansiracusa – Thanks for you service boys!!!

 

[dogwatch]

A question to those suggesting that our on-field exploits have been unacceptable. If I'd have told you the following at the end of last year, how would you feel?

• Minson has a poor year and his future in the side is questioned.
• Griffen has a poor year after struggling with back injuries and is rarely in our bests.
• Boyd mostly transfers to a tagging role and is unleashed only when games are on the line.
• Cooney's form drops off considerably.
• Murphy plays more of a defensive role.
• Roughead has an injury-interrupted year and struggles to find form.
• Grant, Wood, Wallis, Morris, Smith, Dickson (who some tipped to be our leading goal kicker) and JJ all miss periods through injury.
• We win the same amount of games as we did last year.

I'm not making excuses - I'd like to have seen a greater level of success as well - but I get the feeling too many are looking at our form in the back-end of last year as being representative of where we are as a team. When we played well last year Griff and Minson were AA. Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Wallis, Roughead, Cross and Grant were all in excellent form, while Gia was still offering a lot as a super sub. None of this has occurred this year. Instead, the following has:

• Macrae is a chance to both win our B&F and lead our Brownlow vote-getters.
• Bontempelli came in by mid-season and is now - according to the bookies - an unbackable favourite for the rising star, tipped to win out against players that have played more games.
• Stringer kicks over 20 goals despite spending part of the season in the VFL, and down back in the AFL.
• Dahlhaus transitions to the midfield on an almost full-time basis.
• Wood solidifies as a best 22 player.
• Hrovat makes an impact.
• Wallis and Libba continue to develop their cohesiveness as an inside unit.

In short, the players largely responsible for our form last year have mostly dropped off and failed to have an impact - or, at the very least, an equal impact - in 2014. Instead, the younger boys have taken control of the wheel and driven much of our form. If you told me that that would be the case this year, yet we'd win more quarters of footy and the same amount of games (as well as some over more fancied opponents in Richmond, Collingwood and Gold Coast), I would be pretty impressed.

Have we been ugly to watch at times? Yes, absolutely - but I think when you sit back and have a look at the circumstances surrounding the season, it becomes more understandable. Our form has been run by 18-20 year olds, and no matter how highly they're rated, they're not going to outweigh the drop of form we've seen from so many vital 2013 players. I'm not making excuses, nor accepting our form as a success - I've been as critical of aspects of our game being poor as anybody - but from my perspective it's very hard to justify our on-field form being 'unacceptable' or a complete failure. When in-form this season I felt our form was more impressive than it was in the back end of last year because of who was contributing most heavily to it. Yes, it's disappointed we've trailed off, and yes, I'd have liked to have seen us in peak form more regularly, but I don't think it's been a failure.

I guess you're alluding to me (among others) Dannnnnnnnnn

Your post just highlights my points about (a) expectations and (b) comparing apples and oranges.

If we have low expectations and/or make concessions for some players being injured and some being out of form then we are naturally going to think the year wasn't too bad. But the plain fact is they were injured (although our injury list was mild by compared to some years) and they did play poorly and we lost a lot of games. By onfield results I simply meant wins, margins and ladder position. I covered under different headings much of the other stuff you refer to.

Don't misunderstand me. There are some good signs and I love the fact that our young brigade is now the engine room of our onfield performance. It means the selection policy of certain types of player (as well as their footy skills) has been successful, because they are resilient, they are already taking responsibility for performance and they are showing some level of leadership.

But none of this changes anything about our net performance. We had 8 wins last year and finished 15th. With a better draw in 2014 and one round to play we have so far had only 7 wins and will finish 13th or 14th. We can rightly enthuse about "development years" and maybe look back in 2017 and say it was "the pathway to a flag" but any year in which a club finishes in the bottom third of the ladder with no more than 8 wins is an on-field FAIL in my book.

 

[lateniter]

I've been sitting on this since the Round 2 game against North Melbourne, and now seems to be a good time to let it out.
Unless some big changes are made soon we are in for many more winters of discontent.
There's no doubt that a few young players - notably Bontempelli, Hrovat, Macrae and Stringer - have provided a glimmer of hope, but the team was, on the whole, very poor.
Even the exceptions were qualified. They were good against Collingwood (who had an even younger team than ours) against Richmond (in one of their sooky periods) and against Gold Coast (their first week without Ablett).
But did we ever look like dominating a whole game? Did we ever look like winning the way St Kilda did against Fremantle (margin 58 points) or Brisbane against Collingwood (margin 67 points)? Yes, they are exceptions, but I might be less annoyed than this if we'd given any hint - just once - that we knew how to take a game by the scruff of the neck. I wish I could share the confidence some here have in our coaching staff. I just can't make myself believe that we're on the threshold of a brave new era.
We really struggle to get the ball out of defence, bomb the ball to no-one in particular when we do and miss the simplest of goals if we get it. Yes, we had a few smart moves, but they won't get us into the eight, let alone the top 4 or, god forbid, a grand final. Other teams won't be sitting around waiting for us to get someone to help out poor Morris and Murphy in defence (I don't think Roughhead is the answer at full back) or kick regular bags of goals.
It's no use blaming the drop-off in form of older players. Some were on their last legs and the team gurus should be managing the flow of players in and out of the club so the burden doesn't fall on the younger players. Players like Lower, Goodes and Young were an attempt at filling the gap in the middle age bracket but were never more than the average players they are.
But I did like Lower for his bolshy attitude, something we've lost along the way. Only Liberatore, and occasionally Minson, really fly the flag these days.
But even if we did find good key position players, that probably won't be enough. We were fortunate to get a really good player in Crameri, but he seemed to spend most of his time chasing the ball.
Footy is a tough business and some tough decisions have to be made or the Dogs (who I've supported for more than 50 years) will continue to just make up the numbers.

