Hawthorn FC worst nightmare the 2017 Draft

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LoL.

What impact did chasing JOM have on the actual Hawthorn players who were touted as potential trade offerings, how were they valued??

Should Adelaide have sold the farm for Gibbs...just because they chased him?? Is Adelaide's reputation now ruined and they wont be able to trade for players?
Perhaps you will have your answer to the Gibbs questions this September/October when Adelaide really need him to support Sloane.

And ummmm.... your first question doesn't make sense phrased in the past tense.
 

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doppleganger

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Perhaps you will have your answer to the Gibbs questions this September/October when Adelaide really need him to support Sloane.
No, according to your dribble, Adelaide targeting Gibbs but then not meeting Carlton's demands, even if they were clearly going to lose, and leaving Gibbs hanging out to dry will be noticed by other players.

In the world of AFL recruitment, this will somehow supposedly hurt Adelaide.

So following your logic through come October, Adelaide will be boycotted by AFL players because they will 'remember' Adelaide leaving Gibbs hanging out to dry...but supposedly all be lining up to go to Hawthorn, because Hawthorn showed they will allow themselves to be bent over for a player they 'value'.
 

threesixpio

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disagree. That's just revisionism at its finest. Young players learn from playing alongside the best players. The way they prepare, the way they communicate, the way they position themselves, etc etc etc. The idea that good young players aren't going and getting the ball because S Mitchell is just boggles the mind. If the kids were good enough they'd go get the ball too.
No disagreement. But Hodge and Burgers cuts it for me. And it's not always true too. One can hog the ball a little - Sammy did do things "his own way" a bit (the only knock I give him). Losing Sammy at training is a loss - not sure about on game day
 

Richo83

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Hawthorns recent run of premiership contained 1 Free Agent. James Frawley.
And that was an effective use of free agency no?

My point is, free agents want two things, money and success. Most clubs are trying to clear salary cap space to lure big signings, can Hawthorn lure players with the promise of success, as opposed to being able to sell the club as on the cusp of a premiership? Not sure. All I know is every club has access to free agency, many clubs have access to academies, yet Hawthorn is currently the club with the weakest draft capital, even though it sits 17th.
 

threesixpio

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And that was an effective use of free agency no?

My point is, free agents want two things, money and success. Most clubs are trying to clear salary cap space to lure big signings, can Hawthorn lure players with the promise of success, as opposed to being able to sell the club as on the cusp of a premiership? Not sure. All I know is every club has access to free agency, many clubs have access to academies, yet Hawthorn is currently the club with the weakest draft capital, even though it sits 17th.
Have any struggling clubs got free agents before?
 

Saint

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"We're gonna build a wall and Mexico's gonna pay for it." - Trump Fans

"Sam Mitchell is our next coach and West Coast's paying for it" - Hawks fans

"If we get rid of immigrants who take our jobs there will be more low paying jobs for 'Mericans" - Trump fans

"We got rid of Sam Mitchell who did the midfield job best so that our worse players would have jobs" - Hawthorn fans

"We're going to stop free trade agreements and bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA" - Trump fans

"We're going to trade in enough free agents to move from 2nd bottom back into top 4 contention" - Hawthorn fans

Delusional
 

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"We're gonna build a wall and Mexico's gonna pay for it." - Trump Fans

"Sam Mitchell is our next coach and West Coast's paying for it" - Hawks fans

"If we get rid of immigrants who take our jobs there will be more low paying jobs for 'Mericans" - Trump fans

"We got rid of Sam Mitchell who did the midfield job best so that our worse players would have jobs" - Hawthorn fans

"We're going to stop free trade agreements and bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA" - Trump fans

"We're going to trade in enough free agents to move from 2nd bottom back into top 4 contention" - Hawthorn fans

Delusional


Hawthorn
 

Blue1980

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People would've said similar about the 2004 list and yet 3 years later we were playing finals. And this was when the only way you could gain players was via trade or draft.

Free Agency and Academies, of which hawthorn have a few decent looking prospects change the landscape.

All this "Hawthorn have no picks and won't play finals for 6+ years!" is wishful hyperbole.
Well who is the current equivalent of Crawford, hodge, Mitchell, Croad, Sewell, Brown, Bateman, Osborne, Williams, Ladson and Campbell, who were the 2008 premiership players on the list prior to the 2004 draft.

Now not all of those mentioned were superstars, and only the first 4-5 were front liners.

