Opinion Has this Carlton list already peaked?

[Fadge]

It wasn't intended to say he was better than anyone that didn't meet that threshold no. It's the same as if I post a goal assist tally it doesn't mean the player at the top is the best player in the AFL.

You grouped him in the same company as Daicos, JHF, Warner and Rankine....

But no, you weren't talking him up.

 

[carlton_99]

Your diagnosis has been around set up at stoppages and around contests.

It hasn't actually mentioned ball use as an issue. So, if this Carlton side had Hollands, Newman and Boyd in it - would the team's ball use be to a premiership standard? If not, then what changes need to be made?

I have posted about more than just stoppages on the "areas for improvement" thread on our board.

I think our ball movement is made to look worse than it is because a lack of movement ahead of the ball both when exiting D50 and also kicking i50. I have said for a long time I don't think our forwards lead enough - especially Curnow. And when we are exiting D50 I think the absence of movement ahead of the ball makes the long kick down the line the only real option which stagnates transition.

 

[Mr Meow]

You grouped him in the same company as Daicos, JHF, Warner and Rankine....

But no, you weren't talking him up.

He also wasn't comparing him to other players apparently.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I agree on the first bit. It is worrying if those are 3 of your 4 most exceptional ball users. Your squad should be filled with players that meet that level of competent ball use. Most clubs would lose 3 players like that and not much would change at all with their defensive to offensive transition.

So why are u arguing about any of this nonsense?

Me and C99 said from the beginning that missing those 3 was dire to Carlton due to other list deficiencies (a lack of quality ball users on the list) and instantly we were met with they're all s***, overrated and that we were using their absences to excuse our losses this year.

Oh, and that Toby Conway was a bigger loss than any of them.

 

[carlton_99]

You grouped him in the same company as Daicos, JHF, Warner and Rankine....

But no, you weren't talking him up.

I was talking him up as an important player for the team. I was not saying he has done anything yet to justify being a top 5 young player in the comp

 

[Mr Meow]

I have posted about more than just stoppages on the "areas for improvement" thread on our board.

I think our ball movement is made to look worse than it is because a lack of movement ahead of the ball both when exiting D50 and also kicking i50. I have said for a long time I don't think our forwards lead enough - especially Curnow. And when we are exiting D50 I think the absence of movement ahead of the ball makes the long kick down the line the only real option which stagnates transition.

So the issue is on leading/lack of spread, rather than a deficiency in skill or decision making across the squad? This is not me putting words in your mouth. "Correct" or "incorrect" is the simplest response to this so that we don't engage in theatrics.

 

[Fadge]

So why are u arguing all about any of this nonsense?

Me and C99 said from the beginning that missing those 3 was dire to Carlton due to other list deficiencies (a lack of quality ball users on the list) and instantly we were met with they're all s***, overrated and that we were using their absences to excuse our losses this year.

Didn't you guys spend all off season telling us Carlton had no issues with their depth?

Now all of a sudden, the absence of Newman, E. Hollands and Boyd is 'dire'?

 

[carlton_99]

So the issue is on leading/lack of spread, rather than a deficiency in skill or decision making across the squad? This is not me putting words in your mouth. "Correct" or "incorrect" is the simplest response to this so that we don't engage in theatrics.

No. I have spoken about us not being a strong kicking team in the past but that is a list issue. We can't change the list demographic during the season so my analysis in-season is about what we can actually change.

And the players need to work harder ahead of the ball to create options for the player with the ball. Whether that's by leading to get it yourself or spreading from others giving them more space themselves etc. Decoy leads are a big part of this i50.

There are ways to move the ball even if you don't have a whole heap of elite ball users.

 

[Mr Meow]

So why are u arguing about any of this nonsense?

Me and C99 said from the beginning that missing those 3 was dire to Carlton due to other list deficiencies (a lack of quality ball users on the list) and instantly we were met with they're all s***, overrated and that we were using their absences to excuse our losses this year.

Oh, and that Toby Conway was a bigger loss than any of them.

You both get very emotional around football discussions and end up stuck in loops of "you're a troll! I DEMAND 7 instances where I said those exact words!!!". I try not to engage in such petulant exchanges and stick to clarifying exactly what Carlton's issues are.

The players they are missing or aren't match fit are irrelevant to that discussion IMO. So spending 50 essays and 3 days discussing exactly how competent Newman, Boyd and Holland's ball use is becomes a war of attrition diversionary tactic. It isn't relevant besides the fact that these will never be a premiership winning squads best ball users.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

You both get very emotional around football discussions and end up stuck in loops of "you're a troll! I DEMAND 7 instances where I said those exact words!!!". I try not to engage in such petulant exchanges and stick to clarifying exactly what Carlton's issues are.

The players they are missing or aren't match fit are irrelevant to that discussion IMO. So spending 50 essays and 3 days discussing exactly how competent Newman, Boyd and Holland's ball use is becomes a war of attrition diversionary tactic. It isn't relevant besides the fact that these will never be a premiership winning squads best ball users.

You are a troll, don't get that twisted.

Still waiting to know your answer to whether Curnow's ankle was 100% at the end of last year too!

 

[Mr Meow]

No. I have spoken about us not being a strong kicking team in the past but that is a list issue. We can't change the list demographic during the season so my analysis in-season is about what we can actually change.

