Hawthorn and Umpires?

[jonoman89]

Care to look at the free kick ladder for the last 4 years?

Ever thought most of them were for a reason?

You've had some pretty dirty players over the last few years who have given away many, many free kicks. Hawthorn pride themselves on their unsociable footy. You've got to expect to give frees away if you play like Clarko wants.

 

[MightyHawks]

Buddy got 2 frees against Melbourne.

The first one, Roughy took the mark anyway.

The second one, Buddy took the mark while being held onto.

Thanks Umps!

 

[H2F]

Please, please, show us these statistics that prove a systematic bias against Hawthorn in the current AFL system.

You guys are clinically insane.

We have had the most free kicks against us collectively for the last 10 years.

See this link.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2009&type=TA&sby=9

Start at 2010 and work your way back each year to see the stats.

We are top of the free kick ladder 6 out of 10 years, and in the four we are still 2 or 3, and only once as low as 6th.

This is across different coaches and different players.

The stats do not lie, this all started when Schwab was appointed in 2000.

 

[Visions]

We have had the most free kicks against us collectively for the last 10 years.

See this link.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2009&type=TA&sby=9

Start at 2010 and work your way back each year to see the stats.

We are top of the free kick ladder 6 out of 10 years, and in the four we are still 2 or 3, and only once as low as 6th.

This is across different coaches and different players.

The stats do not lie, this all started when Schwab was appointed in 2000.

Conspiracy! Better get Mulder and Scully onto the case.

 

[GameOver]

No problem with the ones Franklin gives away it is the ones he doesn't get that frustrate Hawks supporters.

Probably the best post we can expect on this thread. Franklin consistently manhandles opponents and also consistently gets manhandled. Perfect example of his poor discipline was Sunday evening when tackled on the boundary. The tackle slipped to the knee (IMO not below) and he stood there waiting for the whistle. Ended up being HTB because he stopped playing.

I think if Buddy learnt when manhandled, to not instantly grab the opposition player back, he'll get a few more. It's tough because as a forward it's a reaction when in a 1 on 1 contest, you want to outmuscle/ outposition the back. If he's able to hold his ground without getting into a grapple, the umpire will eventually see those holds. As I said, a difficult thing to do.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Cant use it as an excuse we got burned in the 08 GF too

Bollocks. I'll gladly go through each decision with you, would take a while, but I think you'd be surprised by the results.

What are these boundaries of 'unfair' play you talk about. Some examples would make for interesting reading I'm sure.

Taking a player out after he has disposed of it, to prevent linking up further down the posession chain. Come on, the umpires even worked this one out and tried to stop it. The 50m rule is still being applied, saw it at least once on the weekend.

Hawthorn players deliberately kneeing blokes in the thigh to dish out corkies, think Mike Sheahan even wrote an article about that one.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/hawks-stars-accused-of-corking/story-e6frf9if-1111116213679

 

[Pessimistic]

For years Hawthorn have pushed the boundries in regards to fair play, Franklin is another example. However their fans are happy claiming the umps have something against the Hawks, so we should let them continue, rather then help fuel their delusions.

Just like a geelong player whining when their free ride came to an end

 

[Hahndozer]

So why does Franklin for example never get a free kick.

He has his jumper pulled, his neck ripped off, he is pushed in the back, it does not matter.

Anyone who is open and honest and watches him knows this to be true.

How is this so, if the umpires are fair?

I think Tony Lockett and Wayne Carey got about 3 free kicks between them in their careers. It has always been the case with the gun key forwards. Not suggesting it's fair, but it's what the best have always had to deal with.

Certainly not some conspiracy against the hawks.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

The best anti-buddy examples I can think of are 1) When Rance punched him in the face st the bottom of a pack and Buddy ended up with a 50m penalty against and 2) when Zac Dawson went back with the flight of the ball and his fist connected with Buddy's mouth, knocking out a tooth, but no free kick.

