Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Sausages]

Calling people infantile doesn't add anything to your argument, the need for a totally AFL independent enquiry has been advocated by several Federal Government Ministers and the AFLPA weeks ago so I don't know how you missed that.

I am not here to state facts, so far I have seen none and my only case is if the AFL has too much influence on the outcomes then they will be forever tainted, as will those involved.

Did you consider that having the AFL trying to spin what ever happened for it's own good, and Gil's reputation may not be in Fagan's best interest?

I mean more that the actual complainants, imo, should be putting forward their own panel given they have concerns over transparency et al.

And look, yes, you could be right re: Fagan. But if that is the truth of the matter, then so be it.

Sorry for the late reply, drove to Laos and back to The Phon today

 

[Saucery]

I mean more that the actual complainants, imo, should be putting forward their own panel given they have concerns over transparency et al.

And look, yes, you could be right re: Fagan. But if that is the truth of the matter, then so be it.

Sorry for the late reply, drove to Laos and back to The Phon today

All good brother, always enjoy the passion and consideration of your posts.

 

[Sausages]

I guess perhaps I'm naively disappointed that there isn't really any leadership being shown, by ether side.

It's a serious allegation and deserves better than endless fencing in the PR sphere, nevermind the corridors of power.

Basically, I need Picard to walk in, assemble a team, tell them what needs doing and make it so

 

[Viceregal]

Basically, I need Picard to walk in, assemble a team, tell them what needs doing and make it so

Make it so works for the crew of the Enterprise.

When Picard was doing diplomacy he got to wear funny hats, learn dances, learn traditional speeches etc and find ways to bring disparate elements who had chosen Starfleet as a mutually acceptable neutral arbiter together for mutual understanding etc.

So yes a Picard figure would be useful but he would need to represent an agency trusted by both parties with a history of impartiality...which an AFL Commission certainly ain't!!!

 

[davemc_lions]

What is cancel culture about the claims being made? Should it just be swept under the bed? Does it sound like reasonable behaviour? Is it not worthy of further investigation? I’m really interested to know.

No should not be swept under a bed.. Although everyone is guilty now and becomes a pile on. How long did that Bombers CEO last.
Honestly there has to be some truth in what was said which is horrible.

 

[western royboy]

No should not be swept under a bed.. Although everyone is guilty now and becomes a pile on. How long did that Bombers CEO last.
Honestly there has to be some truth in what was said which is horrible.

No one is or will be found guilty, it’s not a never will be a criminal trial but it has to be investigated. No comparison with Essendon cluster*, Thorburn trying to play the victim is plain bullshit, no way religious kooks like him should be in charge of a club where a significant portion of your AFLW team is gay. That’s where the push back came from. When queried about the Church’s views on homosexuality on SEN he went for the default “but we do really good work for some people” without saying but we persecute other sections of society. Anytime you hear a religious nut run that line, you know they have something to hide. It’s like Catholics continuing to turn up to a place and listen gay men preach about “sin” of homosexuality and then say I go to church but I don’t support the hierarch’s treatment of clerical abuse victims…it is pure hypocrisy. I cannot see how the Hawthorn issue could have been handled any differently and yes unfortunately there will be collateral damage in the interim and Fagan and our club may wear some of it. But it’s better that the issue is exposed and dealt with rather than staying hidden and festering away. The AFL cannot have it both ways, they have to walk the talk. Fagan and Clarkson both stood down voluntarily and probably in some regard a bit too soon because Gil the wonder boy jumped on it and was going to get things rolling within 24hrs blah,blah…that was never going to be the case. Regardless our club is bigger than one individual and we have people in charge who will make the appropriate decisions at the appropriate time for the betterment of the club.
But with respect, calling it a cancel culture is just rubbish.

