Hawthorn - In need of a makeover or genuine threat?????

[kymhodgemansmo]

Hawthorn's "potential tag" hass been based upon a core of talented big men, but the question remains can they really compete with the big clubs when the likes Tony "target hitter" Woods, Daniel "I would like to be a Hitman" Harford and Shane "I am not sure I want to play footy" Crawford are running around the middle.

Is it fair to say that the Hawks lack of midfield potency will continue to hold them back, or will the likes of Glenn " i learned to dispose of the footy from the muso Woodsy" Bowyer and young Johnson, who I rate an exciting talent, push them further up the ladder????????????

Or will their fingernails break????

 

[CJH]

I'm actually with you on this one kym! There is no doubting the ability of their big players - Holland, Croad, Hay, Thompson et. al - but aside from a few class midfielders there doesn't appear much else. I have long held the view that they are overrated and really need to trade up to get a series of early draft picks to develop some more class in their deficiencies.

Another one you missed was Luke McCabe who I once saw against Richmond take posession of the ball between the centre circle and Richmond's Centre Half Foward. He was place under pressure and in a panic kicked towards the boundary line! Found it too, right next to Richmond's goal. At the time, Hawthorn were less than a goal up with only minutes on the clock.

The ensuing play from the boundary throw in saw Richmond kick a goal and win the match. Thank you Mr McCabe!

P.S. Isn't it good to be actually responding to a football related topic!

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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[TheGlove]

CJH, this could also be a reason why Hawthorn were interested in obtaining Daffy. He isn't the best player around but he plays quite well in the midfield, which is where he likes to play and where Hawthorn could do with a little bolstering.

I reckon he would have been a pretty good addition to the Hawks "spine".

TheGlove

 

[Darky]

But Daffy is simply another bomb-merchant. Just runs forward and unloads, couldn't give a flying shit where the ball ends up. The midfield at Hawthorn probably needs an injection of toughness, someone in the mould of Kelly, Stevens, Hocking, etc.

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"Not by speech-making and the decisions of majorities will the questions of the day be settled... but by iron and blood" - Otto von Bismarck 1862

 

[The invisible mullet]

Yep the Hawks have got a million dollars worth of tall men options but their $2 small men do let them down. A couple of class midfielders would see them look like a premiership outfit (except to get them they would have to lose a couple of their tall stars).

[This message has been edited by The invisible mullet (edited 02 February 2001).]

 

[lioness]

I think the Hawks are a real threat, I mean in recent years they have been improving and on their day, look as classy as any of the top teams. I think it's just a question of experience, they have heaps of young players, depends how they cope with finals as to whether the team could go all the way. But I do think they're good enough, yes.

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*the one and only lioness*

 

[McKenna for PM]

I agree that experience is what Hawthorn needs. They've been building for a few years now and managed their first finals year in a while. They've got a new coach and a team full of players with bugger all finals experience.

Crawford is a shining example. He won the Brownlow, so he certainly has the talent, but followed that with a mentally poor year. That happens a lot. This season will be telling.

I reckon all they need is a year or so and they'll be a real threat to the flag.

And thankyou for a footy-related topic!!!!

 

[amazonstud]

I must disagree. The Hawks problems have stemmed around injuries and an inability to get their best side on the filed for the whole season.

Both Joel Smith and Aaron Lord had indifferent seasons last year due to injury. When fit and firing the Hawks will hope they provide that extra goal scoring power and midfield rotation that they missed last year.


Several of the other Hawk onballers/midfield also looked to be carrying injuries.

Will be hoping that Loats has put on some more bulk and is ready for a few games as the second string ruckman.

 

[kymhodgemansmo]

I cannot get close to agreing with you that a midfield incorporating Aaron Lord, Daniel Harford, Shane Crawford, Tony Woods as a tagger can even get on the same page as a Koutoufides, Bradley, Ratten, Franchina (for Woods although I dont rate him), a Misiti, Johnson Brother, Hird and Mercuri or a Woewodin, Yze, Powell and Leoncelli midfield to use a couple of examples.

