Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

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dlanod

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This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.
 
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BRAB

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WOW......Who is saying that??? Who is "some"? Please elaborate.

I dont get your need to come out & post that.......is this what you think and you thought you might get them out and say they are from "some"?

If you’re going to pop a gasket every time somebody says something you don’t like it’s going to be a long couple of months. Read back through the thread and you should be able to figure out what I was referring to.
 

M Malice

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I think if they told young players to abort their children in a non racist manner they’d still not be allowed to coach.
I would be gobsmacked if Clarkson/Fagan or anyone from a footy club would flat out tell a player to abort a child, context is everything eg. was it in a range of options given to the player.

Telling Hodgey he can’t go to Colac on weekends because he eats to many pies when he goes back there, might be completely different to telling an indigenous player they can’t associate with their family or go home when they want to.

Their social position, welfare requirements, position in the club, available network, cultural needs and expectations, might be totally different - so the exact scenarios applied to 2 different players can still posses ethical differences.

The way minorities are treated requires additional levels of cultural awareness especially in an environment like an AFL footy club.

It’s a nothing point anyway because I doubt any white players will come out with anything even remotely close to what the accusers have claimed to experience.

Because some white players have similar stories does not ‘cancel out the racism factor’.

FWIW - I don’t think it was ever ‘Blatant racism’ - I’m not sure it’s ever been discribed as that.

The accusations are several indigenous families suffered bullying, manipulation, control, were isolated etc - what happened to white players is border line inconsequential.

I think we all know Clarko put players through s**t at different times.
More Clarkson claims emerge as Hawks coach and his family dragged into saga

The Age alleges Clarkson engaged in “controlling behaviour” towards Mitchell – including on the eve of an interstate game telling the star mid to “hand in his mobile phone” – along with the rest of the players in the team, despite one of his daughters being frequently in hospital.

Journalist Caroline Wilson also alleges Clarkson “expressed surprise” when Mitchell announced he was having twin girls when son Smith was 11 months old and “wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career”.

In Wilson’s article, it is alleged Clarkson “agreed” to treat Mitchell with “more respect” when the pair spoke at the season’s end, but again “questioned the wisdom of the timing” of his daughters’ birth.
__________________________________________________
Eerily similar to accusations in the Hawthorn report IMO. I would hazard a guess that if an investigation/inquiry was to be done into the treatment of all players(who could have anonymity) at footy clubs there would be similar stories. The Hawthorn one by design was only to investigate Indigenous treatment which is great, all clubs should do the same as a matter of course over the next period of time.

As I said in a previous post, cultural insensitivity on behalf of the accused not racism, Clarkson/Fagan were also let down by the HFC due to lack of training and awareness of Indigenous culture and issues and being expected to be "father figures" to these young players who generally would have been living away from family for the first time in their lives.
 

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Maboo

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No, I do not assume all white players have a strong family network around them.

Yep, all people fall on hard times and in that situation, whether it’s desperation, isolation, poverty, mental illness etc - the way those in positions of power interact with those in vulnerable positions, becomes especially important.

Welfare becomes paramount, especially in big organisations.

Feels like the defence is becoming (not from you, just generally) ‘they probably treated everyone like s**t’.. which I don’t know is going to be especially helpful.
CAAA7829-8234-47E9-BBA9-8F88011F9299.jpeg
 

Mighty Lions

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If you’re going to pop a gasket every time somebody says something you don’t like it’s going to be a long couple of months. Read back through the thread and you should be able to figure out what I was referring to.
Not "popping a gasket" at anything mate. :rolleyes: Just fascinated why you would say that is all. I read back the thread and i didn't see anything that justified you saying what you said. Besides that, I asked if you could elaborate and help me understand better.....is that a demanding question?
 

martinson

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In mathematics 2+ 2 = 4 but not necessarily in life.

Jumping to conclusions because whatever is alleged to have happened to such and such has some sort of similarity to whatever is alleged to have happened here won't stand up on an evidential basis and nor should it.

I'm sure players have been bullied, whatever in footy clubs. The majority have likely been treated well.

I really dislike the way alleged examples from the past are dredged up from isolated instances to try to establish some sort of pattern . Then everyone is all over it .

Journos are burning the midnight oil on this trying to find every inappropriate thing Clarkson has done in his career.

It was always going to happen I suppose.
 

BRAB

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Not "popping a gasket" at anything mate. :rolleyes: Just fascinated why you would say that is all. I read back the thread and i didn't see anything that justified you saying what you said. Besides that, I asked if you could elaborate and help me understand better.....is that a demanding question?

If you’re not popping a gasket, perhaps don’t start your posts in all caps as it makes you look really angry.

