Hawthorn’s decline

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RUNVS

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Feb 28, 2007
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The Breust/Gunston debate is an interesting one. Do Hawthorn trade them out, losing much needed experience for a rebuilding side in order to get pretty good draft picks, or do they keep them, and as a result bring in young players a bit more slowly.
 

WWSD

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Sep 7, 2009
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The Breust/Gunston debate is an interesting one. Do Hawthorn trade them out, losing much needed experience for a rebuilding side in order to get pretty good draft picks, or do they keep them, and as a result bring in young players a bit more slowly.
Every year for about the last six years, Gunston and Breust have their names thrown up as “trade bait” by the media. Given the fact that they’ve already won a Premiership and are on decent contracts, there’s no incentive for them to leave. Besides, I don’t see any team satisfying Hawthorn in a trade.
 

Damon_3388

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Jun 23, 2008
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The Breust/Gunston debate is an interesting one. Do Hawthorn trade them out, losing much needed experience for a rebuilding side in order to get pretty good draft picks, or do they keep them, and as a result bring in young players a bit more slowly.
Are they genuinely underperforming, or are they more supply-reliant and teammate-reliant than we realised?

I feel like with a lot of forwards at the moment, they're restrained by their delivery, and the way the game is played today.

The Hawks definitely need something more dynamic in the midfield, to give their forwards the best chance possible. Mitchell/O'Meara/Worpel/Shiels is pretty workmanlike and samey. Isaac Smith isn't what he once was, and James Cousins provides a point of difference, but IMO a permanent move to the middle for Chad Wingard will unlock a lot more attacking opportunities for Hawthorn.
 

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Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
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Except Clarko has 4 flags.

And its mostly Geelong supporters. Not sure why. 1989. 2008. 2013.

The Hawk supporters I suspect are young and dont remember our 1992 to 2007 drought.
As painful and deluded as Hawthorn supporters are, the 2010s Hawks were just an excellent footy team. Rosco cops the double banger because he never won a flag (though got as close as you possibly could) and he has a reputation for coaching low scoring, negative footy. He had Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Schneider, Milne and naturally attacking mids like Goddard, Dal Santo and Gram and had them scoring 60 odd in finals. Could you imagine a team with Franklin, Roughead, Gunston, Breust, Rioli etc. being coached to turn games into a 70 v 60 grind? What a waste.
 

Sirlemsip

All Australian
May 5, 2014
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Clarko's antics have disappointed me this year.

I thought he had matured and outgrown that little hot-headed bloke that punches desks and walls (he still would have been in is 40's when he was carrying on like that)

The past success has gone to his head and he really thinks he can turn water into wine.

He just doesn't have the stomach to see through a rebuild in earnest.
Oh damn. You got him there.
Clarko won't be able to get to sleep at night because he'll be ruminating about what 'Ricky112' said about him on some online forum...
Funny how you seem to know exactly what he is thinking somehow...

I'm 100% sure that Clarko would have received phone calls from multiple clubs asking if he was interested in moving since 2015 - Carlton, St Kilda, North, maybe even a sneaky call from GilWS.
 

Leeda

Talons B Sharp
Sep 26, 2012
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ah well we all know that Clarko has his irons in the fire when it comes to other suitors to his talents...
he's as sneaky as in most things so this I wouldn't put it past him..
 

Freomaniac

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May 3, 2007
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As painful and deluded as Hawthorn supporters are, the 2010s Hawks were just an excellent footy team. Rosco cops the double banger because he never won a flag (though got as close as you possibly could) and he has a reputation for coaching low scoring, negative footy. He had Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Schneider, Milne and naturally attacking mids like Goddard, Dal Santo and Gram and had them scoring 60 odd in finals. Could you imagine a team with Franklin, Roughead, Gunston, Breust, Rioli etc. being coached to turn games into a 70 v 60 grind? What a waste.
My personal view on Ross Lyon is I will always respect his 8 years at freo from 2012-19. Unlike the Saints, I have no animosity towards Ross Lyon. Him getting sacked in 2019 was probably the right year to say goodbye to him. You can make a case for either scenario for him to leave a year earlier in 2018 or a year later in 2020.