The mix is not right, hence the amoint of stop gap measures that have been tried eg Rock, Young etc.

They lack toughness, spark, run with ablility and the ability to punish a team on the rebound.

In my humble opinion of course, hence the emergence of the likes of Bowyer and Johnson will be pivotal to any success.

At present Hawthorn's midfield in in the lower half - it doesn't even compare to Cook, Haselby Fletcher & Bell at Freo.

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Originally posted by kymhodgemansmo:
I cannot get close to agreing with you that a midfield incorporating Aaron Lord, Daniel Harford, Shane Crawford, Tony Woods as a tagger can even get on the same page as a Koutoufides, Bradley, Ratten, Franchina (for Woods although I dont rate him), a Misiti, Johnson Brother, Hird and Mercuri or a Woewodin, Yze, Powell and Leoncelli midfield to use a couple of examples.

The mix is not right, hence the amoint of stop gap measures that have been tried eg Rock, Young etc.

They lack toughness, spark, run with ablility and the ability to punish a team on the rebound.

In my humble opinion of course, hence the emergence of the likes of Bowyer and Johnson will be pivotal to any success.

At present Hawthorn's midfield in in the lower half - it doesn't even compare to Cook, Haselby Fletcher & Bell at Freo.

I have a couple of Melbourne mates and they would tell you that prior to last season their midfield wasnt rated at all, Viney retiring was seen to be a huge loss. Hawthorn do have young midfield talent in players such as young Johnston, and to dismiss players like Harford (best season yet last year) and Crawford (based on one bad season) is pretty dangerous. But like Melbourne of last year, they have to prove themselves and until they do i suppose they deserve some sceptisism. However you have to remember Hawthorns list has been amongst the youngest in the competition in the last 3-4 years and the excitement is building. I might remind you of your Crawford and Harford comments some time during the year!

 

[magpie_joffa]

just wait till the first round when collingwood take them to the cleaners
ha ha ha

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I got music runnin'in my brain,Ev'ry song with it's own kind of meaning,Cleanse the soul and wash away the pain,Baptized by the song that you're singing,Canta libre,Canta la vida,siempre conmigo,cante libre, Neil Diamond

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Originally posted by magpie_joffa:
just wait till the first round when collingwood take them to the cleaners
ha ha ha

Joff me mate, you took us to the cleaners last year to. Where did ya finish?

 

[Pessimistic]

Yes guys, I hope you are wrong but even if you are right we have time on our side.

Beyond Crawford (27), Holland (27), Chick (25) and Harford (24) most of Hawthorn's 'potential' is much younger. Croad Hay and Thompson just turned 20. That gives them 3-8 years to get the mix right.
The philosophy is that midfielders can be got much more easily than 'keys'. The 'older hands' such as Graham, Rock, Woods and Rehn will need to be replaced but it is Happening already. We have unloaded Jon Robran and Richard Taylor (both players I had a lot of time for)because youngsters (Rawlings and Johnson) were seen as better replacements.

One 'unloading' I think will be beneficial was that of Ken Judge. A coach is there to improve skills and if we are seen to be poor then the blame stops with the coach.

Recruiting will now be helped by the availability of sons of 70s/80s players start coming through. Greene is one of the first examples of this.

Outside of Essendon, Melbourne I dont think any other team's potential is so rosy. Ironically Melbourne wanted to merge in '96 because their list was so poor.

Perhaps the merger fright put the two clubs into action more than other clubs around. They were also freed up from the weight of supporter expectation for a few years, and they made the right rebuilding choices. Witness the continual failure of Collingwood in the same period, probably the huge expectation there has hampered the team. Remember Hawthorn have won a flag since Collingwood also.

Outside Essendon and perhaps Carlton last year was remarkably even. 10 of the remaining 14 could find themselves as Essendons main challenge this year. Hawthorn could be the team contemplating the huge mental challenge of taking on the bombers (because it could turn out to be mostly mental) as could any of the others.

Perhaps the main deficiancy at hawthorn is Experience, especially GF experience. Only Rock, Rehn and Lord have that. Perhaps the Hawks will have a few more 'gambles' with older players in the near future.

