Have we addressed our needs this offseason?

[Jelly Bean]

Don't confuse "true mids" with "mids who come from U18's/VFL with an AFL-ready body". We've selected Broomehead who likens himself to Bartel and Kennedy who Hine likens to Crawford. We got mids... they'll just need to be developed.

Don't confuse flankers who can play some midfield minutes with 'true mids'. Hine himself says they are both players who are forward of the ball players, and while he likened Kennedy to Crawford, he also said that he would ultimate help replace Krakouer. Sure, they may end up pushing up through the wings, but neither projects as a pure centreman-type a la Selwood, Mitchell, Kerr, J Kennedy, etc (the type that typically monsters us).

When I mean pure mids, I mean contested ball beasts with hard bodies who would sit in the centre sqaure and demolish any opposition player who even thinks about getting the ball in his zone... I was hoping to get one this draft, have them develop largely in the twos next year, and then start to transition from Ball over the following year.

 

[Number 10]

What's the knock on pongracic?? I really hope we pick him up in the rookie. He's that inside mid that we could develop

 

[Knightmare]

Not happy with Fasolo, Keefe, Grundy, Witts, Kennedy, Elliot, Broomhead, Seedsman, and Thomas as possible high end talent?

Or you're more worried that we don't have enough talent as advanced as say Fasolo?

Of those listed, Fasolo and Keefe (when fit) are probably already best 22.

Seedsman, Sinclair, Paine, Elliot and Williams are all borderline best 22. Do you think Kennedy or Broomhead could push past any of those guys this year? Surely Kennedy would be a chance?

I think Sinclair and Yagmoor could struggle to develop into anything more than solid contributers and will most likely develop into list cloggers. (Sinclair did hit some good form last year and if he can find that form again he will most likely change my views on him).

Fasolo is already best 22. I'd say the same with Keeffe. Both are really established players. Those outside of our best 22 I'm not seeing as any danger of breaking into our top 15 next year or our top 10 at any stage as those really high level players and most of those non best 22 types are more capable role players without being major difference makers.

Grundy, Witts as ruckman won't play regularly till Jolly retires and next year shouldn't be in the best 22 conversation. I'd add Paine and Gault to the list of those I think can breakthrough but I think they are more likely to threaten as regulars in 2014.

Kennedy and Elliott I think can be best 22, sure. But are they going to be more than a 20th/21st player next year?

Broomhead, Seedsman and Thomas probably not. Just not seeing who they go past. Sinclair same. Yagmoor I have much further back until and still feel he is adjusting to the pace - needs to clean some things up before he can even be spoken about as depth.

We've really already developed that top end young quality with the talls still another couple of years away from being regulars.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

With krakour having a few years left and edwards coming through, i think the position is fine, kennedy can play there too. The only area i think we could work on would be a strong big bodied inside mid, definitely target one with our first pick in the next draft.

Surprised you are counting the Wunderkind.

 

[noideaatall]

OP never defined whether it was about our needs for 2013 or for the forseeable future. Looking good for the long term, I get the impression we did the best with the choices we had. Surprised at the level of hysteria around this draft though, a lot seems to rest on the shoulders of Grundy. Hope for his sake he doesn't fail to deliver ...

Facts are I can't see how in any way we have dealt with an inability to kick the ball in (unless I missed the Shaw physical and mental reconstruction news) or our weakness around packs. Re inside: don't give me the 'Ball is back, heaven in our time bs, it wasn't enough for us in 2011. At best we have strengthened our depth but not necessarily improved our best 22 for next year.

Not happy with Fasolo, Keefe, Grundy, Witts, Kennedy, Elliot, Broomhead, Seedsman, and Thomas as possible high end talent?

Personally no. Fasolo looks like he might become someone, as does Keefe but he does have a long way to go as he really has only pasted a handful of games together in one season that mark him out as anything but depth.
The rest have yet to establish themselves as anything at all. For reference think back to the first years of players like pendles, thomas, sidey, beams and (dare I say it) Wellers. Compare them to Elliot, Seedsman, Sinclair and Williams this year. The latter are premiership depth not premiership winners.

We look like we'll be there abouts next year but realistically I think we are setting ourselves up for the future not next year.