If he left in 2018, You can say he put games into a fair bit of youth in 2016-18. If he left in 2020, you can say he tried to have a finals tilt but came up short, but thats what exactly happened in 2019 anyway. I was verbally bashed by many anti ross lyon people on here about the Ross Lyon rebuild, mainly from the hawks fans, But I am glad freo stuck to their guns and saw this rebuild out.

We all know what talent he had at the saints. At Freo Ross Lyon had some talent. But that 2012-15 dockers side that made finals had a lot of similar things to the Crows finals sides under Neil Craig in 2005-09: A very good backline, a very decent midfield and a very limited forward line.

If you are wondering why Justin Longmuir has had a semi decent season in his 1st year at the dockers this season, its Partly due to Ross Lyons rebuild and playing some kids from that 2012-18 drafts. By the time Ross Lyon was sacked in 2019, the rebuild was already 75-80% completed. The coach that was going to replace him was going to have a young but promising list to work with, just needed one more year of kids coming through. And also a tiny bit of polish to finish the rebuild off. Justin Longmuir played the right kids in the right positions. One example was Adam Cerra. He was out pick 5 in 2017, for some strange reason, he spent most of 2018-9 playing in a half back flank or on the bench. I was disappointed with Ross Lyon playing him in the backline, but at least he was getting games.

Justin Longmuir put him in the middle or up forward and he gets a 30 disposal game and kicks a goal from a tight angle vs the demons. Also J-lo did play our picks 7, 8 and 9 from last years draft in Hayden Young, Caleb Serong and Liam Henry. Serong is a chance to win this years rising star.



This has to be the worst possible season to tank though since the draft will be even more of a lucky dip than usual
Hawks at least have pick 3.

Crows on the other hand have picks such as picks 1, 11 (GWS pick if they finish 9th), 20, 30 (I think thats the demons 2nd rounder if they finish 10th). Crows also have the fortune that their local SANFL played a full season unlike the VFL and WAFL.
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
3,089
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Are they genuinely underperforming, or are they more supply-reliant and teammate-reliant than we realised?

I feel like with a lot of forwards at the moment, they're restrained by their delivery, and the way the game is played today.

The Hawks definitely need something more dynamic in the midfield, to give their forwards the best chance possible. Mitchell/O'Meara/Worpel/Shiels is pretty workmanlike and samey. Isaac Smith isn't what he once was, and James Cousins provides a point of difference, but IMO a permanent move to the middle for Chad Wingard will unlock a lot more attacking opportunities for Hawthorn.
All forwards are supply reliant.

They're not really underperforming to be honest - Gunston is 6th in the Coleman and playing in a team with awful delivery and average key forwards (deserves B&F in my opinion). Breust kicked 34 goals last year and is still a clever and mercurial small forward. They were both AA in 2018 when we last had a remotely competitive midfield.

The reason they are mentioned as trade bait is nothing to do with underperformance. Quite the opposite in fact - they are mentioned as they are some of the only older players on the Hawthorn list that have genuine trade currency.
 

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worldlylizard19

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Sep 23, 2012
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You need elite talent to win flags, chances of drafting 3-4 elite talent in a small sample of drafts with picks in the range of 15-20 would almost be zero in today's recruiting era.

Hawks had 3 options. Become a mid table team like the bombers, tank to the bottom to get high draft picks or gamble on previously high rated talent at other clubs. They chose to gamble, now they are at the bottom anyway and can start drafting elite talent.
 

Aramis

Premiership Player
Jul 31, 2016
4,135
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You need elite talent to win flags, chances of drafting 3-4 elite talent in a small sample of drafts with picks in the range of 15-20 would almost be zero in today's recruiting era.

Hawks had 3 options. Become a mid table team like the bombers, tank to the bottom to get high draft picks or gamble on previously high rated talent at other clubs. They chose to gamble, now they are at the bottom anyway and can start drafting elite talent.
When you have a chance to go again, which we absolutely did, you take the gamble. I don't regret anything the club has done. Now it's our turn to suck for a few years. We'll be back.
 

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