 

[theAthenian]

A question to those suggesting that our on-field exploits have been unacceptable. If I'd have told you the following at the end of last year, how would you feel?

• Minson has a poor year and his future in the side is questioned.
• Griffen has a poor year after struggling with back injuries and is rarely in our bests.
• Boyd mostly transfers to a tagging role and is unleashed only when games are on the line.
• Cooney's form drops off considerably.
• Murphy plays more of a defensive role.
• Roughead has an injury-interrupted year and struggles to find form.
• Grant, Wood, Wallis, Morris, Smith, Dickson (who some tipped to be our leading goal kicker) and JJ all miss periods through injury.
• We win the same amount of games as we did last year.

I'm not making excuses - I'd like to have seen a greater level of success as well - but I get the feeling too many are looking at our form in the back-end of last year as being representative of where we are as a team. When we played well last year Griff and Minson were AA. Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Wallis, Roughead, Cross and Grant were all in excellent form, while Gia was still offering a lot as a super sub. None of this has occurred this year. Instead, the following has:

• Macrae is a chance to both win our B&F and lead our Brownlow vote-getters.
• Bontempelli came in by mid-season and is now - according to the bookies - an unbackable favourite for the rising star, tipped to win out against players that have played more games.
• Stringer kicks over 20 goals despite spending part of the season in the VFL, and down back in the AFL.
• Dahlhaus transitions to the midfield on an almost full-time basis.
• Wood solidifies as a best 22 player.
• Hrovat makes an impact.
• Wallis and Libba continue to develop their cohesiveness as an inside unit.

In short, the players largely responsible for our form last year have mostly dropped off and failed to have an impact - or, at the very least, an equal impact - in 2014. Instead, the younger boys have taken control of the wheel and driven much of our form. If you told me that that would be the case this year, yet we'd win more quarters of footy and the same amount of games (as well as some over more fancied opponents in Richmond, Collingwood and Gold Coast), I would be pretty impressed.

Have we been ugly to watch at times? Yes, absolutely - but I think when you sit back and have a look at the circumstances surrounding the season, it becomes more understandable. Our form has been run by 18-20 year olds, and no matter how highly they're rated, they're not going to outweigh the drop of form we've seen from so many vital 2013 players. I'm not making excuses, nor accepting our form as a success - I've been as critical of aspects of our game being poor as anybody - but from my perspective it's very hard to justify our on-field form being 'unacceptable' or a complete failure. When in-form this season I felt our form was more impressive than it was in the back end of last year because of who was contributing most heavily to it. Yes, it's disappointed we've trailed off, and yes, I'd have liked to have seen us in peak form more regularly, but I don't think it's been a failure.

Beautifully written but alot of your positives are simple givens due to the fact that the young get stronger and the old get weaker. its called natural progression Dannn and it happens every year. We are a shambles of a group without any leadership on or off the ground and like afew posters have mentioned we are at risk now of being mediocre for the next ten years (The new richmond). Where exactly did u see progress in the way we transition out of defense, the way we switch from defense to team attack to team defence and so forth? When actually did we beat a team and cause an upset or dominate through superior team ethos? The last two years have been a blur of random positive snippets mixed in with a whole lot of poor football, a hell of a lot. All of us here have watched enough football to know when something big is brewing, when losing is a positive as we see a team 'ethos' a 'gameplan' emerging. When did u see this Dann? When did all the unrelated individual good news snippets you love to throw up on the boards tie together to produce a result?
If nirvana was around the corner alot of us so called Bmac bashers would be onboard because we, like you, love and bleed red/white and blue. Unfortunately Dannn we have all watched enough football to realise we are flat, rudderless and in dire need of a vision going forward, over 3 years we have not improved in anything that translates into a result, for every hole we plug a new one opens up. If you dont like what im saying look at the horrendous team stats this season has produced, For gods sake man where is the progress u talk about? We are bottom 4 in almost every conceivable stat.
Im sorry to post this - i'm not trolling or pooh poohing your post - the truth is i'm worried we are entering a long long period of proping up the afl ladder under this coaching regimes philosophy.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

LOL.. there are certain posts that deserve something a little extraView attachment 76014

Finally, I see the most coveted award, my golden thumps up! Well played sir, and Dannnnnnnnnn a most deserving winner of the golden thumbs up.

 

[Bulldog Banana]

I havent read all the posts, so forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said.

Due to the good finish to the season last year, I think we all had some elevated expectations.
I originally had us at 10 wins at the start of the season.
We did come close in a few games, so that target may have been realised, but the reality is that it hasnt.

I think the positives out of the season has been that the younger players have taken on more responsibility in each match & we arent reliant on the veterans to carry the side.
To me the VFL side has been an obvious success as it has allowed us to develop & play our guys in positions we want.
I reckon Talia & Roberts have been teamed together in the VFL as the 2 key backs & allowed to develop together.
I dont think we will see Austin next year, but we will see Talia & Roberts in the seniors as the 2nd & 3rd tall backs.
Along with Roughie they will be the core of the defence for a few years into the future.

Broken record time - we need a decent target up forward. If we can get one, i reckon the rest of the team will develop quickly.

 

[Werewolf]

Voted "No" on the grounds that I expected more wins. Our biggest winning margin of 28 points (hope that changes by Sunday) isn't that impressive either. I'm not convinced on the ability of the coaching staff to get the most out of the playing group, although as many have already mentioned, the youngsters are coming along well

To further add I would like to see more spending on recruiting. I much prefer 4 more part time recruiters over the next retired Geelong player as an assistant coach.
We are still making simple errors which are internal laughed at by opposition recruiters (straight from the horses mouth). Obviously easier said in hindsight.