 

[Mighty Lions]

No one is or will be found guilty, it’s not a never will be a criminal trial but it has to be investigated. No comparison with Essendon cluster*, Thorburn trying to play the victim is plain bullshit, no way religious kooks like him should be in charge of a club where a significant portion of your AFLW team is gay. That’s where the push back came from. When queried about the Church’s views on homosexuality on SEN he went for the default “but we do really good work for some people” without saying but we persecute other sections of society. Anytime you hear a religious nut run that line, you know they have something to hide. It’s like Catholics continuing to turn up to a place and listen gay men preach about “sin” of homosexuality and then say I go to church but I don’t support the hierarch’s treatment of clerical abuse victims…it is pure hypocrisy. I cannot see how the Hawthorn issue could have been handled any differently and yes unfortunately there will be collateral damage in the interim and Fagan and our club may wear some of it. But it’s better that the issue is exposed and dealt with rather than staying hidden and festering away. The AFL cannot have it both ways, they have to walk the talk. Fagan and Clarkson both stood down voluntarily and probably in some regard a bit too soon because Gil the wonder boy jumped on it and was going to get things rolling within 24hrs blah,blah…that was never going to be the case. Regardless our club is bigger than one individual and we have people in charge who will make the appropriate decisions at the appropriate time for the betterment of the club.
But with respect, calling it a cancel culture is just rubbish.

This is where inclusion and treating everyone equal falls down every time with attitudes like yours. If you cant have a difference of opinion but still respect and accept people having a different view to yours, we will be always stuck in this shitty bucket of division. A significant portion of the Essendon AFLW team may be gay. Do you know that for a fact or just presuming that they are? That said, some of the team may be straight and of Christian religon......who cares...they are there to play professional football not preach they are gay or Christian followers. Thorburn's belief's should not be an issue. His ability to do his job successfully is the challenge, not his views on sexual orientation or abortion. Let all be adults instead of miserable, grumpy people who can't get over someone have an opinion/belief that's different to yours.

 

[Quested]

I've tried to keep up in this thread and read along with the investigation, and I apologise if I missed something. Did I read correctly that the AFL does not know the accusing parties? Is this because Hawthorn have withheld that information, or was that detail never in the original Hawthorn report. And if that's the case did the ABC journo just go looking for disgruntled ex-Hawthorn players, because I thought it came from the report getting leaked?

 

[western royboy]

This is where inclusion and treating everyone equal falls down every time with attitudes like yours. If you cant have a difference of opinion but still respect and accept people having a different view to yours, we will be always stuck in this shitty bucket of division. A significant portion of the Essendon AFLW team may be gay. Do you know that for a fact or just presuming that they are? That said, some of the team may be straight and of Christian religon......who cares...they are there to play professional football not preach they are gay or Christian followers. Thorburn's belief's should not be an issue. His ability to do his job successfully is the challenge, not his views on sexual orientation or abortion. Let all be adults instead of miserable, grumpy people who can't get over someone have an opinion/belief that's different to yours.

Being gay isn’t a choice, believing in a sky fairy is. If he is a follower of his Church no worries, but not when you are the Chairman of the board. It has NO comparison with the Hawthorn situation, ZERO, NONE, NADA.

 

[nup]

Threads going well still I see, happy Friday

 

[Saucery]

Barrett says Fagan might return at his own call, and goes into bat for him (kind of).

Hawthorn investigation more complex than we've ever seen - AFL Daily

Damian Barrett and Nat Edwards bring you all the latest footy news on AFL Daily. Should Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan return to work during the investigation? (0:00); The position of the league and the clubs concerned (5:40); The state of play halfway through trade period (11:35); GWS may...

omny.fm

 

[Mighty Lions]

Being gay isn’t a choice, believing in a sky fairy is. If he is a follower of his Church no worries, but not when you are the Chairman of the board. It has NO comparison with the Hawthorn situation, ZERO, NONE, NADA.

Gay being a choice or not (&i agree 100% its not) isnt the debate. We all have the right to have beliefs &/or opinions. In your eyes him having different beliefs/opinions to yours & others does not give him the chance to hold down a Chairman’s position which is morally wrong and bordering on extremist.

