List Mgmt. Hawks Major List Problems

Davo-27

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Thread starter #1
In recent years we have been unwilling to make changes to our list because of the success we have had from 2011-2015 and this has led us to have an ageing list, list cloggers and a lack of youth to invest in for the next generation of Hawthorn Players

Problem 1) Ageing List, with the list we have now in 2019 we will have 8 players over 30 years of age and 17 players over the age of 28 with 16 under 23 and 12 in the important age group of 23-27!!!!!

Problem 2) List Cloggers
, some players at best are ok and at worst are disasters waiting to happen, if you get them on a good day they will play ok, but never well, they just get by and if they dont have a good day can cost you goals, turn overs, make others drop their heads ect, or worse prevent an actually good player from getting a game, our list cloggers are (Schoenmakers, Whitecross, Langford, O'Brien, Brand, O'Rourke, Heatherley, Miles, Lovell, Willsmore)

Problem 3) Veterans, our Veterans have been champions for the club and we all love them, but there are so many of them its becoming an issue, because of our lack of foresight we have very few players in our starting 22 that arent in the veteran category, meaning we dont have a team in 2-3 years time, Injuries and form are hurting us seeing as we're so reliant on our Veterans - Injury (Burgoyne, Birchall) personal issues (Rioli) poor form (Roughead, Frawley, Henderson, Duryea) not good enough (Schoenmakers, Whitecross, Mirra?)

Problem 4) Youngsters not getting opportunities, the match committee is so short sighted, focusing on trying to get a win now (which is failing btw), that they are robbing the future to try and succeed today, the problem is, they arent succeeding today which is compounding the problem, with the lack of young talent capable at the level and the ones that are like Worpel not getting opportunities, this area of our list will end up putting our club in the dirt in a few years, this incompetence cant be allowed to continue unchecked.

Problem 5) Weak List, poor management, over a dozen players on our list have no purpose other than to be stop gap players, meaning they arent even role players, they are there because we have no-one else, a role player is like Stratton or Shiels or Puopolo who play their roles to a high standard, a shit player is like Whitecross who does nothing and is a stop gap useless player.

players who could be gone by next year are:

Burgoyne - old, injured, possibly slowing down, 36
Roughead - out of contract, theres talk he wants to retire at 32?
Birchall - injury plagued for 2 1/2 years, 31
Frawley - migraines and injured a lot, 30
Rioli - might walk away from the game for family and personal reasons???
Henderson - out of contract, can only play half a season, 30
Schoenmakers - has never been a good player and seems out of favour
Whitecross - not AFL Standard
Langford - not AFL Standard
O'Brien - not AFL Standard
Brand - not AFL Standard
O'Rourke - not AFL Standard
Heatherley - not AFL Standard
Miles - not AFL Standard
Lovell - not AFL Standard
Willsmore - not AFL Standard

16 players with question marks over their future, thats why we have a weak list, you could argue Rioli will be back, but i dont know that, Frawley will probably go on, the other 14? i have no idea what to do with....

the question that needs to be asked is who has allowed this list to be managed so poorly over the last 3-5 years? this is an absolute disgrace.....
 

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BJK#5

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#2
In recent years we have been unwilling to make changes to our list because of the success we have had from 2011-2015 and this has led us to have an ageing list, list cloggers and a lack of youth to invest in for the next generation of Hawthorn Players

Problem 1) Ageing List, with the list we have now in 2019 we will have 8 players over 30 years of age and 17 players over the age of 28 with 16 under 23 and 12 in the important age group of 23-27!!!!!

Problem 2) List Cloggers
, some players at best are ok and at worst are disasters waiting to happen, if you get them on a good day they will play ok, but never well, they just get by and if they dont have a good day can cost you goals, turn overs, make others drop their heads ect, or worse prevent an actually good player from getting a game, our list cloggers are (Schoenmakers, Whitecross, Langford, O'Brien, Brand, O'Rourke, Heatherley, Miles, Lovell, Willsmore)

Problem 3) Veterans, our Veterans have been champions for the club and we all love them, but there are so many of them its becoming an issue, because of our lack of foresight we have very few players in our starting 22 that arent in the veteran category, meaning we dont have a team in 2-3 years time, Injuries and form are hurting us seeing as we're so reliant on our Veterans - Injury (Burgoyne, Birchall) personal issues (Rioli) poor form (Roughead, Frawley, Henderson, Duryea) not good enough (Schoenmakers, Whitecross, Mirra?)