Are they laughing at us recruiting Bontempelli? Macrae? Stringer? Hrovat? Please clarify

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I guess you're alluding to me (among others) Dannnnnnnnnn

Your post just highlights my points about (a) expectations and (b) comparing apples and oranges.

If we have low expectations and/or make concessions for some players being injured and some being out of form then we are naturally going to think the year wasn't too bad. But the plain fact is they were injured (although our injury list was mild by compared to some years) and they did play poorly and we lost a lot of games. By onfield results I simply meant wins, margins and ladder position. I covered under different headings much of the other stuff you refer to.

Don't misunderstand me. There are some good signs and I love the fact that our young brigade is now the engine room of our onfield performance. It means the selection policy of certain types of player (as well as their footy skills) has been successful, because they are resilient, they are already taking responsibility for performance and they are showing some level of leadership.

But none of this changes anything about our net performance. We had 8 wins last year and finished 15th. With a better draw in 2014 and one round to play we have so far had only 7 wins and will finish 13th or 14th. We can rightly enthuse about "development years" and maybe look back in 2017 and say it was "the pathway to a flag" but any year in which a club finishes in the bottom third of the ladder with no more than 8 wins is an on-field FAIL in my book.

I didn't really have anybody in particular in mind; just a general vibe from reading over the thread, haha.

I can see your point and it's well made; I personally just think a "net performance" is too narrow a category to deem a success or failure. Circumstances change, and your initial expectations heading into the season will never be made on the same basis that we stand towards the end of the year. There is some debate to be had around whether we excuse the season's occurrences as simply 'consequences of the season that every team experiences' and I think that's where we differ most significantly from each other. We're using different criteria to adjudge how acceptable or unacceptable our on-field exploits have been. While it's a fun exercise I don't personally think any meaningful analysis can be drawn from comparing your pre-season expectations to how we actually performed. Over the course of the season you go through highs and lows (even the top teams) and trials and tribulations - some teams' more extreme than others' - and it's something that I don't think is adequately captured by such a comparison. I realise you've separated net results from the other things I've mentioned but in my opinion you have to combine them to reach any sort of accurate conclusion. Too many things happen as the year goes on. I prefer to look at the intricacies of our games and the circumstances that surround them as I don't feel it's fair to separate them from output. At this point though I realise we're just arguing personal preferences and neither is more valid than the other.

Beautifully written but alot of your positives are simple givens due to the fact that the young get stronger and the old get weaker. its called natural progression Dannn and it happens every year. We are a shambles of a group without any leadership on or off the ground and like afew posters have mentioned we are at risk now of being mediocre for the next ten years (The new richmond). Where exactly did u see progress in the way we transition out of defense, the way we switch from defense to team attack to team defence and so forth? When actually did we beat a team and cause an upset or dominate through superior team ethos? The last two years have been a blur of random positive snippets mixed in with a whole lot of poor football, a hell of a lot. All of us here have watched enough football to know when something big is brewing, when losing is a positive as we see a team 'ethos' a 'gameplan' emerging. When did u see this Dann? When did all the unrelated individual good news snippets you love to throw up on the boards tie together to produce a result?
If nirvana was around the corner alot of us so called Bmac bashers would be onboard because we, like you, love and bleed red/white and blue. Unfortunately Dannn we have all watched enough football to realise we are flat, rudderless and in dire need of a vision going forward, over 3 years we have not improved in anything that translates into a result, for every hole we plug a new one opens up. If you dont like what im saying look at the horrendous team stats this season has produced, For gods sake man where is the progress u talk about? We are bottom 4 in almost every conceivable stat.
Im sorry to post this - i'm not trolling or pooh poohing your post - the truth is i'm worried we are entering a long long period of proping up the afl ladder under this coaching regimes philosophy.

Don't be - it's a great post.

My post wasn't intended to list a lot of positives about how the season progressed, but more to put our W/L record in perspective. I agree with what you say - a lot of the 'positives' I listed are young guys progressing (although I dispute the fact that it's a given: Melbourne's kids didn't progress, and our kids have progressed more than a lot of other teams' kids in the past few drafts), and a lot of the older guys are falling away. But I ask a question: if these are 'givens,' how many of what I listed did you expect? Did you expect Minson to struggle with form for much of the year and go from AA to being dropped for Campbell/Cordy? Did you expect Griffen to struggle with injury and rarely be in our best players? So on and so forth. I think we expected the drop off but some of the circumstances were extremely surprising to a large majority. My point is that if you foresaw these circumstances, most people likely wouldn't expect us to win 10+ games. Who'd have thought that Macrae, Dahlhaus, Bontempelli, Stringer, Wood and Hrovat's (plus others') development would be enough to balance out what we've lost from Griffen, Minson, Boyd, Murphy, Morris, Grant, Roughead, Wallis, etc, through both form and injury? It's remarkable in my mind that our results have been largely similar to last year's despite our biggest contributors dropping off or being unavailable. The extent of development in a variety of players' games this year has been nothing short of phenomenal. It's a pity it's been masked by others dropping off. I accept that this is only my opinion but I think we've improved out of sight for much of this year (disregarding the past fortnight), but it hasn't explicitly shown in results. I have no doubt that many of the intricacies of our game have improved. We score more freely, we spread more effectively, we tackle more efficiently, we defend more ruthlessly, we dispose of the ball more accurately and we make better decisions with ball in hand; the list goes on. Not everybody will agree with what I'm saying and that's fine; I'm more than happy to be one-out if it comes to that - I just personally feel as though we've improved in a lot of areas. If I were to add a fully fit Griffen and Minson into our side, as well as an in-form Wallis for much of the year I have little doubt we'd have ended up with 10-12 wins (which for many seems to be the difference between a 'failure' and a 'success'). I can't say that about last year, where many of these players played well.