 

[western royboy]

Gay being a choice or not (&i agree 100% its not) isnt the debate. We all have the right to have beliefs &/or opinions. In your eyes him having different beliefs/opinions to yours & others does not give him the chance to hold down a Chairman’s position which is morally wrong and bordering on extremist.

It’s a different debate - the Hawthorn situation is not cancel culture - that was my point - you want to talk about being morally and ethically wrong and you use an extremist church to call me an extremist- wow just wow

 

[Mighty Lions]

It’s a different debate - the Hawthorn situation is not cancel culture - that was my point - you want to talk about being morally and ethically wrong and you use an extremist church to call me an extremist- wow just wow

Hello!!!! Read you overnight post… you mentioned the recent Essendon saga not me. In mentioning it, you should not be surprised to get a reply with a view on it as well mate. Wow just wow back.
I dont agree with the guys beliefs at all but that is ok and so it should be for everyone else to think the same or different. Including you

 

[western royboy]

Hello!!!! Read you overnight post… you mentioned the recent Essendon saga not me. In mentioning it, you should not be surprised to get a reply with a view on it as well mate. Wow just wow back.
I dont agree with the guys beliefs at all but that is ok and so it should be for everyone else to think the same or different. Including you

it was put together as part of being cancel culture - I said there was no comparison in issues. That was the context.

 

[Mighty Lions]

it was put together as part of being cancel culture - I said there was no comparison in issues. That was the context.

Then i guess you need to be more precise in your posts roylad.

 

[western royboy]

Then i guess you need to be more precise in your posts roylad.

Alternatively you can read the post

 

[Viceregal]

re the recent Mighty Lions v western royboy interactions ...

Is it possible that someone could believe and successfully process simultaneously the following:

• personally of a fundamentalist bent so having practicing homosexuality as a disqualifier for church membership (along with unmarried heterosexual activity, oppressing the poor, etc)
• professionally representing the Essendon FC based on the core values of the club based around football etc.

if those two are not mutually exclusive then comes the question of 'what is the core business'

- the core business of the EFC is football ... how essential to it activities is the CEO in terms of gay inclusivity

- would a person be equally banned from being the CEO of a company that holds a lot of property in lower socio-economic areas (we used to call them slum lords) as such is against their religious convictions? You could make a case that the Christian should recuse himself on the basis of his own conscience but could/should the company bounce him if he is personally ok representing them and is not going to apply his own moral judgements to the company?

- could a person be on the board of Lorna Jane (which is not exactly inclusive in the body shape dept) and a Church (which does not discriminate on body type) - would it be ok for LJ to kick them out because their church has fat people in it?

- should a person who does not wear purple to show their allegiance to the LGTBQ+ alliance on the appropriate day be disqualified from holding a position at the Lions FC or being a member of the club

 

[Sausages]

I've tried to keep up in this thread and read along with the investigation, and I apologise if I missed something. Did I read correctly that the AFL does not know the accusing parties? Is this because Hawthorn have withheld that information, or was that detail never in the original Hawthorn report. And if that's the case did the ABC journo just go looking for disgruntled ex-Hawthorn players, because I thought it came from the report getting leaked?

Yes, the AFL is still unaware of who the complainants are.

As for how the journo knew who they were, it’s presumed he discovered that information during his own investigation. I could be wrong on that though.

 

[davemc_lions]

Sorry was me who mentioned cancel culture and Essendon CEO.
I cannot see this not playing out for ages now as involved Indigenous players, even though I think the whole thing is horrible no matter what colour you are.
It now goes up a level there needs to be blood
Why I mentioned the Essendon CEO he was gone within 24 hours as there needed to be blood.

