Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.
 
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jonnobackpocket

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Yeah I’ve read that article. Reads like a more moderate version of whats been alleged.

On the one hand it might prove he did it to everyone, but by virtue, isn’t that then also suggesting he is likely to have actually done what they alleging?

I think it’s a silly focus by supporters of the accused, at this point, aren’t we not yet sure this behaviour even occurred?

The fact as implied, ‘it was happening to everyone’ isn’t going to save Fagans job
Yeah I’ve read that article. Reads like a more moderate version of whats been alleged.

On the one hand it might prove he did it to everyone, but by virtue, isn’t that then also suggesting he is likely to have actually done what they alleging?

I think it’s a silly focus by supporters of the accused, at this point, aren’t we not yet sure this behaviour even occurred?

The fact as implied, ‘it was happening to everyone’ isn’t going to save Fagans job.
Tell me this- why is all the reporting saying it’s a racial problem when all this crap that went on was not targeted all a particular race?
 
Tell me this- why is all the reporting saying it’s a racial problem when all this crap that went on was not targeted all a particular race?
I'm going to take this as a good faith question - it's because, in the absence of evidence to the contrary so far, it was targeting a particular race.

Initially because the only reports came out of a report into Hawthorn's handling of indigenous players.

Now that other stories are coming out, it's because there's a massive difference between trying to force players and their partners to split up or have abortions versus taking their phone away when their kid is sick or suggesting a player doesn't hang out with his mates.

More stories may continue to come out that changes that again.
 
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Well, tbf lioninthesand that response is usually a knee-jerk reaction to perceived attacks on Fages.

There has been a media pile-on and to this point, the accused haven't put forward anything other than statements of intention to defend.

It's not unsurprising people who support him wish to defend in his absence.

The reality is that though we all like to think we are rational beings we are mostly emotional, then we rationalise our emotional positions after the fact. That said most of the vitriol in this thread is evaporating, including mine I hope.
 

jonnobackpocket

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I'm going to take this as a good faith question - it's because, in the absence of evidence to the contrary so far, it was targeting a particular race.

Initially because the only reports came out of a report into Hawthorn's handling of indigenous players.

Now that other stories are coming out, it's because there's a massive difference between trying to force players and their partners to split up or have abortions versus taking their phone away when their kid is sick or suggesting a player doesn't hang out with his mates.

More stories may continue to come out that changes that again.
It was a question in good faith. Could we agree that it was not just indigenous players being told what was best for them? As far as the abortion and being made to break up with partners- I think that is something judgement should be cast on once we have a right of reply. I get it was an investigation into indigenous players but would you not have to talk to everyone in the club at that time to gauge if the behaviour was targeted?
 

Sausages

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The reality is that though we all like to think we are rational beings we are mostly emotional, then we rationalise our emotional positions after the fact. That said most of the vitriol in this thread is evaporating, including mine I hope.

I dunno mate - I guess things have got a bit heated at times between folks, true.

But I feel, in the main, we all deserve gold stars and an extra bikkie for arvo tea, because despite there being some differences, everyone seems reasonably content to hear and understand before responding.

We've come a long way, BF :p
 

M Malice

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Tell me this- why is all the reporting saying it’s a racial problem when all this crap that went on was not targeted all a particular race?
Because that was the specific task of the Hawthorn report ie. treatment of Indigenous players and by extension their families.

If there were similar reports done into the treatment of all players at a particular club they may find similar results as exampled by Clarkson/Sam Mitchell relationship revealed yesterday eg. phone confiscation, suggesting it was inappropriate for Sam and his wife to have more children. While nowhere as severe as the alleged "forcing a players partner to have an abortion" incident it is still broadly on the same subject matter of phones, babies/children. On the forced abortion speculation I find it extremely hard to believe that any human being let alone a coach of a footy club would be that aggressive in that sort of situation, context is everything.

As far as the reporting goes, the media love scandal and clicks... they will continue to go with the subtle suggestions and inferences that Clarkson and Fagan are racists, if it in fact turns out to be true that will be a mere bonus for the media nothing more.
 