And the players need to work harder ahead of the ball to create options for the player with the ball. Whether that's by leading to get it yourself or spreading from others giving them more space themselves etc. Decoy leads are a big part of this i50.

There are ways to move the ball even if you don't have a whole heap of elite ball users.

Fair enough.

I'm not sure Voss has shown he can coach a team with fluent, effective ball movement or a squad of elite decision makers with and without the ball. There is the argument that he has simply been dealt a poor hand. If the former is true, a coach change could see this squad contend. If the latter is true, years of drafting/FA/trading are required to reshape the list.

 

[carlton_99]

Fair enough.

I'm not sure Voss has shown he can coach a team with fluent, effective ball movement or a squad of elite decision makers with and without the ball. There is the argument that he has simply been dealt a poor hand. If the former is true, a coach change could see this squad contend. If the latter is true, years of drafting/FA/trading are required to reshape the list.

I think it's both but regardless the way we are currently playing is well below what this current list is capable of imo. And that's because of poor coaching and player performance to date.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I think it's both but regardless the way we are currently playing is well below what this current list is capable of imo. And that's because of poor coaching and player performance to date.

Precisely

 

[geelong_crazy26]

So a player who was hoping to step up to play a full season this year is more important than a top 2 BnF player?

You're still clinging on to this one?

I also never said Jordan Boyd would change any results of Carlton games. Elijah, Newman and Boyd could come back later this year and us still lose every game we play. They were brought up in regards to our issues transitioning the ball from our defensive 50 this year. That was it.

I haven't claimed Boyd is a superstar player, I haven't claimed Hollands is a superstar either. I just said all 3 players would help us move the ball in transition because they're 3 of our best users.

If you actually read anything you were responding to before posting you might know this.

he is a very talented young ruck and our only ruck option so yes he will make some improvement over a non ruck.

Your excuses need to stop.

Carlton just doesn’t have a quality b23 list. The fact you are telling us VFL standard players are going to improve your ball movement in Boyd says a lot.

Carlton needs a rebuild. The clock is ticking for the top half dozen to win a flag

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I think it's both but regardless the way we are currently playing is well below what this current list is capable of imo. And that's because of poor coaching and player performance to date.

Vossy is a crap coach. You also have probably one of the worst bottom 4-6 in the league as well. Your depth is bad

 

[Mr Meow]

I think it's both but regardless the way we are currently playing is well below what this current list is capable of imo. And that's because of poor coaching and player performance to date.

Yep, this works much better.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

he is a very talented young ruck and our only ruck option so yes he will make some improvement over a non ruck.

Your excuses need to stop.

Carlton just doesn’t have a quality b23 list. The fact you are telling us VFL standard players are going to improve your ball movement in Boyd says a lot.

Carlton needs a rebuild. The clock is ticking for the top half dozen to win a flag

Theres that word excuses again... I suggest watching some Carlton games before commenting next time

 

[boncer34]

So nothing.

So you just posted an arbitrary stat line for no reason?

 

[Yoda_]

How many mid - late national draft selections have Carlton got right?

Either by trades (Hewitt, Saad, McGovern, Cerra) or via early draft selections (Weitering, Cripps, Curnow, McKay). Obviously a few ok role players but how many have grown from a 3rd rounder into a b grade player?

No wonder they went all in on the young fella who did his knee.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

How many mid - late national draft selections have Carlton got right?

Either by trades (Hewitt, Saad, McGovern, Cerra) or via early draft selections (Weitering, Cripps, Curnow, McKay). Obviously a few ok role players but how many have grown from a 3rd rounder into a b grade player?

No wonder they went all in on the young fella who did his knee.

Acres, Hewett, Boyd, Elijah, Cottrell, Newman, Cincotta and Lord (looks to be on his way but still fairly fresh to the AFL program) would be the only real 'finds' with late picks via draft or trade for us of late.

I suspect Carroll will jump into that bracket soon enough for us but he's yet to debut for the time being so can't really say that with any certainty.

 

[Mr Meow]

Acres, Hewett, Boyd, Elijah, Cottrell, Newman, Cincotta and Lord (looks to be on his way but still fairly fresh to the AFL program) would be the only real 'finds' with late picks via draft or trade for us of late.

I suspect Carroll will jump into that bracket soon enough for us but he's yet to debut for the time being so can't really say that with any certainty.

That is some dire work at the draft: either talent identification or development have been poor.

Trade wise, pretty decent.

Use of top top tier picks: very good.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

That is some dire work at the draft: either talent identification or development have been poor.

Trade wise, pretty decent.

Use of top top tier picks: very good.

Boyd, Cottrell, Cincotta and Lord from the rookie draft and SSP is poor talent identification? Not sure how you're judging that as poor when all are perfectly capable AFL players.

 

[Mr Meow]

Boyd, Cottrell, Cincotta and Lord from the rookie draft and SSP is poor talent identification? Not sure how you're judging that as poor when all are perfectly capable AFL players.

Carlton's record from outside the top 10/20 of the draft has been terrible for a while now.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Carlton's record from outside the top 10/20 of the draft has been terrible for a while now.

Alright

 

[Mr Meow]

Alright

Another quick concession, which I appreciate.