As for your questions, I'll address them separately.

Where exactly did u see progress in the way we transition out of defense?
From kick-outs we don't just clear the 50 on the left wing and watch as players congregate at that point, necessitating a pack mark or free kick, as we did last year. Instead, our players run forward-like leading patterns and we seek shorter options - often along the wings. We tend to target runners and good ball users to ensure the ball is in the hands of the right player (unfortunately, we don't have enough of them - but that's a list management concern rather than development of the side). When there are no options or they're deemed too dangerous we clear the 50 and target the wings to ensure a) the ball doesn't rocket back through the corridor, and b) we don't commit turnovers inside opponent 50. Our running patterns in kick outs are greatly improved, both up the ground and closer to the opponent's goal. On loose balls, there is a much clearer system than there was last year. Those with little chance of winning the ball (or if we have too many numbers in the contest) position themselves behind the contest, ready to provide tackling pressure should the opposition move it out, and to give options in space if we are to dispose of it. Last year we'd overcrowd the contest and force stoppage after stoppage. Further up the ground, sweepers set up more efficiently to ensure they're prepared for rushed kicks. On turnovers, we react more quickly and begin to run to open the ground up and provide options further downfield. However, transitioning the ball remains a concern, but I contend that many of the issues are list management related moreso than structural; ie. we have too many players that don't adhere to structure (Higgins is the first that comes to mind that rarely reads his role as well as he needs to), not enough good kicks and not enough speed.

When actually did we beat a team and cause an upset or dominate through superior team ethos?
Cause an upset: Richmond (the big one - never gave in even when things collapsed around us), Collingwood, Gold Coast. All of these were against much more fancied teams and featured periods where we lost touch and through courage, teamwork and persistence, managed to get back on top. Others weren't upsets but also showed this ethos, like games against GWS and Melbourne.
Dominated: None. But dominated in periods? Gold Coast (four goals in a row), Richmond (four goals in a row twice), GWS (six in a row to win the game), Adelaide (four in a row), Essendon (five in a row), Gold Coast again (four in a row, then six in a row later on), Collingwood (four in a row), Melbourne (seven in a row) and St Kilda (four in a row). That's without even mentioning obscure stats like "six out of the last seven goals" and such. Inconsistency is hurting us here but that's the same for most sides in our position.

When did all the unrelated individual good news snippets you love to throw up on the boards tie together to produce a result?
For the most part, it hasn't. And I've maintained that stance throughout the year. I can see parts of our game - those that I've already mentioned, as well as manning up more tightly, guarding hurried kicks from the opposition, playing more quickly, etc - improving (or at the very least, improving from where we were last year), but as you say, it hasn't come together regularly enough. I seem to get pegged as an unwavering 'pro-Macca' acolyte but in truth I'm far from - I see where we're improving, but I also see where we're not. There are areas of the game that we need to improve out of sight that are largely McCartney's responsibility, and without turning this into a McCartney thread, I'm not trying to say with these posts that he's doing everything perfectly and we're on target in every single variable. We're not. All I'm trying to say is that there are many areas of the game in which we have improved. Have they come together regularly yet? No, and in the end that is the team's biggest test.

I'm not trying to say that we're definitively on the right path - as I need to see much more before I have total faith in our direction - but there are a lot of areas of our game that are moving forward at a steady rate from my perspective. I appreciate that not everybody sees them as I do - it is just an opinion after all - but to my eyes we are progressing faster than most give us credit for. Unfortunately for us, this improvement has coincided with the loss (or loss compared to last year) of some extremely important pieces which, in my opinion, has masked our progress.

 

[fronkalicious]

It's in no way a given that young players develop. Not even close. That's been a huge win for us this season (and arguably our only win).

 

[theAthenian]

I didn't really have anybody in particular in mind; just a general vibe from reading over the thread, haha.

I can see your point and it's well made; I personally just think a "net performance" is too narrow a category to deem a success or failure. Circumstances change, and your initial expectations heading into the season will never be made on the same basis that we stand towards the end of the year. There is some debate to be had around whether we excuse the season's occurrences as simply 'consequences of the season that every team experiences' and I think that's where we differ most significantly from each other. We're using different criteria to adjudge how acceptable or unacceptable our on-field exploits have been. While it's a fun exercise I don't personally think any meaningful analysis can be drawn from comparing your pre-season expectations to how we actually performed. Over the course of the season you go through highs and lows (even the top teams) and trials and tribulations - some teams' more extreme than others' - and it's something that I don't think is adequately captured by such a comparison. I realise you've separated net results from the other things I've mentioned but in my opinion you have to combine them to reach any sort of accurate conclusion. Too many things happen as the year goes on. I prefer to look at the intricacies of our games and the circumstances that surround them as I don't feel it's fair to separate them from output. At this point though I realise we're just arguing personal preferences and neither is more valid than the other.



Don't be - it's a great post.