Things changed what people said openly 10-20-30 years ago is not what is said today
Personally for me saying to someone to get rid of their unborn child over steps a line. No matter what era we lived in.
Would there been the same press if it was some white kid from a poor suburb. You hope so although I fear not.
Was this done only to the Indigenous players or to anyone from a lower socioeconomic area or even kids from rich families.
This report is only about Indigenous players, now do we look at is this how Hawthorn operated in those years no matter who you were.
Did other clubs do the same, do they do the same now?
Assume some clubs went too far without actually thinking they did at the time. Or maybe they knew and no one cared.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Sorry was me who mentioned cancel culture and Essendon CEO.
I cannot see this not playing out for ages now as involved Indigenous players, even though I think the whole thing is horrible no matter what colour you are.
It now goes up a level there needs to be blood
Why I mentioned the Essendon CEO he was gone within 24 hours as there needed to be blood.

Things changed what people said openly 10-20-30 years ago is not what is said today
Personally for me saying to someone to get rid of their unborn child over steps a line. No matter what era we lived in.
Would there been the same press if it was some white kid from a poor suburb. You hope so although I fear not.
Was this done only to the Indigenous players or to anyone from a lower socioeconomic area or even kids from rich families.
This report is only about Indigenous players, now do we look at is this how Hawthorn operated in those years no matter who you were.
Did other clubs do the same, do they do the same now?
Assume some clubs went too far without actually thinking they did at the time. Or maybe they knew and no one cared.

I dont believe they insisted the pregnant mother to have an abortion as reported. Thats simply media going overboard and reporting sensationalism not reporting facts. Unfortunately ( like in this circumstance) some people believe what is said without facts to back it up.

 

[Eons]

If anyone has the time, you should watch this video with Daryl Davis. Bit of background, Daryl Davis is a musician who engaged with members of the KKK through his travels across America as a musician. Over 300 former members of the KKK denounced their beliefs and left the KKK after their relationship with Daryl. Really amazing guy who goes to show that when you exclude people based on their beliefs, no matter how different they are from yours, nothing will get resolved.

 

[M Malice]

If anyone has the time, you should watch this video with Daryl Davis. Bit of background, Daryl Davis is a musician who engaged with members of the KKK through his travels across America as a musician. Over 300 former members of the KKK denounced their beliefs and left the KKK after their relationship with Daryl. Really amazing guy who goes to show that when you exclude people based on their beliefs, no matter how different they are from yours, nothing will get resolved.

That full version was a brilliant Podcast like most of Joe Rogan's, love him as a discussion host, he listens and bites back if he needs to, no softball sycophant style discussions with Joe.

 

[Eons]

That full version was a brilliant Podcast like most of Joe Rogan's, love him as a discussion host, he listens and bites back if he needs to, no softball sycophant style discussions with Joe.

The Tyson interviews are really good stuff too. Gives you a greater understanding of why he is the way he is. Really smart and insightful guy too.

 

[davemc_lions]

If anyone has the time, you should watch this video with Daryl Davis. Bit of background, Daryl Davis is a musician who engaged with members of the KKK through his travels across America as a musician. Over 300 former members of the KKK denounced their beliefs and left the KKK after their relationship with Daryl. Really amazing guy who goes to show that when you exclude people based on their beliefs, no matter how different they are from yours, nothing will get resolved.

I know off topic although that youtube brought back some memories from the early 90's. My boss over from the US had the very same views.
Was a good boss and we had people who where not white working for us and you not see any bias
After work hours we often have long talks about all things and how US and Australia where different.
Was quite confronting as I was very young at the time, this nice older guy personal beliefs differed a lot from mine.
The justification about why he thought things was like what was said on youtube.
We had many many discussions about things and seeing he was in Australia and disconnected from his social group.
I honestly think his eyes opened somewhat to things.

Those really open talks with him had an effect on me throughout my life. I have meet many people with different views in my life.
From their point of view they are right as how they raised or their social group is, most people are not pure evil
You can differ and find some common ground if you are open to hear what they say, then as said they often are as well.
I am not always right and done many things I regretted later