No Oppo Supporters Hawks and Pokies

[tige19]

Changing two words in your statement makes it completely morally abhorrent to most people. Not a strong argument.

In your view, it’s a matter of opinion, nothing more to it.

I lost a close family member to that hideous drug, I find the fact you feel it’s warranted to make a comparison between inherently odd.

 

[Yardie]

Irrelevant. We are talking about heroin. And clearly there are issues with it.

Actually we are talking about pokies.

 

[Brishawk]

In your view, it’s a matter of opinion, nothing more to it.

I lost a close family member to that hideous drug, I find the fact you feel it’s warranted to make a comparison between inherently odd.

In no way do I mean to trivialise heroin addiction or the damage it causes. But please look in the mirror. Problem gamblers are 15 times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population. There are established links between problem gambling and domestic violence (as there are with drugs and alcohol). Dismissing pokies use as something as trivial as personal choice is dismissive of the enormous damage and it causes.

 

[OnTheRocks]

In no way do I mean to trivialise heroin addiction or the damage it causes. But please look in the mirror. Problem gamblers are 15 times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population. There are established links between problem gambling and domestic violence (as there are with drugs and alcohol). Dismissing pokies use as something as trivial as personal choice is dismissive of the enormous damage and it causes.

What percentage of 'problem pokie gamblers' are linked to domestic violence?

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Links between problem gamblers and fraud/theft too.
A number of well established firms have gone under due to theft and fraud by addicted pokie players.

 

[tige19]

In no way do I mean to trivialise heroin addiction or the damage it causes. But please look in the mirror. Problem gamblers are 15 times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population. There are established links between problem gambling and domestic violence (as there are with drugs and alcohol). Dismissing pokies use as something as trivial as personal choice is dismissive of the enormous damage and it causes.

Theres also a link between kids being bullied at high school and depression and anxiety, does that mean we shut down schools or try and educate children about social behaviour? What about the fact that professional male athletes are far more likely to sexually assault, abuse or be violent against women? There have been 100s of peer reviewed and scholarly articles that provide eye opening data about males who play team sports, particularly football (rugby, AFL etc) that show the rates of these acts to be considerably higher than the every day joe blogs.

Should we look to ban professional team sports?

This argument you put forward has absolutely no end, it can be debated until the cows come home and supported with all sorts of data.

I have always believed, as grown adults you make decisions in your life, if you decide to play pokies and spend your families utilities money then that’s on you, you live with that. Same as drugs, same as grog.

 

[Gralin]

Theres also a link between kids being bullied at high school and depression and anxiety, does that mean we shut down schools or try and educate children about social behaviour? What about the fact that professional male athletes are far more likely to sexually assault, abuse or be violent against women? There have been 100s of peer reviewed and scholarly articles that provide eye opening data about males who play team sports, particularly football (rugby, AFL etc) that show the rates of these acts to be considerably higher than the every day joe blogs.

Should we look to ban professional team sports?

This argument you put forward has absolutely no end, it can be debated until the cows come home and supported with all sorts of data.

I have always believed, as grown adults you make decisions in your life, if you decide to play pokies and spend your families utilities money then that’s on you, you live with that. Same as drugs, same as grog.

I really like how you compared bullying in schools to problem gambling and domestic violence.

Pray tell what massive benefit to society does a pokies venue provide?

Schools have value.

You'd have made a better argument with a nightclub.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

You'd have better arguments with a lamp post.

 

[tige19]

I really like how you compared bullying in schools to problem gambling and domestic violence.

Pray tell what massive benefit to society does a pokies venue provide?

Schools have value.

You'd have made a better argument with a nightclub.

Any chance of understanding context, or are you that robotic that I need to start providing notes explaining the context to everything especially for you? I was REPLYING to Brishawks comparison and changing of my post around Heroin users, did you not catch that? I think any comparison is silly, each subject topic has a range of factors that require it's own think tank by people smarter than you and I.

 

[Furn2]

Some interesting stats being thrown around in here.