My post wasn't intended to list a lot of positives about how the season progressed, but more to put our W/L record in perspective. I agree with what you say - a lot of the 'positives' I listed are young guys progressing (although I dispute the fact that it's a given: Melbourne's kids didn't progress, and our kids have progressed more than a lot of other teams' kids in the past few drafts), and a lot of the older guys are falling away. But I ask a question: if these are 'givens,' how many of what I listed did you expect? Did you expect Minson to struggle with form for much of the year and go from AA to being dropped for Campbell/Cordy? Did you expect Griffen to struggle with injury and rarely be in our best players? So on and so forth. I think we expected the drop off but some of the circumstances were extremely surprising to a large majority. My point is that if you foresaw these circumstances, most people likely wouldn't expect us to win 10+ games. Who'd have thought that Macrae, Dahlhaus, Bontempelli, Stringer, Wood and Hrovat's (plus others') development would be enough to balance out what we've lost from Griffen, Minson, Boyd, Murphy, Morris, Grant, Roughead, Wallis, etc, through both form and injury? It's remarkable in my mind that our results have been largely similar to last year's despite our biggest contributors dropping off or being unavailable. The extent of development in a variety of players' games this year has been nothing short of phenomenal. It's a pity it's been masked by others dropping off. I accept that this is only my opinion but I think we've improved out of sight for much of this year (disregarding the past fortnight), but it hasn't explicitly shown in results. I have no doubt that many of the intricacies of our game have improved. We score more freely, we spread more effectively, we tackle more efficiently, we defend more ruthlessly, we dispose of the ball more accurately and we make better decisions with ball in hand; the list goes on. Not everybody will agree with what I'm saying and that's fine; I'm more than happy to be one-out if it comes to that - I just personally feel as though we've improved in a lot of areas. If I were to add a fully fit Griffen and Minson into our side, as well as an in-form Wallis for much of the year I have little doubt we'd have ended up with 10-12 wins (which for many seems to be the difference between a 'failure' and a 'success'). I can't say that about last year, where many of these players played well.

As for your questions, I'll address them separately.

Where exactly did u see progress in the way we transition out of defense?
From kick-outs we don't just clear the 50 on the left wing and watch as players congregate at that point, necessitating a pack mark or free kick, as we did last year. Instead, our players run forward-like leading patterns and we seek shorter options - often along the wings. We tend to target runners and good ball users to ensure the ball is in the hands of the right player (unfortunately, we don't have enough of them - but that's a list management concern rather than development of the side). When there are no options or they're deemed too dangerous we clear the 50 and target the wings to ensure a) the ball doesn't rocket back through the corridor, and b) we don't commit turnovers inside opponent 50. Our running patterns in kick outs are greatly improved, both up the ground and closer to the opponent's goal. On loose balls, there is a much clearer system than there was last year. Those with little chance of winning the ball (or if we have too many numbers in the contest) position themselves behind the contest, ready to provide tackling pressure should the opposition move it out, and to give options in space if we are to dispose of it. Last year we'd overcrowd the contest and force stoppage after stoppage. Further up the ground, sweepers set up more efficiently to ensure they're prepared for rushed kicks. On turnovers, we react more quickly and begin to run to open the ground up and provide options further downfield. However, transitioning the ball remains a concern, but I contend that many of the issues are list management related moreso than structural; ie. we have too many players that don't adhere to structure (Higgins is the first that comes to mind that rarely reads his role as well as he needs to), not enough good kicks and not enough speed.

When actually did we beat a team and cause an upset or dominate through superior team ethos?
Cause an upset: Richmond (the big one - never gave in even when things collapsed around us), Collingwood, Gold Coast. All of these were against much more fancied teams and featured periods where we lost touch and through courage, teamwork and persistence, managed to get back on top. Others weren't upsets but also showed this ethos, like games against GWS and Melbourne.
Dominated: None. But dominated in periods? Gold Coast (four goals in a row), Richmond (four goals in a row twice), GWS (six in a row to win the game), Adelaide (four in a row), Essendon (five in a row), Gold Coast again (four in a row, then six in a row later on), Collingwood (four in a row), Melbourne (seven in a row) and St Kilda (four in a row). That's without even mentioning obscure stats like "six out of the last seven goals" and such. Inconsistency is hurting us here but that's the same for most sides in our position.

When did all the unrelated individual good news snippets you love to throw up on the boards tie together to produce a result?
For the most part, it hasn't. And I've maintained that stance throughout the year. I can see parts of our game - those that I've already mentioned, as well as manning up more tightly, guarding hurried kicks from the opposition, playing more quickly, etc - improving (or at the very least, improving from where we were last year), but as you say, it hasn't come together regularly enough. I seem to get pegged as an unwavering 'pro-Macca' acolyte but in truth I'm far from - I see where we're improving, but I also see where we're not. There are areas of the game that we need to improve out of sight that are largely McCartney's responsibility, and without turning this into a McCartney thread, I'm not trying to say with these posts that he's doing everything perfectly and we're on target in every single variable. We're not. All I'm trying to say is that there are many areas of the game in which we have improved. Have they come together regularly yet? No, and in the end that is the team's biggest test.

I'm not trying to say that we're definitively on the right path - as I need to see much more before I have total faith in our direction - but there are a lot of areas of our game that are moving forward at a steady rate from my perspective. I appreciate that not everybody sees them as I do - it is just an opinion after all - but to my eyes we are progressing faster than most give us credit for. Unfortunately for us, this improvement has coincided with the loss (or loss compared to last year) of some extremely important pieces which, in my opinion, has masked our progress.

Great Reply - I may not agree at all with the second answer about beating Richmond (who went of to lose 7 in a row) GCFC (first week no Yablett) or Collingwood (who have been average at best all year) and losing a bunch of winnables (poor teams make a habit of losing when they should be winning).

My concern, and i ask you for your opinion, has to do with player management, selection and positional structures which have been haphazard and bewildering all year (coupled with game day blunders)

Here is what is unjustifiable to my mind: (Dannn whats ur take on...)