Granted one thought a premiership was happening anytime soon in 2004, I would argue the current list is in even worse shape than that. But just say, for instance it isn't and it's on par with 2004, this is what happened next in 2004:

Got roughy, franklin and Lewis in the first 7 picks, 3 club legends in the 2004 draft. Not bad for 'speculative' draft picks.

Then further high picks in burchill and rioli made the side even stronger.

From that basis some canny recruiting from other clubs (Gilham and Dew), great coaching and a bit of luck landed a flag way ahead of what anyone thought possible in 2008.

So the differences to then and now are very obvious, you don't have any picks available anywhere early in this years draft, so chances of finding 3 future or current a graders at the end of the season are slim to none.

Now I know there is free agency now and there wasn't then, but to find 3 a grade free agents would cost a crap load of money and they would all be at least in their mid 20s and on fairly decent money.

The other option is to bundle up players to get early picks, but that may translate to a first and second rounder at best, and further gut what current talent is there.

I've seen it time and time again with clubs thinking their infallible just because of who they are and what has happened in the past.

It never works like that, otherwise Fitzroy would of remained a super power, we would of never gone down the ladder and Essendon wouldn't of tried a dodgy supplements scheme to keep up.

2008 was the footballing equivalent of catching lightning in a bottle, you will realize how great an achievement it was as time goes on. Landing 3 club legends in one draft is probably a 1 in 50 year occurrence, at best.
 

Blue1980

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Nobody would have said that. Everyone would have said: Well they'll have another priority pick this year, so we can see how they'll get out of this mess. Plus they've got some good players from their previous priority picks and drafts.

GWS and GC changed the landscape by soaking up all the good draft picks so clubs were overly pursuing FA, now players are expecting well overs to move clubs for FA, it's not the way to build a team from 2nd bottom, maybe if you're still at the top. But if you've lost twice to a club that finished bottom 4 last year and lost key players, you can't FA your way out of trouble.
Lucky their club isn't as stupid as some of their fans, some seem to think they can just sign 5 free agents a year and it will be all good
 

Saint

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Lucky their club isn't as stupid as some of their fans, some seem to think they can just sign 5 free agents a year and it will be all good
If their club has another trade period like the last one and the fans still support them, what's going to stop them doing it again the next year, and the year after that. What if Clarkson is wrong and nobody's brave enough to tell him?

Maybe Clarko sits in list management meetings and says 'Nah, I'm going to tweak the game-plan a little bit, so if you just trade out the next season's draft picks for Steve Motlop and we bring in Sam Reid as a free agent on 600k, I'll have this team winning premierships again." and everyone just nods their head in agreement and after it happens, the fans never question it.

That's exactly how an organisation runs itself into the ground.
 
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If their club has another trade period like the last one and the fans still support them, what's going to stop them doing it again the next year, and the year after that. What if Clarkson is wrong and nobody's brave enough to tell him?

Maybe Clarko sits in list management meetings and says 'Nah, I'm going to tweak the game-plan a little bit, so if you just trade out the next season's draft picks for Steve Motlop and we bring in Sam Reid as a free agent on 600k, I'll have this team winning premierships again." and everyone just nods their head in agreement and after it happens, the fans never question it.

That's exactly how an organisation runs itself into the ground.
all the more interesting when known positive influences on a what is a clearly aggressive and at the very least different if not slightly sociopathic personality exit, such as Fagan.

It's much like what happened with our very own 4 time premiership winning idol. Both have quite similar personalities in some ways - aggressive, totally confident, mad as a cut snake. There's a very real danger you can get bigger than the club
 
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If their club has another trade period like the last one and the fans still support them, what's going to stop them doing it again the next year, and the year after that. What if Clarkson is wrong and nobody's brave enough to tell him?

Maybe Clarko sits in list management meetings and says 'Nah, I'm going to tweak the game-plan a little bit, so if you just trade out the next season's draft picks for Steve Motlop and we bring in Sam Reid as a free agent on 600k, I'll have this team winning premierships again." and everyone just nods their head in agreement and after it happens, the fans never question it.

That's exactly how an organisation runs itself into the ground.
That's a pretty big if with an even bigger maybe.
 

threesixpio

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If their club has another trade period like the last one and the fans still support them, what's going to stop them doing it again the next year, and the year after that. What if Clarkson is wrong and nobody's brave enough to tell him?

Maybe Clarko sits in list management meetings and says 'Nah, I'm going to tweak the game-plan a little bit, so if you just trade out the next season's draft picks for Steve Motlop and we bring in Sam Reid as a free agent on 600k, I'll have this team winning premierships again." and everyone just nods their head in agreement and after it happens, the fans never question it.

