Club Focus Hawthorn 2019 - Roughy retires - 12/8 - O'Brien re-signs - 14/8

What does Hawthorn most need this off-season?

  • A key forward

    Votes: 24 39.3%
  • A key defender

    Votes: 11 18.0%
  • An inside mid

    Votes: 20 32.8%
  • An outside mid

    Votes: 2 3.3%
  • Bradley Hill

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    61

Changa10

Premiership Player
Feb 10, 2008
3,699
3,919
Hobart
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
DCowboys, ManU, Celtics, Blackhawks
Ahh the good old papers.

Just watch the headlines when Patton goes to the Hawks "Hawks take a huge gamble on a guy that's has 3 knee recos"

In steps that Essendon Dodo bloke with an offer and the headlines will be "Can getting Patton to Essendon propel them to the top 4"

Bookmark it.
Already happened TazHawk15 ;)


702599
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

citizen-erased

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 11, 2007
16,238
11,826
Victoria
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Tottenham, Bayern, Milan
thats gotta be the biggest list of current year contract expiries ive ever seen.
More than half the list!

Not surprising though. Outside Mitchell, i reckon the hawks have smartly planned this to assess each and every one of those with options to extend and for how long.

looks like most of their speculatives (be they young and unproven, or old and potentially done) are in that group.
 

rogiebear93

Premiership Player
May 17, 2017
4,566
8,649
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Based on this data, Hawthorn are;
- the oldest list in the comp, with an average age of 25.1 years
- the second most experience list with an average of 84.2 career games
- have an average height of 188.4cm, which is the seventh tallest in the AFL
- have the shortest average contract length in the league

Your picks in the first five rounds of the draft are:
1st round pick (tied to Hawthorn - currently pick 4)
2nd round pick (tied to Hawthorn - currently pick 22)
3rd round pick (tied to Port Adelaide - currently pick 46)
5th round pick (tied to Hawthorn - currently pick 76)
5th round pick (tied to Collingwood - currently pick 89)

To check the draft order (updated weekly) see the thread here.

So, Hawks fans, who do you want to re-sign, and who is on the trade table?
At the moment I'd expect Rough to retire, I'd delist Mohr, Schoenmakers, Miles. I reckon Puopolo will get interest as a stop gap for clubs that need forward pressure as he can still offer that, otherwise he may retire.

Where do you see the gaps in the list as it stands?
A pillar in the forward line, and a suitable long term replacement for Frawley. Beyond that, we just need some more mature depth players through the midfield. For now, we have a few guys in a really good age bracket as midfielders, but if they miss it starts to fall on 20 year olds.

I think for the most part, most clubs have gaps, even the ones that are winning premierships. Ultimately list management isn't all focusing on filling gaps, and may be just as much or more about just improving the quality of the players you have on hand. Unless that gap is a gaping hole, you'll always take a star player on offer even if they don't fit position wise, than someone who fills a need but is only a slight upgrade.

Which players do you think are gettable to fill those needs?
I think Patton has already been spoken about, who fits our need as a big forward. Obviously risk attached.

Insofar as midfield depth goes, we're targeting the right people in that area for mine. Coniglio as a free agent would be ideal. Greenwood from the Crows would be great depth.

What will it take, given the current trade and draft value on hand?
Patton is not a necessary piece at GWS, and he's a BIG guy with knee problems and a big salary. He's risky for GWS to keep, particularly with the sheer volume of talented kids they have. Plus they need the money, so he'll come cheap to the club if we're taking most of his promised wages.

Coniglio I'd hope joins as an RFA. So if those two moves can be completed how the club would like, we'd be able to keep a hand at the draft table for the first time in a while.

I can see Smith being traded, which would have been worth a lot more in previous - but would still be a second rounder in the pocket. To the dogs, Pick 24.

If we can get those pieces and head into the draft with a Pick 4, 22 and 24, I'd be very happy with that. It's an extra second rounder we'll need for Maginness purposes and a top end young kid.

The fate of a club can be turned around on relatively little these days.
 

Mikevk123

Team Captain
Jun 25, 2019
338
170
AFL Club
Essendon
potential Hawthorn line up next season.