-Playing with one sole ruckman all year (then dropping him and playing two new ruckman together as if 1 minson = 1campbell + 1 cordy
for mine Campbell and Cordy should both have notched up at least 8 games each this year alongside minson and helped out)
-Higgins and Dahls role - both were below par no matter what the stat sheets say because they are not able to play those positions effectively (horses for course) some players can play anywhere others cant simple and btw do we really need dahl in the middle?
-Playing injured players (no explanation needed)
-Selecting players straight back after 3-4week injuries without a vfl game or two
-extremely harsh on some (Macrea vs Cooney)- soft as butter on others
-grinding roughhead into the ground
-Not getting games into guys like Talia and Roberts for Austin

The coach is laboriously consistent with the message he wants to award effort, yet we have seen quite the opposite

 

[LondonBulldog]

Voted "No" on the grounds that I expected more wins. Our biggest winning margin of 28 points (hope that changes by Sunday) isn't that impressive either. I'm not convinced on the ability of the coaching staff to get the most out of the playing group, although as many have already mentioned, the youngsters are coming along well

Are they laughing at us recruiting Bontempelli? Macrae? Stringer? Hrovat? Please clarify

Its easy to pick low picks such as the above mentioned, half of us here on big footy could do that for free. The money in recruiting is getting picks from 30 plus. Howard was a shocker and clearly over-rated by us. Fuller was listed 86 on the list of a club that is top 4. Fact. So we overvalued him, a 23 year old back pocket...gee just what we needed.

 

[Easty]

Its easy to pick low picks such as the above mentioned, half of us here on big footy could do that for free. The money in recruiting is getting picks from 30 plus. Howard was a shocker and clearly over-rated by us. Fuller was listed 86 on the list of a club that is top 4. Fact. So we overvalued him, a 23 year old back pocket...gee just what we needed.

We got 1 wrong (although give him a full pre-season and 2 in-tact shoulders before we completely write him off) out of our last 7-8 picks arguably.

Should me a club with a better strike rate over the last to years.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Great Reply - I may not agree at all with the second answer about beating Richmond (who went of to lose 7 in a row) GCFC (first week no Yablett) or Collingwood (who have been average at best all year) and losing a bunch of winnables (poor teams make a habit of losing when they should be winning).

My concern, and i ask you for your opinion, has to do with player management, selection and positional structures which have been haphazard and bewildering all year (coupled with game day blunders)

Here is what is unjustifiable to my mind: (Dannn whats ur take on...)

-Playing with one sole ruckman all year (then dropping him and playing two new ruckman together as if 1 minson = 1campbell + 1 cordy
for mine Campbell and Cordy should both have notched up at least 8 games each this year alongside minson and helped out)
-Higgins and Dahls role - both were below par no matter what the stat sheets say because they are not able to play those positions effectively (horses for course) some players can play anywhere others cant simple and btw do we really need dahl in the middle?
-Playing injured players (no explanation needed)
-Selecting players straight back after 3-4week injuries without a vfl game or two
-extremely harsh on some (Macrea vs Cooney)- soft as butter on others
-grinding roughhead into the ground
-Not getting games into guys like Talia and Roberts for Austin

The coach is laboriously consistent with the message he wants to award effort, yet we have seen quite the opposite

Richmond were a shadow of their 2013 self when we faced them but they were still tracking better than we were and still had more talent across the ground; regardless of their form after that it was still an upset. Gold Coast I'll give you but it was still a nice win over a side very, very similarly placed to us - yet with a lot more high picks. Collingwood I can't agree on to be honest; until mid-season they were very good. From round 5 to round 18 they were entrenched in the top eight, and were in the top four for a total of four weeks in that period, and deemed a top four threat by season's end for much of that stretch. The win against them was big, even if they look awful now. Losing the winnables I agree was a disappointment.

Many of your concerns are the same as mine but I'll do my best to give my thoughts on each of them (note that I'm not commenting on whether or not they're right unless I explicitly say so - just commenting on what I think we were doing):

Playing the sole ruck
For much of the year we've been trying to find a forward structure that provides defensive accountability and, most importantly, kicks goals. Unfortunately Campbell is quite poor defensively and he couldn't make the most of his opportunities when forward. I agree that Minson ideally gained more support but Campbell was playing ordinary football up forward and deserved to be dropped. As well as this, we see him as a future #1 ruckman - he's not going to develop into that by playing 80% of a game up forward, and only 20% in the ruck. It was better for his development to spend 80-90% of the game in the ruck at Footscray. Cordy, quite simply, was not ready. This was the first year he's been developed as a ruckman and his first year undisturbed by injuries. We were taking a cautious approach and treating him as if he were a new recruit. He's progressed nicely at Footscray. We can't know for sure whether this has helped them or not, but until Campbell got injured in the Sydney game he looked effective in the ruck, and Cordy looked much improved - that's all we can really ask for. Ideally Minson had more support but not at the expense of exposing Campbell/Cordy when they weren't ready/were playing shocking footy. We tried to give Jones and Redpath more responsibility in this area but both were well beaten.

Higgins and Dahlhaus' roles
I am in agreement on Higgins - I don't think he ever becomes a consistently excellent half back sweeper. Dahlhaus, on the other hand, played excellent football for the first half of the season. He gives us run and carry as well as extra pressure through the midfield, which I believe we need. He's played some tremendous games this season in my opinion. I would like to see him closer to goal a little more regularly but he's added a lot to our midfield mix this season and, for the most part, played some fantastic footy. Has been poor for a month or so though.