It was a question in good faith. Could we agree that it was not just indigenous players being told what was best for them? As far as the abortion and being made to break up with partners- I think that is something judgement should be cast on once we have a right of reply.
There has been a right of reply, just not in the report - both Clarkson and Fagan have explicitly denied any such meetings in their statements. This is messy and it's not going get unmessy any time soon.
I get it was an investigation into indigenous players but would you not have to talk to everyone in the club at that time to gauge if the behaviour was targeted?
There's been time and still is plenty of time for someone to come forward and say that the same happened to them. Instead we get more innocuous accounts about not going to Colac...
 
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Because that was the specific task of the Hawthorn report ie. treatment of Indigenous players and by extension their families.

If there were similar reports done into the treatment of all players at a particular club they may find similar results as exampled by Clarkson/Sam Mitchell relationship revealed yesterday eg. phone confiscation, suggesting it was inappropriate for Sam and his wife to have more children. While nowhere as severe as the alleged "forcing a players partner to have an abortion" incident it is still broadly on the same subject matter of phones, babies/children. On the forced abortion speculation I find it extremely hard to believe that any human being let alone a coach of a footy club would be that aggressive in that sort of situation, context is everything.

As far as the reporting goes, the media love scandal and clicks... they will continue to go with the subtle suggestions and inferences that Clarkson and Fagan are racists, if it in fact turns out to be true that will be a mere bonus for the media nothing more.

"On the forced abortion speculation I find it extremely hard to believe that any human being let alone a coach of a footy club would be that aggressive in that sort of situation, context is everything."

And I think this statement goes a long way towards how I am trying to evaluate things.

Whist there is an indication that racism or racial stereotyping has been at play historically at the club there is certainly the taint of a culture of bullying.

The anti discrimination act states:


"A person must not offend, humiliate, intimidate, insult or ridicule another person on the basis of race, including other things, where a reasonable person, having regard to all the circumstances, would anticipate the other person would be offended, humiliated, intimidated, insulted or ridiculed. This can be a form of bullying; it is against the law.

It is important to note that where harassment/bullying happens but does not relate to attributes covered by discrimination law, it is still a serious problem and may be a breach of occupational health and safety laws. Organisations must provide a safe environment for their employees and for people coming into their workplace.

Section 104 of the Anti-Discrimination Act says organisations must take reasonable steps to ensure no member, officer, employee or agent engages in discrimination or prohibited conduct. Further, it says an organisation that does not comply with this requirement is liable for any breach of the Act committed by any of its members, officers, employees or agents."


That last part is a big problem for Hawthorn and the AFL.

All of this would indicate that based upon any finding of racist overtones in the multiple enquiries soon to be underway would see this matter before the Australian Human Right Commission, or even a senate inquiry. The courts in now inevitable, civil at least if not criminal.
 

jonnobackpocket

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I’ve explained that in detail in 3 or 4 posts recently on this thread, I’m not answering the same question again.
I’ve explained that in detail in 3 or 4 posts recently on this thread, I’m not answering the same question again.
You said that the exact same situation could be viewed differently depending on if a player was is indigenous or not. If the behaviour is across the board then this suggests cultural insensitivity rather than racism, in my opinion of course. One is a case of people needing to better educated, which has come along way in very recent times, the other says your a pretty ordinary human. Massive difference.
 

lioninthesand

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You said that the exact same situation could be viewed differently depending on if a player was is indigenous or not. If the behaviour is across the board then this suggests cultural insensitivity rather than racism, in my opinion of course. One is a case of people needing to better educated, which has come along way in very recent times, the other says your a pretty ordinary human. Massive difference.
You said that the exact same situation could be viewed differently depending on if a player was is indigenous or not. If the behaviour is across the board then this suggests cultural insensitivity rather than racism, in my opinion of course. One is a case of people needing to better educated, which has come along way in very recent times, the other says your a pretty ordinary human. Massive difference.


Yes, with some of the more moderate examples, that is true. Cultural considerations 100% can make an act that might be rather benign to one person, incredibly traumatic to another.

Call it what you want - cultural insensitivity, an unsafe work place, bullying and intimidation, racism, a win at all costs culture - the outcome will be the same.

They are not going to excuse the suffering of these families if proven true, because it happened to white players as well - even pushing this is actually saying ‘it happened’ which we haven’t even established yet!