 

[Number 10]

Noideaatall - it's very rare to get a first year player who immediately makes your 22 better. That's a bit of a poor criticism. Guys who have impact like Heppel and darling are rare.

 

[Knightmare]

What's the knock on pongracic?? I really hope we pick him up in the rookie. He's that inside mid that we could develop

Not quick as that big bodied inside midfielder and that's the major concern - though I'm not much fussed.

Slow start with injury has clearly hurt him and has mostly played forward this year as opposed to midfield which would have been the hope.

Wins his own ball, has a penetrating kick and can take a mark so well worth drafting and should be one of the better rookie selections.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Noideaatall - it's very rare to get a first year player who immediately makes your 22 better. That's a bit of a poor criticism. Guys who have impact like Heppel and darling are rare.

I think that is what he is saying. If the OP is talking about our needs for next year, then we probably haven't addressed them.

Additionally, some of the players he mentioned aren't first year players - they will in fact be going into their third or fourth preseasons (Sinclair, Seedsman, Thomas, etc).

 

[blaze036]

Not quick as that big bodied inside midfielder and that's the major concern - though I'm not much fussed.

Slow start with injury has clearly hurt him and has mostly played forward this year as opposed to midfield which would have been the hope.

Wins his own ball, has a penetrating kick and can take a mark so well worth drafting and should be one of the better rookie selections.

Would Boston be worth a rookie spot? surprised he wasn't drafted.

 

[Number 10]

I think that is what he is saying. If the OP is talking about our needs for next year, then we probably haven't addressed them.

Additionally, some of the players he mentioned aren't first year players - they will in fact be going into their third or fourth preseasons (Sinclair, Seedsman, Thomas, etc).

I must have interpretted it the wrong way..

He did say we haven't improved our best 22 through the draft, only added to depth, Which I think is a bit rich for a criticism of our drafting.

 

[Hagla]

Fasolo is already best 22. I'd say the same with Keeffe. Both are really established players. Those outside of our best 22 I'm not seeing as any danger of breaking into our top 15 next year or our top 10 at any stage as those really high level players and most of those non best 22 types are more capable role players without being major difference makers.

Grundy, Witts as ruckman won't play regularly till Jolly retires and next year shouldn't be in the best 22 conversation. I'd add Paine and Gault to the list of those I think can breakthrough but I think they are more likely to threaten as regulars in 2014.

Kennedy and Elliott I think can be best 22, sure. But are they going to be more than a 20th/21st player next year?

Broomhead, Seedsman and Thomas probably not. Just not seeing who they go past. Sinclair same. Yagmoor I have much further back until and still feel he is adjusting to the pace - needs to clean some things up before he can even be spoken about as depth.

We've really already developed that top end young quality with the talls still another couple of years away from being regulars.

Ok, I can see which angle you are taking now. So you are more worried about players who can have an imediate impact than you are about the talent as a whole? To be fair I don't think many would have predicted our 2010 side to be so different from the start of the season to the Premiership team at the end.

Round 1

Collingwood
B: Alan Toovey, Simon Prestigiacomo, Tarkyn Lockyer
HB: Harry O’Brien, Nick Maxwell, Heath Shaw
C: Luke Ball, Dane Swan, Ben Johnson
HF: Josh Fraser, John Anthony, Alan Didak
F: Paul Medhurst, Travis Cloke, Leon Davis
Foll: Darren Jolly, Scott Pendlebury, Dale Thomas
I/C: Shane O’Bree, Sharrod Wellingham, Steele Sidebottom, Leigh Brown
Emg: Dayne Beams, Nathan Brown, Brent Macaffer
New: Luke Ball (St Kilda), Darren Jolly (Sydney Swans)

Grand Final replay

Collingwood
B: Nick Maxwell, Nathan Brown, Alan Toovey
HB: Harry O'Brien, Ben Reid, Heath Shaw
C: Sharrod Wellingham, Dane Swan, Ben Johnson
HF: Alan Didak, Travis Cloke, Luke Ball
F: Dayne Beams, Chris Dawes, Steele Sidebottom
Foll: Darren Jolly, Scott Pendlebury, Dale Thomas
I/C: Tyson Goldsack, Leigh Brown, Brent Macaffer, Jarryd Blair
Emg: John McCarthy, Tarkyn Lockyer, Simon Prestigiacomo