It is 'steady as she goes' as I see it.

But one other point. What does a young team mean ?
If you are older than 30 cast your mind back. What was your top priority at 20? Work ? I don't think so. That is what it means. They say the '80s hawks from a young age all made a commitment to each other to 'go for it' Perhaps the current team will do that soon.

Very good comments mind you. But a couple of stats

In 2000 the Hawks had the most marks by quite a margin. A lot of this was due to the Schwab 'style' but there were ahuge amuont of contested and in the F50 and D50. Sometimes this was total domination ot the opposition, with the midfield breaking even.
In the previous years, when Holland and/or Dunstall were sole targets the midfield workrate (in terms of ball getting) was amongst the best. Granted Salmon, Crawford and Taylor did a lot of this. The hawks might be closer to getting the mis 'right' than even we think.

[This message has been edited by Pessimistic (edited 02 February 2001).]

 

[Pessimistic]

And Joffa, I would not be surprised if Collingwood did take us to the cleaners in Round 1. They are the March champions after all. But I expect us to be there in the end

 

[CJH]

Posted by Pessimistic:
Outside of Essendon, Melbourne I dont think any other team's potential is so rosy. Ironically Melbourne wanted to merge in '96 because their list was so poor.

Pess, I actually rate Richmond's potential this year as being high (putting aside my natural bias for a minute and thinking objectively), not due to any stunning recruitment or player improvement, but due to the resolution of a lot of our injury problems.

Let's face it, we had the worst run of injuries of any team last season but still only just missed the finals. (if only Rogers had taken the shot in the dying minutes against Sydney!)

Now with the likes of Richardson, Kellaway etc all back we should give it a real shake.

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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[Pessimistic]

If only they could kick straight.

 

[dutchy_rules]

Although many of the points are valid about hawthorns midfield from last year... what you have to remember is many of our midfield players had down seasons... players like crawfs, lekkas, taylor etc did not play to their true potential........
Hopefully their bad years are behind them and with the emergence of new talent i can see the hawk midfield having greater depth and being a lot more competitive against the stronger teams..... just take a look at the players who are likely to rotated thru there over the season... crawfs, harford, woods, rock, graham, bowyer, smith, lekkas, graham, johnson, picionne, nichols, tallis and new boy ries...
Most of these players are on the improve and if most of these players play to their potential then things will only look rosy as the ball will continually get pumped down to our tall forwards.
I'm not saying that this list is better than essendons and melbournes etc but over time they may be.... i think we are on the right track... and all we can hope for is continual development..

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by kymhodgemansmo:
I cannot get close to agreing with you that a midfield incorporating Aaron Lord, Daniel Harford, Shane Crawford, Tony Woods as a tagger can even get on the same page as a Koutoufides, Bradley, Ratten, Franchina (for Woods although I dont rate him), a Misiti, Johnson Brother, Hird and Mercuri or a Woewodin, Yze, Powell and Leoncelli midfield to use a couple of examples.

KHM,

You are quoting midfielders in groups of 4. However most teams would run a midfield rotation of 10 or so players per game. This is precisely where Hawthorns problem is. Lack of midfield depth. I don't doubt that Crawford and Harford are good enough, but they would not get close to filling 10 positions of quality midfielders. As Pess suggests, when the 'son's of' start coming through this may be alleviated, but they won't be up to the standard for at least 2 - 3 years and this is the earliest Hawthorn could realistically be expected to challenge.


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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by dutchy_rules:
...just take a look at the players who are likely to rotated thru there over the season... crawfs, harford, woods, rock, graham, bowyer, smith, lekkas, graham, johnson, picionne, nichols, tallis and new boy ries...

Dutchy,

Of the list you provide, there are not many that I would rate - and this comes back to KHM's initial point.