Problem 4) Youngsters not getting opportunities, the match committee is so short sighted, focusing on trying to get a win now (which is failing btw), that they are robbing the future to try and succeed today, the problem is, they arent succeeding today which is compounding the problem, with the lack of young talent capable at the level and the ones that are like Worpel not getting opportunities, this area of our list will end up putting our club in the dirt in a few years, this incompetence cant be allowed to continue unchecked.

Problem 5) Weak List, poor management, over a dozen players on our list have no purpose other than to be stop gap players, meaning they arent even role players, they are there because we have no-one else, a role player is like Stratton or Shiels or Puopolo who play their roles to a high standard, a shit player is like Whitecross who does nothing and is a stop gap useless player.

players who could be gone by next year are:

Burgoyne - old, injured, possibly slowing down, 36
Roughead - out of contract, theres talk he wants to retire at 32?
Birchall - injury plagued for 2 1/2 years, 31
Frawley - migraines and injured a lot, 30
Rioli - might walk away from the game for family and personal reasons???
Henderson - out of contract, can only play half a season, 30
Schoenmakers - has never been a good player and seems out of favour
Whitecross - not AFL Standard
Langford - not AFL Standard
O'Brien - not AFL Standard
Brand - not AFL Standard
O'Rourke - not AFL Standard
Heatherley - not AFL Standard
Miles - not AFL Standard
Lovell - not AFL Standard
Willsmore - not AFL Standard

16 players with question marks over their future, thats why we have a weak list, you could argue Rioli will be back, but i dont know that, Frawley will probably go on, the other 14? i have no idea what to do with....

the question that needs to be asked is who has allowed this list to be managed so poorly over the last 3-5 years? this is an absolute disgrace.....
Managed poorly? We have slowly pushed out the older players 2-3 at a time to avoid a massive drop off. What did you want them to do? We have had no access to young talent at the draft, but have traded well. We have 100% got weaknesses in our list but we have not been managed poorly.

That is not fair, they have kept us competitive with teams who have had a lot more young talent.
 
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Numtums

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#4
Burgoyne - old, injured, possibly slowing down, 36
Roughead - out of contract, theres talk he wants to retire at 32?
Birchall - injury plagued for 2 1/2 years, 31
Frawley - migraines and injured a lot, 30
Rioli - might walk away from the game for family and personal reasons???
Henderson - out of contract, can only play half a season, 30
Schoenmakers - has never been a good player and seems out of favour
Whitecross - not AFL Standard
Langford - not AFL Standard
O'Brien - not AFL Standard
Brand - not AFL Standard
O'Rourke - not AFL Standard
Heatherley - not AFL Standard
Miles - not AFL Standard
Lovell - not AFL Standard
Willsmore - not AFL Standard

Burgoyne - was doing well until that hammy. Probably done
Roughead - was done last year. Should retire
Birchall - was done last year. Should retire
Frawley - no trade currency. Keep
Rioli - Done
Henderson - worth retaining
Schoenmakers - would retain as depth, but seems Clarko is done with him
Whitecross - delist
Langford - delist or depth, not phased either way
O'Brien - hope the SA clubs rate him. trade/delist
Brand - retain as depth
O'Rourke - not sure what he's done to piss off the match committee. done
Heatherley - done
Miles - retain
Lovell - retain
Willsmore - not sure how he survived last years cull

When laid out like this, things look very grim!
 

Davo-27

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Thread starter #5
I think we might be caught between being a middle of the road team and genuine contender. Very hard to win a flag without development through draft picks
if the club can be honest and identify the problem then they will have time to come up with a solution, but if they keep slapping band aids on the problem then we're in for a few lean years
 

cryptor

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#6
Could be a brutal post season for the list. With an apparently very strong and deep national draft we have an opportunity to do a clean out and pick up some talent even if it's with half a dozen picks late in the draft.

After the moving on of Mitchell and Lewis after finishing 1 and 2 in our B&F I reckon there's no limit to how brutal the list management decisions this year could be. I think there will be very few players who would be considered untouchable. Even in some of the younger players might be used to gain some higher picks.

Untouchable: Mitchell, Burton, Sicily, McEvoy, O'Meara, Hardwick, Gunston, Impey

No, I haven't forgot anyone from that list. Yes, this does mean we could be open to offers on Roughead, Burgoyne, Smith, Breust, Stratton, Shiels, Puopolo, and Rioli. I'm not saying these players will be pushed out, delisted, or given away for 4th/5th round picks like Mitchell and Lewis. They are simply available for the right price. I don't expect Roughead, Burgoyne or Rioli would bother playing on else where, but should they happen to be open to it for whatever reason then we should be open to it also. I also wouldn't expect we'd get enough back in trade for most of those players to make the trade worth doing, but again should another club be prepared to pay enough for them in trade we should be open to that.