Just out of curiosity, was there a spike in suicides, theft and domestic violence when pokies were introduced and are the rates of these things lower in states with less pokies ?

I remember reading pokie addicts are far more likely to be smokers so is it possible that people predisposed to the above are also predisposed to pokies.

the chicken and the egg and all that.

 

[Gralin]

Any chance of understanding context, or are you that robotic that I need to start providing notes explaining the context to everything especially for you? I was REPLYING to Brishawks comparison and changing of my post around Heroin users, did you not catch that? I think any comparison is silly, each subject topic has a range of factors that require it's own think tank by people smarter than you and I.

What has context got to do with your bullshit argument about bullying in schools as a comparison to the damage pokies do?
That's what you were doing coming up with stupid comparisons that don't make sense as argument that closing the pokies because of the damage they do doesn't make sense.
You were going full strawman because you didn't have a valid response.

Why do you always act like anyone that questions your posting is thick?

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

...is it possible that people predisposed to the above are also predisposed to pokies.

the chicken and the egg and all that.

More than possible, fact.
Some people are predisposed to addictive behaviours.

 

[Brishawk]

What percentage of 'problem pokie gamblers' are linked to domestic violence?

There are a few different numbers but 37% of problem gamblers are perpetrators of domestic violence against a partner. 11% of domestic violence offenders against their partners also have a gambling problem. 56% of problem gamblers in one study admitted to using violence against their children.
More broadly, for every problem gamblers there are 7.3 people affected by problem gamblers e.g. family members, friends and employers etc. About 300-500k problem gamblers in Australia with 75-80% of them pokies players. We are talking about 3.6 million affected people with about 2.9 million of them in relation to pokies. It is a massive cost.

 

[Brishawk]

Theres also a link between kids being bullied at high school and depression and anxiety, does that mean we shut down schools or try and educate children about social behaviour? What about the fact that professional male athletes are far more likely to sexually assault, abuse or be violent against women? There have been 100s of peer reviewed and scholarly articles that provide eye opening data about males who play team sports, particularly football (rugby, AFL etc) that show the rates of these acts to be considerably higher than the every day joe blogs.

Should we look to ban professional team sports?

This argument you put forward has absolutely no end, it can be debated until the cows come home and supported with all sorts of data.

I have always believed, as grown adults you make decisions in your life, if you decide to play pokies and spend your families utilities money then that’s on you, you live with that. Same as drugs, same as grog.

Cost v benefit. See my previous post ^ around the extent of the costs. There are only about 1.5 million pokies players in Australia and about a 1/3 of them are problem gamblers and they each affect 7.3 people on average. So to entertain 1 million people who presently don’t have a gambling problem we impose a cost on 3.4 million people (500k problem gamblers plus the 2.9 million the affect). There is no way the benefits outweigh the costs here.
Compare that to sport. Millions of players across the country and a tiny fraction go out and sexually abuse women. The health and social benefits are considerable so mitigation and remediation are going to be worthwhile. There just is no worthwhile benefit to having pokies.

 

[tige19]

What has context got to do with your bullshit argument about bullying in schools as a comparison to the damage pokies do?
That's what you were doing coming up with stupid comparisons that don't make sense as argument that closing the pokies because of the damage they do doesn't make sense.
You were going full strawman because you didn't have a valid response.

Why do you always act like anyone that questions your posting is thick?

You are my fanboy.

 

[tige19]

Cost v benefit. See my previous post ^ around the extent of the costs. There are only about 1.5 million pokies players in Australia and about a 1/3 of them are problem gamblers and they each affect 7.3 people on average. So to entertain 1 million people who presently don’t have a gambling problem we impose a cost on 3.4 million people (500k problem gamblers plus the 2.9 million the affect). There is no way the benefits outweigh the costs here.
Compare that to sport. Millions of players across the country and a tiny fraction go out and sexually abuse women. The health and social benefits are considerable so mitigation and remediation are going to be worthwhile. There just is no worthwhile benefit to having pokies.