7 changes from Round 1 to the Grand Final replay. I can't see us having that much change throughout the year next year but I also can't see the need for so much change either. We don't need to change just for the sake of change but whether we like it or not I dare say our team will look quite a bit different by the end of the season. I agree that not all of those changes will be from youngsters but that's the beauty of free agency. We've been able to target weaknesses and bring in ready made players, meaning we won't rely so heavily on our younger players to come on. Anyway I did want to look a few other things up and I had more to say but I need to go into work for a bit so I'll be back to keep discussing it a bit later

 

[Knightmare]

Would Boston be worth a rookie spot? surprised he wasn't drafted.

The club are said to have interest so we might certainly consider him.

I always considered Boston more of a late/rookie type prospect. Really excellent user of the footy by foot and excellent at making something happen with ball in hand but not the elite inside player and doesn't have those other features so not sure where he can really fit.

Personally not sure we need him, particularly if we are looking at Sam Dwyer who is much the same thing with more experience and more immediate impact but we'll see what the club have in mind soon enough.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I must have interpretted it the wrong way..

He did say we haven't improved our best 22 through the draft, only added to depth, Which I think is a bit rich for a criticism of our drafting.

Yeah, that is what he is saying. I don't necessarily think he is criticising our drafting, but just saying that we haven't improved our 22 for next year (in response to the OP question of have we addressed our needs). So he was making the statement (that I think we agree with) that if the needs refer to next year, we haven't improved them through the draft (and nor should we typically be expected to).

 

[blaze036]

The club are said to have interest so we might certainly consider him.

I always considered Boston more of a late/rookie type prospect. Really excellent user of the footy by foot and excellent at making something happen with ball in hand but not the elite inside player and doesn't have those other features so not sure where he can really fit.

Personally not sure we need him, particularly if we are looking at Sam Dwyer who is much the same thing with more experience and more immediate impact but we'll see what the club have in mind soon enough.

I think boston and haynes would be great gets.. add some high quality ball use and much needed pace. Maybe them and dwyer? We have three spots open don't we?

 

[Knightmare]

Ok, I can see which angle you are taking now. So you are more worried about players who can have an imediate impact than you are about the talent as a whole? To be fair I don't think many would have predicted our 2010 side to be so different from the start of the season to the Premiership team at the end.




7 changes from Round 1 to the Grand Final replay. I can't see us having that much change throughout the year next year but I also can't see the need for so much change either. We don't need to change just for the sake of change but whether we like it or not I dare say our team will look quite a bit different by the end of the season. I agree that not all of those changes will be from youngsters but that's the beauty of free agency. We've been able to target weaknesses and bring in ready made players, meaning we won't rely so heavily on our younger players to come on. Anyway I did want to look a few other things up and I had more to say but I need to go into work for a bit so I'll be back to keep discussing it a bit later

It's more I don't see what elevates our list from what we are today.

The offseason additions are our chance to elevate our team as opposed to those others on our list who are still developing.

I do agree and feel you are right that we don't need much change with that best 22, best 30 absolutely good enough to win with so it's not an issue.

In any case none of this is a major problem and our youth (even post since 2008 when we drafted Beams and Sidebottom) is perfectly fine even while having targetted those more immediate players at the same time and have done a great job capitalising on value when the opportunity has been there - Fasolo, Paine and now Grundy particularly incredible value selections with Witts, Elliott, Gault and Kennedy not bad gets either.

 

[Number 10]

Yeah, that is what he is saying. I don't necessarily think he is criticising our drafting, but just saying that we haven't improved our 22 for next year (in response to the OP question of have we addressed our needs). So he was making the statement (that I think we agree with) that if the needs refer to next year, we haven't improved them through the draft (and nor should we typically be expected to).

Ahh yes now I understand. My bad. He is correct in the summation but it was a fairly negative post so I just took it as a criticism.

Fwiw I think we have set ourselves as best we possibly could within our constraints. Cap etc. depth improved, best 22 improved.

 

[Knightmare]

I think boston and haynes would be great gets.. add some high quality ball use and much needed pace. Maybe them and dwyer? We have three spots open don't we?