If the right list decisions are made we could free up a huge amount of cap space for a number of free agents, while also filling up the lower cost end of our list with draftees. Also to be clear, again I'm not saying we cut all the older guys from our list. We can't just cut all the leadership and experience in one big cull.
 

rdhopkins2

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#9
Sounds like a big change may be on the cards to create more space around stoppages and restarts of the game. Interesting for this years trade period as will will need to recruit small, inside midfielders and agile tall forwards to take advantage of newly created space.
 

FisherHawk

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#10
I haven't checked everyone else's injury list but with only Rioli (not injured), Birch and Burgoyne out, our ladder position probably flatters us, considering the outs of some teams. There's no way we currently have the depth to cover say another 3 from our best 22 getting injured. That's the wash up if 3 flags I guess.
 

lickmerocks

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#11
Finally some common sense being posted.

For me-
Delist- schoenmakers Langford O’Rourke Willsmore Heatherley and Doc. All are cooked and clogging us up.

Retire- Roughead Burgoyne (clear money space now)

Rioli and Birchall are the intriguing ones.
Million dollars between them per year and neither has had a kick in 2 years. Don’t know what to do with these two.

Lucky ones to survive for another year are
Obrien- need some back up height.
Brand- if Frawley goes down we have no other option.
Miles- don’t know how he survives to be honest but give him 1 more year.
Mirra- deserves 1 more year on the senior list.
 

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Jane Doe

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#13
Finally some common sense being posted.

For me-
Delist- schoenmakers Langford O’Rourke Willsmore Heatherley and Doc. All are cooked and clogging us up.

Retire- Roughead Burgoyne (clear money space now)

Rioli and Birchall are the intriguing ones.
Million dollars between them per year and neither has had a kick in 2 years. Don’t know what to do with these two.

Lucky ones to survive for another year are
Obrien- need some back up height.
Brand- if Frawley goes down we have no other option.
Miles- don’t know how he survives to be honest but give him 1 more year.
Mirra- deserves 1 more year on the senior list.
Agree with most of this however I am pretty sure Langford has a couple of years left on a contract so we would need to pay him out
 

Brant

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#14
*Mods: please move to Hypo thread if warranted*

Our list is full of holes, but our Best 22 could contend with a serious top-up.

On-field 2018 performances, we're 1-3 goals behind the genuine contenders. IMO, we're at least a 4+ goal better side if we add:

1x A Grade KPF
1x 3rd Tall LEADING Forward
1x A Grade Inside/Outside Mid
1x A Grade Running Player (HB/Mid/HF/Wing)
2x Small Forward / Mid rotation

Now... How do we get them???

Some are already on our list, just can't get on the park.

From an Asset Perspective, we already have:
A Grade Running Player: Birch............or if retired.........$500k (think he has 2yrs after 2018)
Vickery..................................................retired.................$500k
Small Fwd / Mid: Rioli.........................or if retired..........$600k
3rd Tall Forward: Roughy....................or if retired..........$700k
Small Fwd / Mid: Burgouyne..............or if retired..........$300k

Likelihood of returning/contributing again in these roles:
Vickery = 0% = $500k
Rioli = I'd rather him than the cap space, but worst case for us is he retires = $600k
Birch = tough one... Trade to Saints for their 2019 4th Rounder, just to clear cap space = $500k
Roughy = retire = $700k
Burgoyne = Keep (should retain one of Burgoyne or Birchall)

Should clear $2m - $2.3m.

Needed:

1x KPF = Lynch = $1.1m (front load)
1x A Grade Running Player = Sloane = $650k
1x A Grade Inside/Outside Mid = Cogs = 2019 1st = $700k
1x 3rd Tall Forward = Timmy O'Almost = we own him anyway, gonna have to do. Timmy - don't fu*k this up... Could always get creative & maybe play Gunners in this role...
2x Small Forward / Mids = Worpel is one. If we bring in Sloane/Cogs then Impey becomes the other.

Our depth then becomes guys like Morrison, Cousins, Langers, Hendo & Doc instead of them being the whipping boys of our Best 22.

2018 1st used at Draft. Trade 2nd or 3rd for a young KPP or hard-running fringe midfielder, or a midfielder wanting back to Melbs.

De-list: Schoey (UFA), Miles, Roughy (ret.), Vickery (ret.), Rioli (ret.), Whitecross (UFA)
Trade: Birch
 

Judd2Sewell

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#15
Our midfield depth is really poor, it has to be in the bottom few clubs in the league.

Our KPD and KPF stocks are severely lacking too.

We could do with a quality winger as well.

Essentially we need another 4/5 top players to complete the side.