I don’t know the stats like you do, I’m not as well versed on the topic but I’ll take it that you’ve done enough research to understand. I think the reality I am trying to put forward is we live a democratic, capitalist society, the pitfalls of choice is bad decisions, those are the rights that have been afforded to us. For mine, we can’t accept all that is great in our western culture and not some of which is bad.

As per my previous post, as grown adults we all make decisions, playing pokies is one of them and so long as it’s legal (which it will always remain) I support the club wholeheartedly in generating income from them.

 

[flinchfree]

Cost v benefit. See my previous post ^ around the extent of the costs. There are only about 1.5 million pokies players in Australia and about a 1/3 of them are problem gamblers and they each affect 7.3 people on average. So to entertain 1 million people who presently don’t have a gambling problem we impose a cost on 3.4 million people (500k problem gamblers plus the 2.9 million the affect). There is no way the benefits outweigh the costs here.
Compare that to sport. Millions of players across the country and a tiny fraction go out and sexually abuse women. The health and social benefits are considerable so mitigation and remediation are going to be worthwhile. There just is no worthwhile benefit to having pokies.

Those are super interesting numbers. The 3.4 mil directly affected by problem gambling doesn't gel with my life experience, but I'm willing to say I've somehow sidestepped it. I must know at least 600 people plus pretty well through the last 50 years and never heard a single story of any one of them being affected by the industry.
True, personal problems don't always get broadcast far and wide, but in that time I've lost 3 friends to suicide and had another 3 in my greater circle also kill themselves.
Also know 2 people who overdosed and died.
Know at least a half dozen who have dealt with serious depression such that their lives were interrupted significantly and they haven't been able to function fully.
Plenty of friends who never really stretched out and filled 'potential' because they fell in love with drugs early.
One mate who loves the Gin bottle like it's his child.
Good friends and family who have battled weight problems and eating disorders all their lives.
So many personal stories, and yet not a single pokies gambling addict one that I've even heard whispers of.

Strange, but I'll accept your take on the savage effect on society and the population as a whole from pokies gambling.
I guess my own history is why I worry more about sugar, societal images of perfection, poor mental health support, illegal drugs (as oppo to making MJ legal and properly adjudicated in society like booze), zombifying our children with video games, accepting and gloryfying physical violence in MMA and boxing while expecting our youngest in society to understand that king hitting on a pavement is anathema, being unwilling to make a right turn in an existential fight against global warming, accepting that our public policy is bought by big business, etc.

But yeh, Pokies. Go figure.

 

[OnTheRocks]

There are a few different numbers but 37% of problem gamblers are perpetrators of domestic violence against a partner. 11% of domestic violence offenders against their partners also have a gambling problem. 56% of problem gamblers in one study admitted to using violence against their children.
More broadly, for every problem gamblers there are 7.3 people affected by problem gamblers e.g. family members, friends and employers etc. About 300-500k problem gamblers in Australia with 75-80% of them pokies players. We are talking about 3.6 million affected people with about 2.9 million of them in relation to pokies. It is a massive cost.

so somewhere between 1.2% and at a stretch up to 2% of the population are problem gamblers and so between 0.444% and once again stretching it up to 0.74% of the population 'are perpetrators of domestic violence against a partner.' I wonder if these people had/have other 'íssues' other than pokies that could attribute to their shit behaviour? Numbers can be crunched by onyone to make a case against, for or any other case they so choose about pokies but 1 fact that the numbers do reveal is that a small minority of the population are problem gamblers who on average lose about 12k per year

 

[Brishawk]

Those are super interesting numbers. The 3.4 mil directly affected by problem gambling doesn't gel with my life experience, but I'm willing to say I've somehow sidestepped it. I must know at least 600 people plus pretty well through the last 50 years and never heard a single story of any one of them being affected by the industry.
True, personal problems don't always get broadcast far and wide, but in that time I've lost 3 friends to suicide and had another 3 in my greater circle also kill themselves.
Also know 2 people who overdosed and died.
Know at least a half dozen who have dealt with serious depression such that their lives were interrupted significantly and they haven't been able to function fully.
Plenty of friends who never really stretched out and filled 'potential' because they fell in love with drugs early.
One mate who loves the Gin bottle like it's his child.
Good friends and family who have battled weight problems and eating disorders all their lives.
So many personal stories, and yet not a single pokies gambling addict one that I've even heard whispers of.