B B.Stratton J.Frawley B.Hardwick
HB J.Scrimshaw J.Sicily J.Impey
C T.Scully T.Mitchell B.Hill
HF J.Gunston M.Lewis C.Wingard
F L.Bruest J.Patton J.Ross
Foll: B.Mcevoy J’O’Meara S.Coniglio
Inter: R.Henderson, J.Worpel, L.Shiels, J.Cousins.

Looks good Dosent it. If the hawks trade hard they could be back into things next season. I believe they will probably get Hill and Patton. Not sure about cogs.

You would say the hawks have to have a clean out though. And they need to invest in the draft ASAP. I think letting Issac Smith go to the Western Bulldogs would be a smart idea. With the potential return of brad Hill this would make sense. And we know GWS have had interest in Jonathan Ceglar. If they can somehow get ceglar into the Patton deal it would help them a whole lot. Their going to loose a lot of experience in the off Season so holding onto fringe experienced players might Have to happen.

Their list who stays and who goes?
Harry Morrison-Stay
Jarryd Roughead-Retire
Tom Mitchell-Stay
Jarmen Impey-Stay
James Worpel-Stay
James Sicily-Stay
Mitch Lewis-Stay
Shaun Burgoyne-Retire
Jeager O’Meara-Stay
Conor Nash-Stay
James Frawley-Stay
Conor Glass-Stay
Grant Birchall-Stay
Blake Hardwick-Stay
Issac Smith-Free Agency
Daniel Howe-Stay
Jonathan Ceglar-Trade
Jack Gunston-Stay
Luke Bruest-Stay
Chad Wingard-Stay
Tom Scully-Stay
Tim O’Brien-Stay
Ben Stratton-Stay
Ryan Shoenmakers-Retire
Liam Shiels-Stay
Paul Puopolo-Retire
Marc Pittonet-Stay
Ricky Henderson-Stay
Kaiden Brand-Stay
David Mirra-Delist
Jack Scrimshaw-Stay
Oliver Hanrahan-Stay
Jackson Ross-Stay
Darren Mitchington-Stay
Jacob Koschitzke-Stay
Matthew Walker-Stay
Dylan Moore-Stay
Tim Mohr-Retire
Harrison Jones-Stay
Teia Miles-Delist
Damon Greaves-Stay
James Cousins-Stay
Ned Reeves-Stay
Will Golds-Stay
Changkuoith Jiath-Stay
 

eastfreo75

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 11, 2011
6,951
5,340
pakenham
AFL Club
Fremantle
Paton in - late pick

Thomlinson in - free agent

Shai Bolton in - third round pick

Midfielder first round pick ie Young

Downgrade second round for two third round picks for extra points for Maginess.
 

WWSD

Premium Platinum
Sep 7, 2009
18,622
35,973
Mill Park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Sacramento Kings
Smith is gaining significant interest from the Western Bulldogs and Melbourne.

Henderson, McEvoy and Frawley are all certain to get new 1 year deals.

The rumour on the Hawks board is that Burgoyne will go around again for another season. So he won’t be retiring.

The retirements will likely be Roughead, Puopolo, Birchall, Schoenmakers and Mohr.
 

WWSD

Premium Platinum
Sep 7, 2009
18,622
35,973
Mill Park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Sacramento Kings
Paton in - late pick

Thomlinson in - free agent

Shai Bolton in - third round pick

Midfielder first round pick ie Young

Downgrade second round for two third round picks for extra points for Maginess.
I don’t think Hawthorn have any interest in Tomlinson even though I wish they did given the lack of key position players.

Bolton doesn’t really make sense given Hawthorn already a number of players that can play his role.

Hawthorn does have interest in Hugh Dixon. What would he cost?
 

Vindicater

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 16, 2013
7,254
8,567
AFL Club
Essendon
If they can convince Cogs to come over then I think they can stay afloat next season with Mitchell returning and Wingard hopefully finding some form.

Worpel (despite Goddard) has been a bloody ripper in his second year although Sicily has wilted alittle with extra responsability (along with being thrown all over the ground)

JOM has cemented himself as a solid B grade midfielder but has continued to show he can't break a tag and has issues with his disposal. If he can become the thrid best midfielder behind Cogs and Mitchell though he becomes far more dangerous.