Overall we get some things going our way and some against (we couldn't buy a HTB decision last year) but it's Buddy that misses out on a LOT that he should get.

 

[Wallaby]

The stats do not lie, this all started when Schwab was appointed in 2000.

This is great! See, from a Richmond fan's point of view, we believe the reason we get a crap run from the umps is because we sacked Gieschen when he was our coach in '99. Now, he's got it in for us.

So what are other club's 'conspiracy theories' for why the umps/AFL admin are against them (or alternatively, why they 'favor those other bastards').

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

This is great! See, from a Richmond fan's point of view, we believe the reason we get a crap run from the umps is because we sacked Gieschen when he was our coach in '99. Now, he's got it in for us.

So what are other club's 'conspiracy theories' for why the umps/AFL admin are against them (or alternatively, why they 'favor those other bastards').

You club isn't averaging -80 free kicks a year for the last four years. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[Wallaby]

You club isn't averaging -80 free kicks a year for the last four years. Quite the opposite actually.

Ah, yes, but we always get a handful of charities in the last 5 minutes to 'make the stats look good'. Buddy's got a long way to go before he matches Richo's record of getting manhandled for no reward.

And, since they brought in the 'Deliberate rushed behind rule' a couple of years ago, how many have been awarded. Yep, let's pull one out late in the last qtr of a close game. And even better, against Richmond - that'll pay them back for Joel Bowden.

See, I can do conspiracy, too. We all can. It's probably better to vent our frustrations on the internet, rather than kick the dog.

(FWIW, I'm not really complaining about Richmond's treatment from the umps - just saying that all clubs have beefs, and I love hearing the fans theories about them).

 

[Oscarman]

A lot of Buddy's frees against are for holding the ball after he tries to run through about 10 blokes. Credit to him for trying - it is also funny to watch, except from a DT perspective.

 

[Slattery_20]

As others have said it's the ones that aren't given especially to Franklin that is frustrating. The ones Buddy gives away, well he has to wear that because sometimes he just doesn't think and the frees 9/10 are there.

He gives away frees and then has a yap and they are less inclined to give him a 50/50 one after that. Pretty obvious.
Give away the yap, Buddy.

We improved a bucketload in this area when we got rid of Solomon & MJ a few years ago. They were big infringers and big yappers.

 

[absfab]

With appologies to innocent individuals, over my footy watching life Hawthorn supporters as a group are far and away the most obnoxious winners and the least gracious losers of all. The contents of this thread only serve to add to the body of evidence.

As for the Franklin conspiracy, the answers are simple. One. He has an ongoing preference to take out the man rather than attack the ball. No amount of free kicks and suspensions seem able to convince him otherwise. Two. He's among the worst divers in the game. And I mean worst as in frequency and worst as in he's a really s**t actor.

Roll those two characteristics into one player and nobody should be surprised he gets no sympathy from the umps.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Hawthorn statistically have been the most punished side by the umps over the last few years.

Followed by Sydney and Collingwood.

Last I checked was pre-2010 though, so I don't know how much that's changed. Collingwood still generally gets outnumbered in the free kick count on a regular basis, and our forwards would be only MARGINALLY behind Franklin and Roughead in how few frees they get.

 

[djboonie]

Probably the best post we can expect on this thread. Franklin consistently manhandles opponents and also consistently gets manhandled. Perfect example of his poor discipline was Sunday evening when tackled on the boundary. The tackle slipped to the knee (IMO not below) and he stood there waiting for the whistle. Ended up being HTB because he stopped playing.

I think if Buddy learnt when manhandled, to not instantly grab the opposition player back, he'll get a few more. It's tough because as a forward it's a reaction when in a 1 on 1 contest, you want to outmuscle/ outposition the back. If he's able to hold his ground without getting into a grapple, the umpire will eventually see those holds. As I said, a difficult thing to do.

Excellent post GO. It's a 2-way street between the umps and Franklin.