Strange, but I'll accept your take on the savage effect on society and the population as a whole from pokies gambling.
I guess my own history is why I worry more about sugar, societal images of perfection, poor mental health support, illegal drugs (as oppo to making MJ legal and properly adjudicated in society like booze), zombifying our children with video games, accepting and gloryfying physical violence in MMA and boxing while expecting our youngest in society to understand that king hitting on a pavement is anathema, being unwilling to make a right turn in an existential fight against global warming, accepting that our public policy is bought by big business, etc.

But yeh, Pokies. Go figure.

Society has lots of problems for sure. Problem gamblers are pretty good at hiding it. They can have successful careers. A person at a company I used to work at defrauded the company of millions over time. She hid her tracks successfully for a long time. She was head of finance and got asked to find the problem and not surprisingly found nothing. It was only external investigators that uncovered her fraud. One of the drivers in her behaviour was to satisfy a gambling addiction. I know a small businessman who was nearly ruined by a pokies addition. He sucked money out of the business to fund his habit. Took strong woman (his wife) to get him out of it. I know that man because he was friends with my father. They shared a friendship and through it they developed problem gambling behaviour. I had absolutely no idea this was happening but I can tell you that once i did it was very confronting to start looking into the massive costs. And then to confront your own father on it. Yeah it was a ****ing nightmare. They had to break off their friendship (initiated by the other man) to break the behaviour. In the end we moved my father interstate. Fortunately he is past his issues now. This is a sample of the kind of shit I have seen. Unlikely you would see it unless you are directly affected or the person gets caught out.

 

[Brishawk]

I don’t know the stats like you do, I’m not as well versed on the topic but I’ll take it that you’ve done enough research to understand. I think the reality I am trying to put forward is we live a democratic, capitalist society, the pitfalls of choice is bad decisions, those are the rights that have been afforded to us. For mine, we can’t accept all that is great in our western culture and not some of which is bad.

As per my previous post, as grown adults we all make decisions, playing pokies is one of them and so long as it’s legal (which it will always remain) I support the club wholeheartedly in generating income from them.

Would you be happy if your neighbour started tearing up asbestos sheets in their back yard giving you a massive increased risk of cancer? It is your neighbours personal choice to put their own life at risk but is it fair that your neighbour can impose a cost on you?

It is not reasonable for a persons personal choices to impose a cost on 7.3 people, regardless of the personal benefit . It is not reasonable that a product that provides a (questionable) benefit to 5% of the population should be given a higher weight than the costs imposed on 10% of the population. This is exactly the kind of market failure that requires regulation or prohibition.

 

[flinchfree]

Society has lots of problems for sure. Problem gamblers are pretty good at hiding it. They can have successful careers. A person at a company I used to work at defrauded the company of millions over time. She hid her tracks successfully for a long time. She was head of finance and got asked to find the problem and not surprisingly found nothing. It was only external investigators that uncovered her fraud. One of the drivers in her behaviour was to satisfy a gambling addiction. I know a small businessman who was nearly ruined by a pokies addition. He sucked money out of the business to fund his habit. Took strong woman (his wife) to get him out of it. I know that man because he was friends with my father. They shared a friendship and through it they developed problem gambling behaviour. I had absolutely no idea this was happening but I can tell you that once i did it was very confronting to start looking into the massive costs. And then to confront your own father on it. Yeah it was a ******* nightmare. They had to break off their friendship (initiated by the other man) to break the behaviour. In the end we moved my father interstate. Fortunately he is past his issues now. This is a sample of the kind of shit I have seen. Unlikely you would see it unless you are directly affected or the person gets caught out.