Neither necessarily high on my list but I think both can be in the mix and could certainly be selected by a team this rookie draft as two of the more recognised likely possible rookie selections.

I'd be happy with any of:

Dayle Garlett, Jason Pongracic (inside mid with a long kick, strong marking ability and strong contested ballwinning ability and ability to play forward), Zac Williams (strong inside midfielder who around the stoppages is as good as any yet to be selected), Harley Montgomery (small defender with a particularly impressive shutdown game but also a nice rebounder), Tom Langdon (tall backman who really improved strongly this year with particularly impressive late season form), Louis Herbert (athletic medium forward with some real overhead marking ability and loves a goal), Leigh Osborne (mature offensive back flanker) and Sam Dwyer (mature inside mid/fwd).

 

[Quicky]

Yep I'll cop that. Overlooked him, if he goes down we'll be relying on Paine and Lynch which will have a big impact. I guess we'd also have to take a look at both Witts and Grundy in that circumstance to see if there is any chance they'd be able to provide a big target up forward (unlikely they'd be ready but still a possible avenue).

I think if Cloke went down we would see a bit of a structural reshuffle. Reid would move to CHF with Brown FB and Keeffe CHB. That would make the most sense in terms of structure in my mind.

Mostly a midfielder. More inside than outside and despite his size can win his own ball/get into position to win it. Can also play some forward, take a mark and get into the space left behind as more that smart type. Very good user of the footy and really stands out with his delivery into the forward 50 finding those targets.

Sounds like exactly what we need!

 

[sworf]

Who do we have as a long term kick out in the backline? Seemed to struggle a bit with kick-ins this year which stood out coming off leons elite kicking last year. Reading the mocks I was hoping for someone like sam colquhoun but he didn't even get drafted in the end. Do we have someone in the squad already that could be an option over the next 5 years+ ?

 

[Quicky]

I think that is what he is saying. If the OP is talking about our needs for next year, then we probably haven't addressed them.

Additionally, some of the players he mentioned aren't first year players - they will in fact be going into their third or fourth preseasons (Sinclair, Seedsman, Thomas, etc).

I disagree.

Needs:
A key forward/relief ruck = Lynch (tick)
An outside linking midfielder = Young (tick)
A medium rebounding defender = Russell (tick)

All immediate players which address needs for next season. We look to be picking up Dwyer who would also be a mature inside midfield option.

Add to that how well we did in the draft itself and we have done incredibly well this offseason.

FWIW I think Kennedy has scope to be a centre bounce midfielder with time and development. That he doesn't have height and size I don't think will limit him. Think of players such as Kerr who are similar in height and size and perhaps stylistically that relish that role.

 

[NT.Thunder]

I don't think we've done a better job addressing our needs since when we added Jolly and Ball in that same offseason. Like that great 09 offseason this offseason has a similar feel where we have just nailed it.

From free agency to trade week to the draft.

We most needed a ruckman. Got the best in the draft with Grundy.

We needed a no.2 ruckman not called Dawes - got Lynch.

We needed more footskills after poor midfield delivery all year - got Young.

Needed more explosive pace - drafted Kennedy.

Needed better backline depth with S.Buckley not sufficient - got Russell.


Why it's such a good offseason is because we not only addressed the key needs but did it by adding quality players to fill these needs which is the only way to do it. We're genuinely in the mix for a premiership after this draft and I'm liking the balance of our list now. We've worked every stage beautifully and now in a position to do some damage and scare some teams if things can come together and key players can remain healthy.


I still have some queries as to whether we have enough high end young talents coming through and whether those developing non best 22 types can push past our current senior players (most have more of a good depth but not best 22 feel - most specifically the smalls and medium sizers), but I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Curious on this....I know you follow these things closer than i do but I actually was under the impression that Young's delivery wasnt 1 of his stronger points. Maybe this is a furfey and has just been tarnished with that speculative brush we often wave around. I'm excited about Young and for that matter Russel as they have really only lacked consistency and if they can capture their individual best form from years gone by, i see them best 22.

In terms of addressing our needs, I think we were lucky in that apart from the ruck position we really don't have any severe deficiencies. Grabbing Grundy has sorted this out, couldnt be happier. I was happy to actually keep Wood and give him another season to see if he could find some mongrel, but after just looking at Grundy....he has more than enough mongrel and looks to be a fierce competitor...The type of young ruckman that supporters will love. I just hope that he stays injury free knowing how punishing the position can be.