IMO The forwards get a pretty rough go from the umps generally. N.Riewoldt, Carey, Richardson, and Franklin all get/got manhandled by opposition backmen, and receive/d very little from the umps. The worm has turned for Roo, but has never turned for the others.

Richo was so demonstrative that I think the umps got a kick out of the reactions, Carey fought fire with fire and grappled, and Franklin does the same. Brown is probably the only current power forward umpired fairly(Lions supporters may have other ideas)and on reflection young Jack Riewoldt seems to be well umpired.

Franklin needs to stop wrestling/grappling with these guys, and it'll go a long way to helping balance the ledger. Also needs to pick and choose when he takes on 5 guys, and correct his aggressive tackling action.

The umps also needs to take a look at the way they adjudicate some of the decisions they pay against him and work out whether they're umpiring with consistency across the field.

 

[Pessimistic]

Ah, yes, but we always get a handful of charities in the last 5 minutes to 'make the stats look good'. Buddy's got a long way to go before he matches Richo's record of getting manhandled for no reward.

And, since they brought in the 'Deliberate rushed behind rule' a couple of years ago, how many have been awarded. Yep, let's pull one out late in the last qtr of a close game. And even better, against Richmond - that'll pay them back for Joel Bowden.

See, I can do conspiracy, too. We all can. It's probably better to vent our frustrations on the internet, rather than kick the dog.

(FWIW, I'm not really complaining about Richmond's treatment from the umps - just saying that all clubs have beefs, and I love hearing the fans theories about them).

That was pathetic. Richmond guy was first to the ball. "saint" nick with his arms outstretched (like hes nailed to a friken cross or something) to the umpires in EVERY single contest where hes 'not happy' Pathetic

 

[Pessimistic]

With appologies to innocent individuals, over my footy watching life Hawthorn supporters as a group are far and away the most obnoxious winners and the least gracious losers of all. The contents of this thread only serve to add to the body of evidence.

As for the Franklin conspiracy, the answers are simple. One. He has an ongoing preference to take out the man rather than attack the ball. No amount of free kicks and suspensions seem able to convince him otherwise. Two. He's among the worst divers in the game. And I mean worst as in frequency and worst as in he's a really s**t actor.

Roll those two characteristics into one player and nobody should be surprised he gets no sympathy from the umps.

"we're Carlton F##k the rest" ?

Personally I think we got paranoid since 1996 - makes you obnoxious - - crying shame the AFL tried to engineer the death of our great club.

Clubs like carlton have been much further in the dddoo then we were then.
probably still are, if truth be known

AND heres another thought for the AFL

If you hate buddy so much, stop using him to promote the damn game so much.

And if you are so keen to stop collisions at speed - stop using footage of them to promote the damn game !!!!!

 

[LordNelson]

With appologies to innocent individuals, over my footy watching life Hawthorn supporters as a group are far and away the most obnoxious winners and the least gracious losers of all. The contents of this thread only serve to add to the body of evidence.

As for the Franklin conspiracy, the answers are simple. One. He has an ongoing preference to take out the man rather than attack the ball. No amount of free kicks and suspensions seem able to convince him otherwise. Two. He's among the worst divers in the game. And I mean worst as in frequency and worst as in he's a really s**t actor.

Roll those two characteristics into one player and nobody should be surprised he gets no sympathy from the umps.

every word an accurate one

 

[GameOver]

Excellent post GO. It's a 2-way street between the umps and Franklin.

IMO The forwards get a pretty rough go from the umps generally. N.Riewoldt, Carey, Richardson, and Franklin all get/got manhandled by opposition backmen, and receive/d very little from the umps. The worm has turned for Roo, but has never turned for the others.

Richo was so demonstrative that I think the umps got a kick out of the reactions, Carey fought fire with fire and grappled, and Franklin does the same. Brown is probably the only current power forward umpired fairly(Lions supporters may have other ideas)and on reflection young Jack Riewoldt seems to be well umpired.