Scirmshaw looked decent although still needs too build a tank and has missed a worrying amount of games allready.

Impey has gone from an inconsistent player to a genuine B grader.

Hardwick and Shiel have had his colours lowered this season but still solid players.

There is not anything else worth getting excited about.

McEvoy, Henderson and Frawley are playing well but won't be apart of the next tilt.

The old brigade is just playing out their contracts.

19 unsigned players is worrying, They probably want to cut most of them but do you really want to go to the draft with that many picks at the back end? Remember each draft pick is 2 years on the roster.

Interesting times ahead for Hawthorn.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

MasterSamurai

Premiership Player
Mar 21, 2017
3,071
5,388
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
BayernMunchen
A midfield of Mitchell O’Meara Shiels Worpel plus potentially coniglio looks quite strong with Scully Henderson Impey Smith on the outside, hawks will be very solid unit in the middle of the ground!
I don’t think the backline is a huge problem, they’ve basically kept hawthorn in games most weeks this year.
Forwards? With that potential midfield, the likes of a fitter Wingard , Breust, Gunston can get back to the levels we know which leaves Lewis as the big frwd!
A full frwd ( Patton or similar type) and a nippy small frwd to replace poppy will round out the ‘immediate ‘ needs of this team going frwd .
Off course, can’t lose the first Rd pick this year, in fact two pix in the Top 20 would be ideal to have an eye on the future while going for silverware in 2020-21.
In: coniglio
Patton or similar
Frwd pocket ( maybe one of Hanrahan or Moore )
One more midfielder for depth if he doesn’t cost more than a 2nd rder
2 elite first Rd picks!
Less ******* injuries would help as well!
 

Davo-27

Premiership Player
Sep 9, 2006
3,916
4,028
Northern Melb
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Box Hill Hawks
If they can convince Cogs to come over then I think they can stay afloat next season with Mitchell returning and Wingard hopefully finding some form.

Worpel (despite Goddard) has been a bloody ripper in his second year although Sicily has wilted alittle with extra responsability (along with being thrown all over the ground)

JOM has cemented himself as a solid B grade midfielder but has continued to show he can't break a tag and has issues with his disposal. If he can become the thrid best midfielder behind Cogs and Mitchell though he becomes far more dangerous.

Scirmshaw looked decent although still needs too build a tank and has missed a worrying amount of games allready.

Impey has gone from an inconsistent player to a genuine B grader.

Hardwick and Shiel have had his colours lowered this season but still solid players.

There is not anything else worth getting excited about.

McEvoy, Henderson and Frawley are playing well but won't be apart of the next tilt.

The old brigade is just playing out their contracts.

19 unsigned players is worrying, They probably want to cut most of them but do you really want to go to the draft with that many picks at the back end? Remember each draft pick is 2 years on the roster.

Interesting times ahead for Hawthorn.
this is an accurate read on our club, i think Cogs looks too happy playing for GWS to leave there, JOM is a B-Grade mid, but what we paid for him we needed him to be an A-Grader, Scrimshaw and Impey are solid players who im happy with, Hardwick is good but not great like he was last season.

maybe the only thing you might have missed was Lewis as a developing tall forward, he is looking like he could turn into a nice tall forward for us and could be a 40-50 goal a season tall, Koschitzke has been injury plagued this season but looks a likely tall defender prospect for us and Jackson Ross has shown some good x-factor up forward kicking a lot of goals at VFL level, those 3 youngsters along with Sicily, Worpel and the rest of the established players are what i am genuinely looking forward to seeing come together.
 

Loken

Reality Educator
Apr 15, 2019
519
724
AFL Club
Essendon
Their list is in big trouble and as i have said before they are headed for mid table finishes for many years to come. It's possible mid table could be an understatement.
The bottom line is they certainly won't be a legitimate challenger for a very long time. Of course this is offset to some extent in that their supporters have recent flags to console themselves with.

They have the oldest list, weekly put out the oldest best 22 (Which is more damning) and have the most experienced list.

Experienced lists are the ones that are generally the best performing and usually the legit challengers, yet they are currently bottom 4.