 

[Matz]

This is more what I'm getting at. Beams/Sidebottom/Fasolo are all established best 22 players. Our high end young talent is excellent and despite trading those early picks away these past seasons we still have one of the better young cores. My question is who outside that best 22 is going to threaten and be best 22 next year? It's pretty clear with the sheer quantity of list turnover these past 3 seasons that the bottom end of our list is a long way off that top end of the list.

Of those young types outside of our best 22 who is going to break into the senior side as a regular next year or 2014? Paine and Elliott can become regulars perhaps in next year, maybe 2014 along with Kennedy and then Grundy, Gault and Witts eventually but I'm not seeing that sheer quantity of young guys coming through and breaking past veterains as we had in 2010 when we had Beams, Sidebottom, Wellingham, Reid, Brown, Dawes, Macaffer, Toovey and a whole group of others really elevate their games along with the offseason additions with Jolly and Ball and as a result it kicked O'Bree, Lockyer and other veterains out of that best side. This season I'm not seeing that same number of players really pushing through and past existing best 22 players as I can see from say Geelong who have that really high end young group as demonstrated by the success they had late season and by winning the VFL premiership. Just so much quality outside that best 22 who could in a similar way to us in 2010 really break through and past those better known veterains.

I'm not suggesting Geelong go all the way and win the premiership - I think they are still lacking some that quantity of quality through the midfield and they could struggle against those teams with the strong inside groups but that young group they have with that sheer quantity of high level talent coming through is really something and something we don't have that same level of.

would it be fair to say that we should be trying our hardest to emulate Geelongs VFL setup ? I still think they are ahead of most at the moment when it comes to players coming through the system, they just seem to bring in big bodied kids who can play straight away. Stephen Wells has done a very good job.

 

[Knightmare]

Who do we have as a long term kick out in the backline? Seemed to struggle a bit with kick-ins this year which stood out coming off leons elite kicking last year. Reading the mocks I was hoping for someone like sam colquhoun but he didn't even get drafted in the end. Do we have someone in the squad already that could be an option over the next 5 years+ ?

Port Adelaide want Colquhoun. Has really nice endurance and finds his targets by foot but penetration not huge and not that super high hurt factor type by foot as Josh Toy is so I'd be looking for something a touch better if possible. Colquhoun defensively probably isn't good enough for my liking and can get beaten 1v1 and in the air. Pace nothing special either so I'd pass.

The really elite kicks in our squad are Reid, Clarke, Young and Fasolo. Fasolo I suggest remains more of a high half forward - playmaker type who can find those inside 50 targets. Young also more damaging forward of centre and is more that wing so probably doesn't push back which in my mind leaves Clarke and Reid. Clarke still needs to establish himself as best 22 but Reid could be an option potentially if we want him to be.

No clarity who that kickout guy. Doubtful that we address this through the draft so we probably stick with Shaw for the time being.

 

[blaze036]

Port Adelaide want Colquhoun. Has really nice endurance and finds his targets by foot but penetration not huge and not that super high hurt factor type by foot as Josh Toy is so I'd be looking for something a touch better if possible. Colquhoun defensively probably isn't good enough for my liking and can get beaten 1v1 and in the air. Pace nothing special either so I'd pass.

The really elite kicks in our squad are Reid, Clarke, Young and Fasolo. Fasolo I suggest remains more of a high half forward - playmaker type who can find those inside 50 targets. Young also more damaging forward of centre and is more that wing so probably doesn't push back which in my mind leaves Clarke and Reid. Clarke still needs to establish himself as best 22 but Reid could be an option potentially if we want him to be.

No clarity who that kickout guy. Doubtful that we address this through the draft so we probably stick with Shaw for the time being.

Wouldn't mind Young taking some kickouts.

 

[Hardas]

Wouldn't mind Young taking some kickouts.

I've heard Hawks fans suggest he is not especially reliable over the short to medium distance, as one might say of Shaw. Of those likely to be 'Best 22' now, we might be able to mix those two with Reid for kick in duties - kind of whoever is closest takes it, but Shawy makes me nervous in that role.