Franklin needs to stop wrestling/grappling with these guys, and it'll go a long way to helping balance the ledger. Also needs to pick and choose when he takes on 5 guys, and correct his aggressive tackling action.

The umps also needs to take a look at the way they adjudicate some of the decisions they pay against him and work out whether they're umpiring with consistency across the field.

And an excellent response (TP for you). I agree that forwards generally get a rougher time than backmen. 3 umpire system may have slightly evened the ledger (though nowhere near enough) as backs get picked up on holds before the ball gets near them a little more often.

Buddy is the most free kicked player in the league and 'most' of the time, for good reason. I know for a fact, that he has done a lot of work over the pre-season to work on this. So far, not paying dividends.

 

[asanque]

Please, please, show us these statistics that prove a systematic bias against Hawthorn in the current AFL system.

You guys are clinically insane.

Its already been shown to you, but here it is again.

Hawthorn Frees Difference Record 2005-2011
2005 -62
2006 -42
2007 -57
2008 -94
2009 -58
2010 -42
2011 -9 (in 2 games)

This record is the worst in the AFL by a fair margin.
The Hawks also constantly rate last or in the bottom 3 of worst free kick differentials during this period.

Franklin v Riewoldt - Frees Difference
2005
Riewoldt +26
Franklin -11
2006
Riewoldt +13
Franklin -17
2007
Riewoldt +35
Franklin -28
2008
Riewoldt +18
Franklin -48
2009
Riewoldt +19
Franklin -18
2010
Riewoldt +16
Franklin -3
2011 (in 2 games)
Riewoldt +6
Franklin -8

Career:
Riewoldt +169
Franklin -123 (in 4 less years)

Systematic bias or your bias, that's up to you to decide.

Edit: Franklin likely would have had even more FA but for a number of ridiculous suspensions by the MRP.

 

[tazhawk]

No problem with the ones Franklin gives away it is the ones he doesn't get that frustrate Hawks supporters.

This.

 

[Slattery_20]

That was pathetic. Richmond guy was first to the ball. "saint" nick with his arms outstretched (like hes nailed to a friken cross or something) to the umpires in EVERY single contest where hes 'not happy' Pathetic

Sad thing is, that opposite end of the spectrum works.
Long term, it ends up being detrimental to their game as well when any forward (Saints or otherwise & I do include certain ex EFC full forward & current half forward in that) learns that they can get away with the appeal first, ball second mentality.

 

[djboonie]

Its already been shown to you, but here it is again.

Hawthorn Frees Difference Record 2005-2011
2005 -62
2006 -42
2007 -57
2008 -94
2009 -58
2010 -42
2011 -9 (in 2 games)

This record is the worst in the AFL by a fair margin.
The Hawks also constantly rate last or in the bottom 3 of worst free kick differentials during this period.

Franklin v Riewoldt - Frees Difference
2005
Riewoldt +26
Franklin -11
2006
Riewoldt +13
Franklin -17
2007
Riewoldt +35
Franklin -28
2008
Riewoldt +18
Franklin -48
2009
Riewoldt +19
Franklin -18
2010
Riewoldt +16
Franklin -3
2011 (in 2 games)
Riewoldt +6
Franklin -8

Career:
Riewoldt +169
Franklin -123 (in 4 less years)

Systematic bias or your bias, that's up to you to decide.

Edit: Franklin likely would have had even more FA but for a number of ridiculous suspensions by the MRP.

As a fellow Hawks supporter, comparing Riewoldt to Franklin is inaccurate. Riewoldt is a lead up mark, and contested marking forward. Franklin plays like a small forward, and takes guys on a ground level as well as in the air.

By nature they'll be umpired differently because Buddy takes chances that Riewoldt will never take.

Not sure who is an appropriate comparison as there aren't many guys that play like Franklin.