If i make a comparison with my own team we average 55.4 games experience compared to 80.4. We are in the fight for finals and they are bottom 4.

Go to the draft

The big problem they face if they go to the draft is as they delist their current old players, and lose a lot of leadership, the kids who replace them take a few years to become hardened good players (No guarantees they even make it of course).

By the time that happens Birchall is 35, Bruest 32, Burgoyn 40, Ceglar 32, Frawley 34, Gunston 32, Henderson 34, McEvoy 33, Puopolo 35, Scully 31, Shiels 31, Smith 34, Stratton 34, Wingard 29. Left out Roughy as we can all agree he's gone this year for sure. Now not all those players will be there next year but the vast majority of them will be

So if they had an influx of kids by the time they end up being any good Hawthorn will find themselves with a massive load of old players again. The best scenario they can hope for is to start drip feeding the older players off year by year but that of course leaves you without much leadership and a lack of experience.

Keep trading

This is the route that keeps them in limbo far longer but keeps them more competitive in the short term.

Players like Gunston and Bruest have been found out this year as they no longer have the great players around them and as more pressure and attention has been focused on them they haven't been able to perform up to past years, despite being in their prime years now. This isn't a Hawthorn problem only because every team has or has had players that were stars in great teams but average in average teams.

If Hawthorn do trade (This is assuming that good players even want to go there) then depending on the type of players they trade for these guys can improve on their current output but it's very unlikely to be back to their old form.

Of course going down the trading route sees them with less kids than they already have leading to even more pain down the road.

A lot of Hawthorn supporters think Mitchell coming back is going to solve a lot of their issues. He will help no doubt but he is coming back from one of the worst injuries a footballer has to come back from and there are several examples of players that took years to get back to their best (Voss for example) and in the case of Nathan Browne he never returned to his best form.

There are also rumours and were discussed today on radio that there is a split between the Board and Clarkson on their strategy going forward.

The Board want to go to the draft and Clarkson wants to keep trading. Not saying this is fact but there are quite a few rumours about this.

Anyways the above are just a few examples of what they face and there are many others good and bad but what i have no doubt about is it will be a very long time before Hawthorn are a legit challenger again.
 
Last edited:

Lore

Dec 14, 2015
14,635
17,123
AFL Club
Essendon
If i make a comparison with my own team we average 55.4 games experience compared to 71.4. We are in the fight for finals and they are bottom 4.
I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but Essendon's average is 61.7 career games using the same method as Hawthorn numbers that I quoted in the OP.

Essendon is the 4th oldest list and the 16th most experienced, with 4 players over 30 (average), and it should be unsurprising that the only senior player who was not suspended in 2016 is currently the only player on the list with 200 games to his name. We have a pretty peculiar list, and unusual circumstances that make us a pretty useless comparison, least of all when put next to a club that hasn't put much effort into drafting for a long time.
 

Loken

Reality Educator
Apr 15, 2019
519
724
AFL Club
Essendon
I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but Essendon's average is 61.7 career games using the same method as Hawthorn numbers that I quoted in the OP.

Essendon is the 4th oldest list and the 16th most experienced, with 4 players over 30 (average), and it should be unsurprising that the only senior player who was not suspended in 2016 is currently the only player on the list with 200 games to his name. We have a pretty peculiar list, and unusual circumstances that make us a pretty useless comparison, least of all when put next to a club that hasn't put much effort into drafting for a long time.

I used that.

The comparison is valid imo as it doesnt matter why the numbers are as they are they are just a comparison of the numbers and respective places on the ladder.

I could have just as easily used Brisbane (56.6) who are slightly more experienced than us but almost guaranteed to play finals. The premise is the same.

Actually i got the Hawthorn average games wrong, it's 80.4 not 71.4, at least according to that link.
 
Last edited:

Rad Roo

Club Legend
Aug 2, 2017
1,381
572
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Their list is in big trouble and as i have said before they are headed for mid table finishes for many years to come. It's possible mid table could be an understatement.
The bottom line is they certainly won't be a legitimate challenger for a very long time. Of course this is offset to some extent in that their supporters have recent flags to console themselves with.

They have the oldest list, weekly put out the oldest best 22 (Which is more damning) and have the most experienced list.