If you’ve gone back and have had another look and still don’t get it, I don’t think I can help you. Maybe just eat a snickers and come back tomorrow.
 

Nunez

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WOW......Who is saying that??? Who is "some"? Please elaborate.

I dont get your need to come out & post that.......is this what you think and you thought you might get them out and say they are from "some"?

Believe the point he's trying to make is the initial report was that of racist issues, and with Sam Mitchell coming out about his experience in 2011 some are suggesting it's not a matter of Clarko being racist, but equally bad to all players and that that is a 'good thing' when in reality it's probably worse for them.
 

martinson

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I fail to see how something can happen to one player (allegedly) out of hundreds and anyone would therefore extrapolate that as being the way all players were treated. Or even some.

People are losing the plot.

If this were a proper trial it would've been aborted 100 times already.
 

M Malice

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Believe the point he's trying to make is the initial report was that of racist issues, and with Sam Mitchell coming out about his experience in 2011 some are suggesting it's not a matter of Clarko being racist, but equally bad to all players and that that is a 'good thing' when in reality it's probably worse for them.
I can in no way see it being worse, if said behaviour is not motivated by racism I can't envision widespread controlling/domineering behaviour being perceived as worse than singling out Indigenous players and families.
 

jonnobackpocket

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Telling Hodgey he can’t go to Colac on weekends because he eats to many pies when he goes back there, might be completely different to telling an indigenous player they can’t associate with their family or go home when they want to.

Their social position, welfare requirements, position in the club, available network, cultural needs and expectations, might be totally different - so the exact scenarios applied to 2 different players can still posses ethical differences.

The way minorities are treated requires additional levels of cultural awareness especially in an environment like an AFL footy club.

It’s a nothing point anyway because I doubt any white players will come out with anything even remotely close to what the accusers have claimed to experience.

Because some white players have similar stories does not ‘cancel out the racism factor’.

FWIW - I don’t think it was ever ‘Blatant racism’ - I’m not sure it’s ever been discribed as that.

The accusations are several indigenous families suffered bullying, manipulation, control, were isolated etc - what happened to white players is border line inconsequential.

I think we all know Clarko put players through s**t at different times.
Every single report mentions the fact they were indigenous players. Should the story not be Clarkson acted like an asshole at times to numerous players no matter what race. ?
 

Saucery

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I would be gobsmacked if Clarkson/Fagan or anyone from a footy club would flat out tell a player to abort a child, context is everything eg. was it in a range of options given to the player.


More Clarkson claims emerge as Hawks coach and his family dragged into saga

The Age alleges Clarkson engaged in “controlling behaviour” towards Mitchell – including on the eve of an interstate game telling the star mid to “hand in his mobile phone” – along with the rest of the players in the team, despite one of his daughters being frequently in hospital.

Journalist Caroline Wilson also alleges Clarkson “expressed surprise” when Mitchell announced he was having twin girls when son Smith was 11 months old and “wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career”.

In Wilson’s article, it is alleged Clarkson “agreed” to treat Mitchell with “more respect” when the pair spoke at the season’s end, but again “questioned the wisdom of the timing” of his daughters’ birth.
__________________________________________________
Eerily similar to accusations in the Hawthorn report IMO. I would hazard a guess that if an investigation/inquiry was to be done into the treatment of all players(who could have anonymity) at footy clubs there would be similar stories. The Hawthorn one by design was only to investigate Indigenous treatment which is great, all clubs should do the same as a matter of course over the next period of time.

As I said in a previous post, cultural insensitivity on behalf of the accused not racism, Clarkson/Fagan were also let down by the HFC due to lack of training and awareness of Indigenous culture and issues and being expected to be "father figures" to these young players who generally would have been living away from family for the first time in their lives.

Prime example of cohesive control, considered a form of abuse by most legal systems; if not directly a crime in itself.
 
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Tom14

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I fail to see how something can happen to one player (allegedly) out of hundreds and anyone would therefore extrapolate that as being the way all players were treated. Or even some.

People are losing the plot.

If this were a proper trial it would've been aborted 100 times already.

What are you talking about. One player and their former partner allege there was pressure to abort.

Other players and partners allege hostility to them, and efforts to separate them including moving them out in a single day and requiring them to change SIM cards. For one former partner this was while she was pregnant and then she miscarried and was unable to communicate with her partner who had been separated.

These are serious incidents that require investigation by an appropriate body.
 

martinson

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I've got no reason to be any sort of wrap for Clarkson as a bloke but he's just being hung out to dry unfairly.

People already have their minds made up on this now they're looking for anything that looks corroborative to back it up.

Looks like a lynch mob to me.
 