Playing injured players/putting guys straight back into the lineup after injury
I tend to think we bring guys back a bit too early on occasion (eg. Cooney), and have left guys on the field that we probably shouldn't have (eg. Wallis) but I don't think we can overlook how much the players themselves contribute to this. Bomber Thompson chastised Joe Daniher a couple of weeks back because Joe said he was ready to play, but played a poor game. All the coaches have to go off of is a medical report (which is solely the club medic's responsibility), the player's word (which, as seen above, plays a big part for even the best coaches), and training results. If a player like Cooney was cleared by the club doctors, said he was ready to play, and tore up training (which can be done even if they are about to play a s**t game), what is the coach to do? Similarly, if Wallis said he was right to go back on and McKenzie said there was no significant damage, the coaches aren't going to leave an important player on the bench when the game is there to be won. I don't think we can pass too much judgement on this without knowing the intricacies.

Harsh on some and not on others
I agree for the most part and think the treatment of some players has been different to others. There may be reasons for this that I'm unaware of, but it's something that's concerned me at times as well.

Grinding Roughead into the ground
Perhaps - but if we are to believe that the coaches don't think Talia/Roberts are ready (which is supported by the fact that they're not getting games) who exactly can we play? Young isn't a 1v1 defender. Wood is undersized. Austin is an average third tall and can't take the big boys without the universe exploding and me crying at how badly he's getting beaten. If Roberts and Talia aren't quite ready, what's the difference between grinding Rough into the ground and grinding one of those two into the ground? We simply don't have a lot of options. I know you clearly have a different view with Roberts and Talia but, rightly or wrongly, the coach thinks they're not up to it and doesn't see any feasible way that they improve by getting smashed. I touch on this more closely in the next section but we don't exactly have a lot of options. Roughead is a more mature, stronger body and a very resilient character - he's unlikely to be affected too much when he's beaten. The others may be more vulnerable.

Not getting games into Talia/Roberts instead of Austin
This is one that I don't know the answer to and am merely speculating. I personally believe that one of them should have been getting games, however, until we know what the reasoning is, it's hard for us to say it was a bad move. If both come in from round 1 next year and are mainstays in our best 22, it becomes an inspired move, even if we can't quite see it. From my perspective though, the biggest thing with key defenders is their cohesiveness as a unit - that is, how well they play together. They can't develop this with one in the VFL and one in the AFL. Perhaps their issues are more likely to be ironed out at VFL level. There are a variety of circumstances that can explain it, and I don't think making a call just yet is appropriate.

I hope it's realised that I'm not standing up for all of these - simply saying that, in my mind, there could be more meaningful answers than, "The coach hates Talia/Roberts;" or, "The coaches are favouring Cooney for no reason." I actually share a lot of your criticisms and have some of my own as well (laughable team defense, unwillingness to play two legitimate key forwards, frustratingly poor goal kicking, etc), but I just don't think a lot of them can be accurately adjudicated just yet. There are things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and in my mind, next year will show just how effective some of these calls have been.

*Note: mods, please advise if this strays too far into 'BMac discussion' territory - for now I think they're legitimate questions about our structure and team selection this year that belong in this thread but can see how one might disagree.

 

[King Harold]

We got 1 wrong (although give him a full pre-season and 2 in-tact shoulders before we completely write him off) out of our last 7-8 picks arguably.

Should me a club with a better strike rate over the last to years.

Sorry I'm with London on this one , there was not one highlight on Fullers reel that convinced me he was anywhere AFL standard , so if you are going to draft a 23 year old you better get it right.
Slow , small back flanker that is what he is and that is what we got !

 

[umpotato]

Heyya guys, long-time listener, hardly-ever poster.

I should preface this by mentioning that I am only able to view the games online. Having said that, I really have not seen much improvement over the duration of this year at all. It is great that we have lots of "young guns" coming through - oh if only we were the only team that had exciting youth - but we AS A TEAM continually make the same friggen mistakes again and again.

We never improved out kick outs over the course of the season, just relied on that same-old chip kick then bomb to the boundary.

We still have too many guys in at the contests. This is why we will never beat a team like Essendon and why St. Kilda always beat us while we were up. We need a sheepdog around the packs! It is all good "doing the hard stuff, putting your head over it, winning the contested ball blah blah blah" but it is no good if there is nobody to give the bloody pill to.

The lacking a key forward mentality needs to stop too. Under Eade we were so unpredictable going forward and managed to manufacture goals with ease. The only reason we are craving a key forward is because we are currently playing as if he is already there, parked 20 out from goal. We are not playing to anyone's advantage at the moment.

McCartney continually mentioned our "one bad quarter" in every press conference, alongside other greatest hits such as "good young men", "doing the right things" and "has a great family", but did we ever put a stop to this? The same mental demons crept in: trail behind, come back to within single digits, watch the opposition blaze away.

But the number one annoyance that I feel will never change is that nobody ever provides a friggen option when taking the ball out of defense. I could not count how many times our players jog forward of the ball alongside their direct opponent, back to the ball handler, refusing to make body contact and split for a short lead. Perhaps it is due to lack of fitness, but this also happens early on in games.

This is not intended as a dig at Brendan McCartney as I feel the responsibility should also lie on others such as forward line coaches and what not, but apart from some new talent/VFL/individuals, what actually have we developed this season AS A TEAM? Port have their running, Melbourne have their defense, Bulldogs have their................................. ?

Again I must mention that as I am unable to get down to the games, I have only the television coverage to go by.