Experienced lists are the ones that are generally the best performing and usually the legit challengers, yet they are currently bottom 4.

If i make a comparison with my own team we average 55.4 games experience compared to 71.4. We are in the fight for finals and they are bottom 4.

Go to the draft

The big problem they face if they go to the draft is as they delist their current old players, and lose a lot of leadership, the kids who replace them take a few years to become hardened good players (No guarantees they even make it of course).

By the time that happens Birchall is 35, Bruest 32, Ceglar 32, Frawley 34, Gunston 32, Henderson 34, McEvoy 33, Puopolo 35, Scully 31, Shiels 31, Smith 34, Stratton 34, Wingard 29. Left out Roughy as we can all agree he's gone this year for sure. Now not all those players will be there next year but the vast majority of them will be

So if they had an influx of kids by the time they end up being any good Hawthorn will find themselves with a massive load of old players again. The best scenario they can hope for is to start drip feeding the older players off year by year but that of course leaves you without much leadership and a lack of experience.

Keep trading

This is the route that keeps them in limbo far longer but keeps them more competitive in the short term.

Players like Gunston and Bruest have been found out this year as they no longer have the great players around them and as more pressure and attention has been focused on them they haven't been able to perform up to past years, despite being in their prime years now. This isn't a Hawthorn problem only because every team has or has had players that were stars in great teams but average in average teams.

If Hawthorn do trade (This is assuming that good players even want to go there) then depending on the type of players they trade for these guys can improve on their current output but it's very unlikely to be back to their old form.

Of course going down the trading route sees them with less kids than they already have leading to even more pain down the road.

A lot of Hawthorn supporters think Mitchell coming back is going to solve a lot of their issues. He will help no doubt but he is coming back from one of the worst injuries a footballer has to come back from and there are several examples of players that took years to get back to their best (Voss for example) and in the case of Nathan Browne he never returned to his best form.

There are also rumours and were discussed today on radio that there is a split between the Board and Clarkson on their strategy going forward.

The Board want to go to the draft and Clarkson wants to keep trading. Not saying this is fact but there are quite a few rumours about this.

Anyways the above are just a few examples of what they face and there are many others good and bad but what i have no doubt about is it will be a very long time before Hawthorn are a legit challenger again.
One of the more if not most sensible piece i've read on BF in recent weeks. A lot are talking like the game is played by 5 players. It's oh we have mitchell, jaeger, wingard, cog and we will be alright. Alright here means finishing just outside of the 8. As you said hawthorn's list is massive trouble, couldnt agree more. A cognilio at hawthorn is a wasted talent as he has no one to kick to and the defenders are getting past their used by date. Ever since Lake and Gibson retired, the defense looks brittle. Patton is a must get for hawthorn to be competitive as he fills in the roughead role. Even if Hawthorn gets both Patton and Cog, they will just stay afloat, i.e. finish 10th if lucky 8th. Hawthorn is quite obvious in adopting the keep the ship steady approach with free agents approach where as you said the board perhaps want to go a different route. Unlike geelong where they still have selwood dangerfield hawkin who are great players that you could add b graders and occasionally unearth a gem in kelly, hawthorn does not have these great players anymore and so the ones you add will have to take the brunt of responsibility. Rebuild is not necessary, bottom out for 2 years, get 4 quality kids and some decent midtier free agent, you regenerate much quicker.
 

Lore

Dec 14, 2015
14,635
17,123
AFL Club
Essendon

Procrastinator35

Hall of Famer
Feb 24, 2013
36,403
29,651
The GoldenBrown Heart of Victoria
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Man Utd Green Bay Melb Storm
Smith is gaining significant interest from the Western Bulldogs and Melbourne.

Henderson, McEvoy and Frawley are all certain to get new 1 year deals.

The rumour on the Hawks board is that Burgoyne will go around again for another season. So he won’t be retiring.

The retirements will likely be Roughead, Puopolo, Birchall, Schoenmakers and Mohr.
Unless he pings another hammy in the meantime that is.....Stratton should never have been made captain or given a one year extension....It should have been O'Meara as our Captain all along.....Stratton merely represents a holding pattern.