Crawford - Brownlow medallist
Harford - Has the ability, needs to produce more consistently.
Woods - Hack tagger
Rock - Solid servant - Bell was the preferred option at North
Graham - Good player - can play on a wing but is a key postion player
Bowyer - Prospect, but needs much more refinement
Smith - Has the ability, but hasn't shown much confidence since his knee. Crucial season for him.
Lekkas - Good ordinary player. Workmanlike.
Johnson - Potential
Picionne - Let go by Adelaide. Hasn't shown much.
Nichols - Who?
Tallis - More famous for being at the wrong end of Dermie's boot. Been around for a while without having proven himself.
Ries - New kid. Cannot comment.



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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[kymhodgemansmo]

I dont think this "midfield rotation" crap has much to do with things.

It may happen ocassionally, but where are all these ball winners.

The bulk of the work falls to three or four player sand sure ocassionally they are rotated, but it aint that often.

As for Dutchys list of Hawthorn midfielder and including the likes of Tallis, Woods, Crawford, Harford etc as on the improve is in my opinion something that is so far wrong it isn't funny.

Good players dont have one good season and rarely if ever put in bad ones - can you remember Bradley or Ratten or Stevens or Fletcher - having bad seasons.

This debate pushes me further down a road of pessimism for the hawks unless young Johnson steps up.

And as for this father son thing - what a load of crap that is - it makes no difference whether a player's parents played AFL - absolutely ridiculous call.

And if Hawthorn's recruiting has been so good - why is there still a dearth of midfielders.

Name your recruits - Rawlings was there before 1996, Hay was one, Croad another - but the rest - please - Thompson is the only other one but it took him years to get off the rookie list.

And dont give me anything about Harford being a guru - that guy is caught in no mands land - reasonable skill level, but doesnt get enough of it - and tries to throw his weight around but doesn;t know how or when to.

I hope there are some players we don;t know about - or else that in and under ball winning is going to be an awful problem.

 

[Dan26]

I see Hawthorn as a probable finalist. But they simply lack a bit of all-round class. They have got a great bunch of key position players and some promising up and comers. But they don't have the midfield quality and depth that can make them a premiership side.

They're "OK". They just lack a bit of polish. No real threat for the Grand Final, unless they do a "Carlton-1999 fluke job"

 

[Dipper]

Originally posted by Dan24:

They're "OK". They just lack a bit of polish. No real threat for the Grand Final, unless they do a "Carlton-1999 fluke job"

It's just that sort of arrogance that makes me really hope we shove it down Essendons' throats & believe me Dan I'll be there to remind u when we do.
PS Are u still harping back to Carlton in 1999 you need to let it go mate,or as our American cousins would say 'you need closure'

 

[Hawkforce.]

A couple of years ago Tony Woods was the premier "run with" player in the competition.

Rarely got beaten, but never rated because he sacrificed his own game to stop the other teams playmaker. 1996 final against Paul Kelly was a gem.

Cut Buddha Hocking to shreds in the Final last year.

But please... keep on underrating him. It makes his job easier.

CJH,

Crawford, Chick, Harford, Bowyer, Woods, Johnson.

Six midfielders with a blend of youth and proven ability.

Can you show me the Richmond midfield.

 

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kymhodgemansmo:
I cannot get close to agreing with you that a midfield incorporating Aaron Lord, Daniel Harford, Shane Crawford, Tony Woods as a tagger can even get on the same page as a Koutoufides, Bradley, Ratten, Franchina (for Woods although I dont rate him), a Misiti, Johnson Brother, Hird and Mercuri or a Woewodin, Yze, Powell and Leoncelli midfield to use a couple of examples.

The mix is not right, hence the amoint of stop gap measures that have been tried eg Rock, Young etc.

They lack toughness, spark, run with ablility and the ability to punish a team on the rebound.

In my humble opinion of course, hence the emergence of the likes of Bowyer and Johnson will be pivotal to any success.

At present Hawthorn's midfield in in the lower half - it doesn't even compare to Cook, Haselby Fletcher & Bell at Freo.[/B]

For a start, Harford,Chick,Crawford will more than likely be the starting on ballers in most match situations (barring injury) so compare that trio to Cook, Haselby Fletcher & Bell (with Woods as the tagger) and ask yourself if thats not at least an equal match up for those four? You might not rate Woods, all the better for when he shuts another bloke down to less than ten possies for a game. Thats his role, not to be a rebounding defender.

