In your opinion is Boyd an exceptional kick (rare, outstanding, phenomenal) relative to other players in the competition? Be careful here. Anything other than "I don't know" contradicts your last couple of posts.
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Opinion Has this Carlton list already peaked?
- Thread starter GC2015
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Yes. I think relative to the rest of the competition he is an exceptional kick. That isn't based on a stat just my observation of the games I watch every week across the league.
Who are your top 20, in order? How many games of theirs have you watched? How many games of those who aren't exceptional? You have surely watched a much higher proportion of Boyd's games and kicks.
What percentile marks out "exceptional" for you? Top 2%, 5%, 20%?
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Best kicks overall I wouldn't be able to do that off the top of my head. But I watch a lot of footy and from that my top two are Farrell and Campbell. Ridiculous kicks of the football and they can do it all over the ground.
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No it doesn't. My posts were about using stats alone to evaluate performance. My opinion on Boyd being a great kick is based on me watching most games of football every week. It's not based solely on a stat which is what I was talking about
RCAB
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Let's keeping going down this rabbit hole, shall we?
Let me get this straight…
You: “We can’t just use stats to evaluate players.”
Also you: “Here are the exact stat thresholds that prove Hollands is elite.”
Then when someone else references stats:
“Oh but they didn’t watch the games.”
Mate, you're building a fortress of logic out of wet cardboard.
If you want to say you rate Hollands based on the eye test, cool go with that. But don’t pretend cherry-picked season averages suddenly become gospel just because you happened to be on the couch.
Then how would you mark Boyd out as exceptional if, based on your viewing experience (with stats to confirm), you can't come up with a top 20? Let's say there are 400 regularly playing AFL players. That top 20 would be your 2%. 80 players would make up 20%.
I think it's really stretching it to call players not in the top 20% "exceptional". Top 50, or in the case of AA squad, 44 - marks out exceptional players in a given season. Yes some unlucky ones will miss out, but I think that's closer than a top 100 or 150.
Reducing it to ball use only, maybe Boyd is in the top 40 to 50 players in the league for that metric. "Competent" (able to proficiently and successfully apply skills) puts him more in the 100-200 area. Then we start moving to below average in terms of regular best 23 players (who we see a fair bit of).
If you only judge what you watch though (your words), it's really just guesswork to rank him anywhere in terms of the league. Ranking him within your club only therefore makes more sense.
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No mate I never said you can't use stats to evaluate players. I said you can't ONLY use stats to evaluate players.
If I don't watch a Hawthorn game and then told you I don't think Newcombe played well in that game because he had 5 turnovers it would be moronic.
But if I watched the game and didn't think Newcombe was good because he kicked poorly and then used the 5 turnovers as support from my observation it's much more reasonable.
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RCAB
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In his last 10 VFL games, Boyd ranked 963rd in the league for Score Involvement Percentage.
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That's fair enough. "Exceptional" isn't a term that means a set % or proportion of players. It's like when people use "gun" or "star". They mean different things to different people. I think Boyd is a very good kick based on what I have seen across the competition. Putting an exact % to it would be too difficult for me off the top of my head
Players who are 'exceptional' kicks make you go 'frig me, how did he do that' when they kick a football.
Players for whom I have had that reaction in recent times:
Errol Gulden
James Sicily
Nick Daicos
Nick Larkey
Dustin Martin used to do it.
I saw it from Riley Bice on the weekend.
These are a few examples.
I've never been watching Carlton and had that reaction after a Jordan Boyd kick.
Players for whom I have had that reaction in recent times:
Errol Gulden
James Sicily
Nick Daicos
Nick Larkey
Dustin Martin used to do it.
I saw it from Riley Bice on the weekend.
These are a few examples.
I've never been watching Carlton and had that reaction after a Jordan Boyd kick.
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And that's your opinion.
Me saying Boyd is an exceptional kick is not gospel. It's my opinion.
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Larkey?
What?
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Yeh see I would never have considered someone like Larkey. Great set shot but I don't see him as a good field kick. Doesn't get up the ground much at all for him to utilise his field kicking. This is why it's all subjective.Larkey?
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Larkey one of the most ordinary kicks around. Just has an immaculate set shot routine
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I would see key forwards like Cameron, Curnow and Walker as far better kicks. Their field kicking is another level to a Larkey type imo
Crankyhawk
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I will contribute the influence of psychology- they have been losing so players think “I must do something to lift the team” which manifests as players draw towards the ball (to win contest, reinforced by coaches messages re contest) so separation and run is less; lack of confidence that your team wins the contest so no spread forward of the ball, and focusing on beating your opponent as a defender = less team defence
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This is a very real possibility but it's been an issue for us for a while. Coaches and players had a whole pre-season to adjust this mentality that everyone needs to hunt the ball at every contest. Interestingly enough, Sam Walsh mentioned this issue (i.e., getting sucked into the contest and leaving opposition players free on the outside) in one of his interviews this week. So, at least it's clear they do know it's an problem - just have to fix it now
Yep, I'd agree with that.
But the judgement was about 'exceptional kicks'.
Field kicking is one element.
Goal kicking another.
Larkey, as the best kick for goal in the competition, must be regarded as an 'exceptional kick'.
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Yeh goalkicking wise Larkey and Fogarty are probably top 2 for me.
Crankyhawk
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It’s hard to do without a success experience. And could be why things start well in first half (they may be concentrating on trying not to be sucked into contest) but as game goes on and particularly if the scoreboard is close/ slightly behind, old habits come in. Very hard to change