All of Mirra, Miles, Minchington, Brand & Pittonet should also go....And if it was up to me, then Stratton would be joining them.
 
Last edited:

jenniferHAWKinS

Club Legend
Jul 6, 2015
1,133
2,120
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Their list is in big trouble and as i have said before they are headed for mid table finishes for many years to come. It's possible mid table could be an understatement.
The bottom line is they certainly won't be a legitimate challenger for a very long time. Of course this is offset to some extent in that their supporters have recent flags to console themselves with.

They have the oldest list, weekly put out the oldest best 22 (Which is more damning) and have the most experienced list.

Experienced lists are the ones that are generally the best performing and usually the legit challengers, yet they are currently bottom 4.

If i make a comparison with my own team we average 55.4 games experience compared to 80.4. We are in the fight for finals and they are bottom 4.

Go to the draft

The big problem they face if they go to the draft is as they delist their current old players, and lose a lot of leadership, the kids who replace them take a few years to become hardened good players (No guarantees they even make it of course).

By the time that happens Birchall is 35, Bruest 32, Burgoyn 40, Ceglar 32, Frawley 34, Gunston 32, Henderson 34, McEvoy 33, Puopolo 35, Scully 31, Shiels 31, Smith 34, Stratton 34, Wingard 29. Left out Roughy as we can all agree he's gone this year for sure. Now not all those players will be there next year but the vast majority of them will be

So if they had an influx of kids by the time they end up being any good Hawthorn will find themselves with a massive load of old players again. The best scenario they can hope for is to start drip feeding the older players off year by year but that of course leaves you without much leadership and a lack of experience.

Keep trading

This is the route that keeps them in limbo far longer but keeps them more competitive in the short term.

Players like Gunston and Bruest have been found out this year as they no longer have the great players around them and as more pressure and attention has been focused on them they haven't been able to perform up to past years, despite being in their prime years now. This isn't a Hawthorn problem only because every team has or has had players that were stars in great teams but average in average teams.

If Hawthorn do trade (This is assuming that good players even want to go there) then depending on the type of players they trade for these guys can improve on their current output but it's very unlikely to be back to their old form.

Of course going down the trading route sees them with less kids than they already have leading to even more pain down the road.

A lot of Hawthorn supporters think Mitchell coming back is going to solve a lot of their issues. He will help no doubt but he is coming back from one of the worst injuries a footballer has to come back from and there are several examples of players that took years to get back to their best (Voss for example) and in the case of Nathan Browne he never returned to his best form.

There are also rumours and were discussed today on radio that there is a split between the Board and Clarkson on their strategy going forward.

The Board want to go to the draft and Clarkson wants to keep trading. Not saying this is fact but there are quite a few rumours about this.

Anyways the above are just a few examples of what they face and there are many others good and bad but what i have no doubt about is it will be a very long time before Hawthorn are a legit challenger again.
Pathetic sypnosis of a club you clearly hate. Stick to rubbishing your own. We could easily challenge again next year with a good off season (e.g Cogs and Patton) and the return of Mitchell and Wingard and hopefully Birchall. I can assure you we will challenge for a flag well before your rabble!
 

Obeanie1

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 26, 2007
19,564
12,807
Darwin
AFL Club
West Coast
Pathetic sypnosis of a club you clearly hate. Stick to rubbishing your own. We could easily challenge again next year with a good off season (e.g Cogs and Patton) and the return of Mitchell and Wingard and hopefully Birchall. I can assure you we will challenge for a flag well before your rabble!

Hawks may bounce back next season and surprise but there is nothing "easy" about that. In fact a hell of a lot would need to go right for the Hawks to challenge in 2020.

Get Conligio as a rfa - not easy.
T Mitchell returns to his best after a bad break - not easy.
Land Patton and he bounces back after three knee recos - not easy.
Burgoyne maintains his output aged 37 - not easy.
Birtchell bounces back after a long injury layoff - ditto
Player all over 30 such as Frawley, Stratton, Pupolo, McEnvoy, Henderson dont fall away - ditto

Look at the injury lists going around the league after round 16, this is a brutal competition. You need quality depth to challenge deep into September.

To challenge in 2020 I would suggest close the everything would need to go right for the Hawks. Everything.
 
Top Bottom