Hopefully we can add a few during the FA period.
 

Nugett

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#16
Where we are list wise is a resemblence of 09/10. In 09/10 you had Dew, Croad and Crawford all Retire. Campbell Brown was uncontracted and choose the Gold Coast. We traded McGlynn, Kennedy, and Mark Williams. We delisted Dowler, Muston, Skipper, Peterson, Tuck, Taylor and Hooper, along with other rookies. While both Skipper and Peterson were rookies, they did play a vast majority of games in a season, so why I named them.

During that time, we traded in Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale and Cheney. We drafted Stratton, Duryea, Suckling (rookie), Bruest (rookie), Smith, Poppy, Bruce(preseason draft) and Langford (NSW scholarship) haven’t included guys we drafted like Grimley and Litherland due to not having much of an impact.

While we kept on the nucleus of the team, in Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge, Franklin, Sewell, Birchell, Guerra, Rioli and Sheils.

The guys on our list which could retire either this year or next year imo are: Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchell, Rioli and Frawley.

Free agents coming up are Duryea(2018), Whitecross(2018), Shoenmakers(2018), Puopolo(2018), Stratton(2019), Gunston(2019), Langford(2019)and Sheils(2019). There are only 2 that I would personally like to resign which is Stratton and Gunston. The others I’m not that concerned if they want to stay or go.

Of the players that are coming out of contract in the next 2 years you have: Heatherley, O’Rouke, Howe, Brand, Lovell, Nash, Brand, Pittonet, Jiath, Willsmore, Mirra, Henderson, Miles (all 2018), Hardwick, McEvoy, Glass, O’Meara, Mitchell, Cousins, Worpel, Ceglar, Hanaran and O’Brien(all 2019) Of the players mentioned, I would like to see, Hardwick, McEvoy, Glass, O’Meara, Mitchell and Ceglar as our major priorities. As our secondary priority in resigning players, I would like to see Jiath, Howe, Lovell, Nash, Cousins and Worpel offered contract extensions. Imo Heatherley, O’Rouke, O’Brien, Brand, Pittonet and Henderson, have potential for trades varying from late third to a fifth round draft pick. With O’Rouke, O’Brien and Henderson if we can’t secure trades, I’d rather keep as depth. Brand and Pittonet, if we can’t secure a trade, am non plussed if delisted. Miles, Hanaran, willsmore and Mirra I have no issue if the club wants to move them on.

If Stratton, Gunston, Hardwick, McEvoy, Glass, O’Meara, Mitchell, and Ceglar all recommit, with Bruest, Sicily and Burton that’s a great nucleus for our next premiership tilt.

If we can land a couple of free agents in the next year or 2, we start to look even better. Free agents i’d Like us to look at include: Rory Sloane, Tom Lynch, Jeremy McGovern, Stephen May, Dylan Sheils, Steven Conigilo and Brandon Ellis. If we could land at least 2 of these names, we start looking even better.

So overall, I don’t think that our list is as dire as is being suggested. As was the case in 09/10, our list was in a transitional period between mediocrity and success. Clarko and co have proven in the past that they can be quite ruthless when it comes to list management. I think we as a club are looking at transitioning our list and will implement what ever changes that are necessary. It’s been proven in the past that we can look for the missing pieces in trades, and then have the foresight to make it happen. It has been proven before, that we can find the diamonds in the rough at the draft. These are my opinions, feel free to agree to disagree if you want.
 

lickmerocks

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#17
Agree with most of this however I am pretty sure Langford has a couple of years left on a contract so we would need to pay him out

I reckon Langers signed a 3 year deal at the end of 2015 so that would mean he is out of contract thank goodness
 

Rioli magic

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#19

SA HAWK

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#20
I reckon Langers signed a 3 year deal at the end of 2015 so that would mean he is out of contract thank goodness
Signed a 4 year deal so will be on the list next year unless he is traded or cut & paid out.

We foolishly jumped the gun resigning Rough for another year it looks like Gibbo all over again.
 

Brant

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#21
Signed a 4 year deal so will be on the list next year unless he is traded or cut & paid out.

We foolishly jumped the gun resigning Rough for another year it looks like Gibbo all over again.
Re-signed Birch for 4 didn't we, in 2017?

Gotta clear that risk & fast.
 

cryptor

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#23
Of that list, he would likely get us the most in a trade. He would be very valuable to a team in contention over the next 2-3 years while he's on this side of 30. Consider what GWS might be willing to trade for a player of his experience with their glutton of young midfield stars.

Nope, we don't trade out the leaders of the club before they're done.
We have done so before when necessary, and will do so again.
 
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