Look kym, there are four team only in the league with outstanding midfields, the Dons,Blues,Dogs and Lions. Everyone else is much of a muchness, its trying to bridge the gap thats the hard part.

The Hawks talls are 2nd to none, in fact i reckon their the best in the league, yet the facts are were still lacking that little 'extra' something. I know that, yet i do feel its being addressed, the recent recruiting HAS been directed at on-ballers, Johnson (imho) just looks the goods already, yet i know hes only a kid. He might take two years to come good. Ries/Greene are both solid runners with good pedigrees and Clarke if he had been available in this years draft would have gone (according to reports) to ten. So four young on-ball players in the wings. Sounds like the clubs realises its needs and has targeted for them to be covered.

The depth isnt as bad as some make out either, when we can have fellows like Rawlings and Graham as 3rd and 4th back up talls (were they would be full backs at some clubs) and Thommo,Rehn,O'Farrell (if he gets on the park!) and Loats for rucking duties. Well as stated, were okay for height. The forward structure i wish Lord (lazy,soft,average skills) a SWIFT return to the side, because aside from the afore mentioned he can crumb very well and we missed that an awful lot in 2000.

So where to from here? Very well placed for an assault on the upper reaches of the ladder imho. Excellent prospects, managed to keep the find of 2000 (D.Chick) and exciting times ahead. Im hopeful that Smith finally comes to fruition, Picioane another ive got alot of time for (cant believe the Crows let him go so cheap) and some of the kids only Hawks fans would know (Nicholls Hazell) come on.

ps, when do we see s Kym take on the Dons/Blues? I think there the only two you havent done yet (aside from the Roos, do we get one on them too?!!)

Cheers.

 

[dutchy_rules]

quote:
:
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Originally

Dutchy,

Of the list you provide, there are not many that I would rate - and this comes back to KHM's initial point.

Crawford - Brownlow medallist
Harford - Has the ability, needs to produce more consistently.
Woods - Hack tagger
Rock - Solid servant - Bell was the preferred option at North
Graham - Good player - can play on a wing but is a key postion player
Bowyer - Prospect, but needs much more refinement
Smith - Has the ability, but hasn't shown much confidence since his knee. Crucial season for him.
Lekkas - Good ordinary player. Workmanlike.
Johnson - Potential
Picionne - Let go by Adelaide. Hasn't shown much.
Nichols - Who?
Tallis - More famous for being at the wrong end of Dermie's boot. Been around for a while without having proven himself.
Ries - New kid. Cannot comment.
:
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Originally

cjh,
have you actually watched any hawthorn games last year..... except maybe the one hawks vs tigers match....
some of your ratings are way off, obviously its always harder to rate other teams as you dont actually get to see them week in week out.... i wasnt talking about the players form last season i was talking about how (in my opinon) they would go in the 2001 season.... its amazing how players can improve over one summer.. especially young players.all they often need is a little confidence...even so your ratings from last years form was way off.......
eg harford last year had what i would consider his best season yet and was very consistent throughout.....
Tallis - probably would be our most improved player from last year, with Rawlings and finished in our top 10 in the b& F.... in fact even hawktalk has an article on him having finally proven himself.....played in 22 games last year.
Picionne - gained confidence as the season progressed and was a good impact player for us.. will have an important role in the next few years. let go by adelaide due to injury more than anything else....
woods - not a hack, is a tagger who statistically had his best season at hawthorn... added a more attacking side to his game under schwab.. even had a few 30 possession games.... not bad for a hack and is rarely beaten by his opponenet...every team needs em..
finally nicho is a player who you should see this season.. played only vfl games last season but has shown enough to suggest that he has a good future... tough and hard at it type who will add bite to the midfield....

anyway thats just my opinion...... and throw in crawford, chick and many of the young guys previously discussed and we should prove to be very competitive...over time who knows you might prove to be correct in your assessment of the hawks... thats the best part about forums like this and topics open to debate.....we shall see over the next couple of seasons.....