 

[theAthenian]

Richmond were a shadow of their 2013 self when we faced them but they were still tracking better than we were and still had more talent across the ground; regardless of their form after that it was still an upset. Gold Coast I'll give you but it was still a nice win over a side very, very similarly placed to us - yet with a lot more high picks. Collingwood I can't agree on to be honest; until mid-season they were very good. From round 5 to round 18 they were entrenched in the top eight, and were in the top four for a total of four weeks in that period, and deemed a top four threat by season's end for much of that stretch. The win against them was big, even if they look awful now. Losing the winnables I agree was a disappointment.

Many of your concerns are the same as mine but I'll do my best to give my thoughts on each of them (note that I'm not commenting on whether or not they're right unless I explicitly say so - just commenting on what I think we were doing):

Playing the sole ruck
For much of the year we've been trying to find a forward structure that provides defensive accountability and, most importantly, kicks goals. Unfortunately Campbell is quite poor defensively and he couldn't make the most of his opportunities when forward. I agree that Minson ideally gained more support but Campbell was playing ordinary football up forward and deserved to be dropped. As well as this, we see him as a future #1 ruckman - he's not going to develop into that by playing 80% of a game up forward, and only 20% in the ruck. It was better for his development to spend 80-90% of the game in the ruck at Footscray. Cordy, quite simply, was not ready. This was the first year he's been developed as a ruckman and his first year undisturbed by injuries. We were taking a cautious approach and treating him as if he were a new recruit. He's progressed nicely at Footscray. We can't know for sure whether this has helped them or not, but until Campbell got injured in the Sydney game he looked effective in the ruck, and Cordy looked much improved - that's all we can really ask for. Ideally Minson had more support but not at the expense of exposing Campbell/Cordy when they weren't ready/were playing shocking footy. We tried to give Jones and Redpath more responsibility in this area but both were well beaten.

Higgins and Dahlhaus' roles
I am in agreement on Higgins - I don't think he ever becomes a consistently excellent half back sweeper. Dahlhaus, on the other hand, played excellent football for the first half of the season. He gives us run and carry as well as extra pressure through the midfield, which I believe we need. He's played some tremendous games this season in my opinion. I would like to see him closer to goal a little more regularly but he's added a lot to our midfield mix this season and, for the most part, played some fantastic footy. Has been poor for a month or so though.

Playing injured players/putting guys straight back into the lineup after injury
I tend to think we bring guys back a bit too early on occasion (eg. Cooney), and have left guys on the field that we probably shouldn't have (eg. Wallis) but I don't think we can overlook how much the players themselves contribute to this. Bomber Thompson chastised Joe Daniher a couple of weeks back because Joe said he was ready to play, but played a poor game. All the coaches have to go off of is a medical report (which is solely the club medic's responsibility), the player's word (which, as seen above, plays a big part for even the best coaches), and training results. If a player like Cooney was cleared by the club doctors, said he was ready to play, and tore up training (which can be done even if they are about to play a s**t game), what is the coach to do? Similarly, if Wallis said he was right to go back on and McKenzie said there was no significant damage, the coaches aren't going to leave an important player on the bench when the game is there to be won. I don't think we can pass too much judgement on this without knowing the intricacies.

Harsh on some and not on others
I agree for the most part and think the treatment of some players has been different to others. There may be reasons for this that I'm unaware of, but it's something that's concerned me at times as well.

Grinding Roughead into the ground
Perhaps - but if we are to believe that the coaches don't think Talia/Roberts are ready (which is supported by the fact that they're not getting games) who exactly can we play? Young isn't a 1v1 defender. Wood is undersized. Austin is an average third tall and can't take the big boys without the universe exploding and me crying at how badly he's getting beaten. If Roberts and Talia aren't quite ready, what's the difference between grinding Rough into the ground and grinding one of those two into the ground? We simply don't have a lot of options. I know you clearly have a different view with Roberts and Talia but, rightly or wrongly, the coach thinks they're not up to it and doesn't see any feasible way that they improve by getting smashed. I touch on this more closely in the next section but we don't exactly have a lot of options. Roughead is a more mature, stronger body and a very resilient character - he's unlikely to be affected too much when he's beaten. The others may be more vulnerable.

Not getting games into Talia/Roberts instead of Austin
This is one that I don't know the answer to and am merely speculating. I personally believe that one of them should have been getting games, however, until we know what the reasoning is, it's hard for us to say it was a bad move. If both come in from round 1 next year and are mainstays in our best 22, it becomes an inspired move, even if we can't quite see it. From my perspective though, the biggest thing with key defenders is their cohesiveness as a unit - that is, how well they play together. They can't develop this with one in the VFL and one in the AFL. Perhaps their issues are more likely to be ironed out at VFL level. There are a variety of circumstances that can explain it, and I don't think making a call just yet is appropriate.

I hope it's realised that I'm not standing up for all of these - simply saying that, in my mind, there could be more meaningful answers than, "The coach hates Talia/Roberts;" or, "The coaches are favouring Cooney for no reason." I actually share a lot of your criticisms and have some of my own as well (laughable team defense, unwillingness to play two legitimate key forwards, frustratingly poor goal kicking, etc), but I just don't think a lot of them can be accurately adjudicated just yet. There are things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and in my mind, next year will show just how effective some of these calls have been.

*Note: mods, please advise if this strays too far into 'BMac discussion' territory - for now I think they're legitimate questions about our structure and team selection this year that belong in this thread but can see how one might disagree.

Lots of food for though the question is Dann if u were the admin of the club and had not extended the coaches contract based on the last 3 years would you? Or in the least would u call for a serious review?
I think we shot ourselves in the foot on this one.

 

[Ant_]

Treading water this year, for all the growth we saw in our kids we seemed to make the same mistakes as we did last year.

Still on the fence regarding our coach / direction however ...

The learning & teaching explanations to losses won't wash with me next year.