Also, it has been treated as a racial issue because a group of indigenous players are making the accusations. The Mitchell story broke last night and a story I read this morning had a paragraph about the Mitchell claims at the start of the story.

The media have not said ‘it’s a club wide, black and white issue’ to this point….. because it wasn’t.

I assume this new angle you’ve adopted of ‘it happened to everyone so it’s ok’ is because you’ve decided the ‘it didn’t happen’ angle is no longer justifiable?

I’m still personally hoping it didn’t happen to the families in the review and more broadly, white players - and will wait for the investigation to give its findings.
 
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jonnobackpocket

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Yes, with some of the more moderate examples, that is true. Cultural considerations 100% can make an act that might be rather benign to one person, incredibly traumatic to another.

Call it what you want - cultural insensitivity, an unsafe work place, bullying and intimidation, racism, a win at all costs culture - the outcome will be the same.

They are not going to excuse the suffering of these families if proven true, because it happened to white players as well - even pushing this is actually saying ‘it happened’ which we haven’t even established yet!

Also, it has been treated as a racial issue because a group of indigenous players are making the accusations. The Mitchell story broke last night and a story I read this morning had a paragraph about the Mitchell claims at the start of the story.

The media have not said ‘it’s a club wide, black and white issue’ to this point….. because it wasn’t.

I assume this new angle you’ve adopted of ‘it happened to everyone so it’s ok’ is because you’ve decided the ‘it didn’t happen’ angle is no longer justifiable?

I’m still personally hoping it didn’t happen to the families in the review and more broadly, white players - and will wait for the investigation to give its findings.
New angle? Didn’t know I had an angle, if I have had any angle, as you put it, it has been that let’s get all the facts and context before judging. Not like some on here that straight off the bat decided Fagan’s job is untenable. At point did I say it’s OK? I said big difference between racism and cultural insensitivity. So don’t put words in my mouth and then make an argument against it. You then say I hope it didn’t happen to the families- no s**t would anyone want that to happen? As for the ‘it didn’t happen’ angle - think the jury is still out on some it as both have completely denied it.
 

lioninthesand

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New angle? Didn’t know I had an angle, if I have had any angle, as you put it, it has been that let’s get all the facts and context before judging. Not like some on here that straight off the bat decided Fagan’s job is untenable. At point did I say it’s OK? I said big difference between racism and cultural insensitivity. So don’t put words in my mouth and then make an argument against it. You then say I hope it didn’t happen to the families- no s**t would anyone want that to happen? As for the ‘it didn’t happen’ angle - think the jury is still out on some it as both have completely denied it.

You have pushed the ‘if they did it to white players it’s not racism’ thing all day, on me an others.

I assumed that meant you’d decided that it was likely that it did happen to other players under Clarko?

That seems like a new angle you’ve developed, in the last 48 hours.

If you haven’t concluded that, then hypothesising about how that will get them out of it on a ‘racism downgrade’ is not only a strange take, but also is pointless isn’t it?

If we are waiting for findings, let’s wait for the findings?

At this stage it hasn’t been proved they did it to anyone, if it proven the engaged in what’s been accused, trying to down grade it from ‘racism’ to ‘cultural insensitivity’ is not going to save Fagans job, IMO.
 

jonnobackpocket

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You have pushed the ‘if they did it to white players it’s not racism’ thing all day, on me an others.

I assumed that meant you’d decided that it was likely that it did happen to other players under Clarko?

That seems like a new angle you’ve developed, in the last 48 hours.

If you haven’t concluded that, then hypothesising about how that will get them out of it on a ‘racism downgrade’ is not only a strange take, but also is pointless isn’t it?

If we are waiting for findings, let’s wait for the findings?

At this stage it hasn’t been proved they did it to anyone, if it proven the engaged in what’s been accused, trying to down grade it from ‘racism’ to ‘cultural insensitivity’ is not going to save Fagans job, IMO.
I haven’t concluded anything, my point was IF things have gone down, but it was not targeted- how can it be racism???? I’m sorry I ‘pushed’ my take on you- so if a post agrees with you it’s just a post but if it offers a different take it’s been ‘pushed’ on people-ok. Anyway this ain’t going far might leave it be.
 

lioninthesand

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I haven’t concluded anything, my point was IF things have gone down, but it was not targeted- how can it be racism???? I’m sorry I ‘pushed’ my take on you- so if a post agrees with you it’s just a post but if it offers a different take it’s been ‘pushed’ on people-ok. Anyway this ain’t going far might leave it be.