That's exactly how an organisation runs itself into the ground.
Yeah nah

He has been there done that and he is not a total doofus.
 
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Well who is the current equivalent of Crawford, hodge, Mitchell, Croad, Sewell, Brown, Bateman, Osborne, Williams, Ladson and Campbell, who were the 2008 premiership players on the list prior to the 2004 draft.

Now not all of those mentioned were superstars, and only the first 4-5 were front liners.

Granted one thought a premiership was happening anytime soon in 2004, I would argue the current list is in even worse shape than that. But just say, for instance it isn't and it's on par with 2004, this is what happened next in 2004:

Got roughy, franklin and Lewis in the first 7 picks, 3 club legends in the 2004 draft. Not bad for 'speculative' draft picks.

Then further high picks in burchill and rioli made the side even stronger.

From that basis some canny recruiting from other clubs (Gilham and Dew), great coaching and a bit of luck landed a flag way ahead of what anyone thought possible in 2008.

So the differences to then and now are very obvious, you don't have any picks available anywhere early in this years draft, so chances of finding 3 future or current a graders at the end of the season are slim to none.

Now I know there is free agency now and there wasn't then, but to find 3 a grade free agents would cost a crap load of money and they would all be at least in their mid 20s and on fairly decent money.

The other option is to bundle up players to get early picks, but that may translate to a first and second rounder at best, and further gut what current talent is there.

I've seen it time and time again with clubs thinking their infallible just because of who they are and what has happened in the past.

It never works like that, otherwise Fitzroy would of remained a super power, we would of never gone down the ladder and Essendon wouldn't of tried a dodgy supplements scheme to keep up.

2008 was the footballing equivalent of catching lightning in a bottle, you will realize how great an achievement it was as time goes on. Landing 3 club legends in one draft is probably a 1 in 50 year occurrence, at best.
This discussion is based on what bigfooty posters think of hawthorns list

If you want a comparison trawl through and find what bigfooty posters thought of hawthorns list actually in 2004 not with the benefit of hindsight

I'm tipping equally dismissive
Now I'm not saying the list is stronger or weaker
I'm just very scathing of bigfooty opinion. Particularly if they have an axe to grind

I do remember both Wallace and eade wo passes over the vacant coaching position saying they thought richmonds and Bulldogs list were a lot more advanced. They also had the opportunity to draft rough and/or buddy

Again. The 2004 draft haul was a big part of the resurgence. Resurgence to a team which pinched a flag early and then went on to a threepeat
Is that the measure? Or just to be realistically be able to win one flag. If that's the case then the recruiting job before hawthorn now is not as great a task as was achieved 2004-2015
 
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If their club has another trade period like the last one and the fans still support them, what's going to stop them doing it again the next year, and the year after that. What if Clarkson is wrong and nobody's brave enough to tell him?

Maybe Clarko sits in list management meetings and says 'Nah, I'm going to tweak the game-plan a little bit, so if you just trade out the next season's draft picks for Steve Motlop and we bring in Sam Reid as a free agent on 600k, I'll have this team winning premierships again." and everyone just nods their head in agreement and after it happens, the fans never question it.

That's exactly how an organisation runs itself into the ground.
Aren't you describing Ross Lyon?
 

Saint

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This discussion is based on what bigfooty posters think of hawthorns list

If you want a comparison trawl through and find what bigfooty posters thought of hawthorns list actually in 2004 not with the benefit of hindsight

I'm tipping equally dismissive
Now I'm not saying the list is stronger or weaker
I'm just very scathing of bigfooty opinion. Particularly if they have an axe to grind

I do remember both Wallace and eade wo passes over the vacant coaching position saying they thought richmonds and Bulldogs list were a lot more advanced. They also had the opportunity to draft rough and/or buddy

Again. The 2004 draft haul was a big part of the resurgence. Resurgence to a team which pinched a flag early and then went on to a threepeat
Is that the measure? Or just to be realistically be able to win one flag. If that's the case then the recruiting job before hawthorn now is not as great a task as was achieved 2004-2015
I'm tipping in 2004 BF posters were saying "the list is flimsy with the exception of Crawford, Mitchell, Hodge. But they'll probably be better next year as they'll get a compensation pick as well as a high draft pick."

Hawthorn had only 4 wins for the season (so the list was pretty crap) but already has some high draft picks and potential and knew they would get some more that year.

And yes, the description is very close to what Ross Lyon has done, what makes you think it can't happen at Hawthorn if it's already happened at two other clubs who both went within a match of a premiership? All the key people besides Clarkson have moved on.
 
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