Respect man. When you see something in the world you believe isn't right and are willing to do something about it, that's what we need more of.
When you have no issue (as you've shown) with others who would argue the opposing view - that's how we grow what we all know and advance a better position in society to take.

 

[Brishawk]

so somewhere between 1.2% and at a stretch up to 2% of the population are problem gamblers and so between 0.444% and once again stretching it up to 0.74% of the population 'are perpetrators of domestic violence against a partner.' I wonder if these people had/have other 'íssues' other than pokies that could attribute to their shit behaviour? Numbers can be crunched by onyone to make a case against, for or any other case they so choose about pokies but 1 fact that the numbers do reveal is that a small minority of the population are problem gamblers who on average lose about 12k per year

About 2/3 of the money lost on pokies is due to problem gamblers. One thing to note about statistics on problem gambling is that industry defines problem gamblers as the people who have lost just about everything already. They have a lessor classification for people who are not at that level. From memory it is at risk or something. It is nonsensical because the problem is the behaviour and that is already in place. It is only the lag between problem and end game that separates the industry statistics from more independent studies.

 

[flinchfree]

Would you be happy if your neighbour started tearing up asbestos sheets in their back yard giving you a massive increased risk of cancer? It is your neighbours personal choice to put their own life at risk but is it fair that your neighbour can impose a cost on you?

It is not reasonable for a persons personal choices to impose a cost on 7.3 people, regardless of the personal benefit . It is not reasonable that a product that provides a (questionable) benefit to 5% of the population should be given a higher weight than the costs imposed on 10% of the population. This is exactly the kind of market failure that requires regulation or prohibition.

I think this is where the problem lies with the pokies argument. While your statistical representation sounds overwhelming, I think it would fail to be so for most real world / real life experiences.
When such an extraordinary low number - as a percentage of users of an activity - are so very negatively impacted in their own choice, yes it's painful to see those you know and love hurt - but that's through ALL of life. We all watch some around us struggle with things we don't. And it can have material effect on your life, but you move on as best you can and help where you can and don't legislate for the vast majority because of that.
My mum fought with food, but never expected me to not bring a pack of jaffa cakes home. That wouldn't be reasonable, right? Even though it made her own life more complicated. I mean, i tried and all and was pretty disciplined myself. But there's limits right?
I used to nick some of the 10c/20c pieces out of my mum's purse to buy mixed bags of lollies after school....was that the candy's fault?
When I gave up smoking I didn't tell my ciggy buddies they had to do the same, or to not participate in their own homes. I could chose whether to go over to their place or not. They couldn't do it in restaurants or public buildings or at work so had to manage their use in a way that was workable for them. You could do the same with pokies etc without outlawing them or presenting them as the devils spawn, when it's barely a giggle for most.
My mate who loves Gin wouldn't expect everyone around him to go dry, because it would make his own weakness to drink uncontrollably more manageable, correct?
I get to watch the odd sexy movie if I want, regardless of whether some deviant who can't control his fantasies uses the same or similar material to motivate him to do wrong? No?

The damage to those around us is inevitable when some have difficulty in controlling their desires or imposing good decision making practices, from nearly any casually enjoyable activity that is anything but casual for those very people.

Gambling isn't particularly positive. Neither is bingeing a liter of ice cream late at night. Or surfing the internet at night instead of going to bed with your partner. Or guessing on the stock market. Or over investing in your kids sporting activities. Or organizing your free time with family around being available to get to your reserved seat at the footy every weekend.
Our society doesn't need more prohibition, it needs better education and more positive alternatives so that people can distract themselves in the healthiest possible fashion.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

I think this is where the problem lies with the pokies argument. While your statistical representation sounds overwhelming, I think it would fail to be so for most real world / real life experiences.

You're wrong,the rest if your post is pointless.
Your real life observations are not reflective of the societal problem.

 

[flinchfree]

You're wrong,the rest if your post is pointless.
Your real life observations are not reflective of the societal problem.

I wish you'd just keep me on ignore.
You don't think my observations are relevant, I don't think your style of discussion worthy of my time.