No worries at all, happy to leave it.
 
Well, tbf lioninthesand that response is usually a knee-jerk reaction to perceived attacks on Fages.

There has been a media pile-on and to this point, the accused haven't put forward anything other than statements of intention to defend.

It's not unsurprising people who support him wish to defend in his absence.
As long we can avoid blaming the alleged victims, or justifying the alleged behaviour as merely the white man's burden, while doing it.
 

Sausages

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As long we can avoid blaming the alleged victims, or justifying the alleged behaviour as merely the white man's burden, while doing it.

Jiv, I cannot speak for anyone bar myself in response :)

At no time have I ever insinuated anything remotely like disenfranchising the victims or the like.

I am happy to put my posting record forward for scrutiny.

I agree, it is the MINIMUM standard for engaging in the discourse productively.
 

briztoon

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This might open a can of worms, but when Leigh Matthews brought all the wives in and told them they couldn't have sex or had to abstain during certain times of the season so it didn't disrupt the season with player unavailability.

Wouldn't this be considered the same sort of "control" or "abuse" of human rights or civil liability?
Definitely not a workplace appropriate directive, wouldn't you say?
And if so, why aren't we talking or making something of this behaviour?
This is pretty standard for a lot of elite level athletes; Olympic athletes, elite level cyclists at TDF etc.
 

Sausages

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If you see in my posting history forthwith

(POST DELETED)

please know that it's the AFL, not me :D :D :D
 
Jiv, I cannot speak for anyone bar myself in response :)

At no time have I ever insinuated anything remotely like disenfranchising the victims or the like.

I am happy to put my posting record forward for scrutiny.

I agree, it is the MINIMUM standard for engaging in the discourse productively.
Yeah it's a general comment not directed at you specifically :)
 

Sausages

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Yeah it's a general comment not directed at you specifically :)

I mean, I dunno....around here, I find myself comfortable being the Bez to everyone else's Happy Mondays :D

(This is posted at a time prior to Bez and the Happy Mondays becoming involved in a scandal of morality if not criminality and I reserve the right to edit this comment in the unlikely event that occurs)

*edit - Davemonkey don't leave me hangin' here man! :p
 
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Mar 20, 2016
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5PM Channel 7 news leads with
NRL grand final
Hawthorn president "no crisis" speech
Then the WH&S looking into Hawthorn
Then Florida hurricane

Story will still be hanging around for sometime

So far I have seen reports on many far flung international news services.

CNN, Al Jazeera, BBC, DW, Reuters and The Guardian, I am sure there are many more.

It's become an international embarrassment for a Government who are trying to focus on the
"Indigenous Voice to Parliament" as way forward in reconciliation.

I am guessing they are lining up the AFL for one hell of a shirt front.
 
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Justice is something ultimately unattainable (traditionally followed by 'in this world') but nevertheless often expected to be done and equally often conflated with law.

However sometimes justice need not be done but needs to be seen/perceived to be done lest chaos grow and consume neighbouring elements and, should it be a time of social fragility, the whole of the current edifice. That very process (unfortunately for said system but happily for the burn it all down crowd) removes another brick in wall of credibility of the 'justice system'.


aka sometimes the powers that be need a scapegoat to feed the mob lest they themselves become the target.
 
Mar 20, 2016
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Justice is something ultimately unattainable (traditionally followed by 'in this world') but nevertheless often expected to be done and equally often conflated with law.

However sometimes justice need not be done but needs to be seen/perceived to be done lest chaos grow and consume neighbouring elements and, should it be a time of social fragility, the whole of the current edifice. That very process (unfortunately for said system but happily for the burn it all down crowd) removes another brick in wall of credibility of the 'justice system'.


aka sometimes the powers that be need a scapegoat to feed the mob lest they themselves become the target.

Lucrezia Borgia: "Give them something, before they take everything"
 
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