Jivlain

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I fail to see how something can happen to one player (allegedly) out of hundreds and anyone would therefore extrapolate that as being the way all players were treated. Or even some.

People are losing the plot.

If this were a proper trial it would've been aborted 100 times already.
How's that going to work?

(Me, on trial for burglary)

I fail to see how something can happen to one shop (allegedly) out of hundreds and anyone would therefore extrapolate that as being evidence that I burgled all those stores. Or even some.

People are losing the plot.

This case, and all reports of me allegedly burgling a mere handful of stores, should be dismissed.




I think I'd rather hire that cat instead.
 
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martinson

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What are you talking about. One player and their former partner allege there was pressure to abort.

Other players and partners allege hostility to them, and efforts to separate them including moving them out in a single day and requiring them to change SIM cards. For one former partner this was while she was pregnant and then she miscarried and was unable to communicate with her partner who had been separated.

These are serious incidents that require investigation by an appropriate body.
Where did I say it didn't require investigation ?

Of course it does.

But it's now a media circus and some of the drivel that is now being dredged up isn't warranted

It's also evident the accusatory tone that's been adopted by some on here from Day 1 and continues, trying to pretend that they're looking at it impartially.

Let's see what they've got to say about it whenever they get the chance.
 

martinson

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(Me, on trial for burglary)

I fail to see how something can happen to one shop (allegedly) out of hundreds and anyone would therefore extrapolate that as being evidence that I burgled all those stores. Or even some.

People are losing the plot.

This case, and all reports of me allegedly burgling a mere handful of stores, should be dismissed.
Abort doesn't mean dismissal.

Far from it.
 

M Malice

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How's that going to work?

(Me, on trial for burglary)

I fail to see how something can happen to one shop (allegedly) out of hundreds and anyone would therefore extrapolate that as being evidence that I burgled all those stores. Or even some.

People are losing the plot.

This case, and all reports of me allegedly burgling a mere handful of stores, should be dismissed.

I think I'd rather hire that cat instead.
Did you single out and rob only stores owned by Indigenous people?
 

Saucery

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Minister for Science and Industry Ed Husic was asked on the ABC's Q and A program whether it was time for the federal government to take the Hawthorn racism investigation out of the hands of the AFL in the interests of independence.

"The issue is how long and how often the AFL has these allegations put to them and if they worked as furiously on this issue as they do to get new TV rights, maybe we'd get somewhere," Mr Husic said.

"When it means something to them, they work real hard, and I think on this they are not working as hard.
"If it does take an independent investigation, you put that on the table and obviously we'll take that on board, but there is a strong level of feeling about this."

Looks like the Feds are fed up with the autocracy called the AFL.

quote-and-it-s-a-hard-it-s-a-hard-it-s-a-hard-it-s-a-hard-it-s-a-hard-rain-gonna-fall-bob-dyla...jpg
 

martinson

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Minister for Science and Industry Ed Husic was asked on the ABC's Q and A program whether it was time for the federal government to take the Hawthorn racism investigation out of the hands of the AFL in the interests of independence.

"The issue is how long and how often the AFL has these allegations put to them and if they worked as furiously on this issue as they do to get new TV rights, maybe we'd get somewhere," Mr Husic said.

"When it means something to them, they work real hard, and I think on this they are not working as hard.
"If it does take an independent investigation, you put that on the table and obviously we'll take that on board, but there is a strong level of feeling about this."

Looks like the Feds are fed up with the autocracy called the AFL.
Looks like the Feds are looking for headlines and want to make heroes of themselves as usual.

Not that I'm any wrap for the AFL obviously.
 

Nunez

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Minister for Science and Industry Ed Husic was asked on the ABC's Q and A program whether it was time for the federal government to take the Hawthorn racism investigation out of the hands of the AFL in the interests of independence.

"The issue is how long and how often the AFL has these allegations put to them and if they worked as furiously on this issue as they do to get new TV rights, maybe we'd get somewhere," Mr Husic said.

"When it means something to them, they work real hard, and I think on this they are not working as hard.
"If it does take an independent investigation, you put that on the table and obviously we'll take that on board, but there is a strong level of feeling about this."

Looks like the Feds are fed up with the autocracy called the AFL.

View attachment 1523533

I've seen Gil McLachlan negotiate TV
I've seen best coaches unhappy to see me
I've seen the best of men reduced to madness
I've seen the worst of men reduced to sadness
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard
It's a hard rains gonna fall
 

martinson

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He was asked a direct question on Q & A, what did you expect, no comment?
I would expect nothing else but a leading question from Q/A with the response ready to go.

The report was completed a couple of weeks ago . They're trying to have an inquiry. How furiously does he want them to work ?

He's just another political tosser looking to score a few points from his rapturous crowd.