News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

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Apr 19, 2006
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FAQs

Are the report and the ABC article the same thing?

No, they are two different things. The HFC report has not been made public. The ABC article was published 2 weeks after the report was handed to the HFC/AFL integrity dept.

Why was the report commissioned?
Hawthorn were acting in response to reports published in the AGE from early in 2022 that Cyril and Shannyn Rioli had issues with cultural and inappropriate behaviour. Hawthorn engaged Phil Egan to review and contact all past First Nations players in a truth telling exercise that would feed its findings back to the HFC board.

Who is Phil Egan?
Egan played 125 games for the Tigers from 1982-1989, and now manages Binmada, a consultancy for Education, Organisation and Community Development. He was also part of the Korin Gamadji Institute as NAIDOC Coordinator, supporting the partnership between the KGI, VicHealth and the Victorian NAIDOC Football and Netball Committee.

Should the Hawthorn report have been given to the accused to rebuke?
No, this was not the purpose of the report. It was simply a gathering of 'truths' from past HFC First Nations players. Once it was given to the HFC board they immediately identified that they were not equipped to handle the level of allegations in the report and directed it to the AFL integrity dept.

Was the report leaked to the ABC's Russell Jackson?
This is unknown, however the AFL have identified that Jackson's article does include allegations that are not in the Egan report.

Did the ABC's Russell Jackson give the accused parties an opportunity to respond to the allegations?
Yes, Jackson is on record as contacting all accused parties via email and phone on Monday the 19th. On Wednesday the 21st the article was published with no responses being lodged.

What happens now?
The AFL will appoint an independent panel to investigate "extremely serious" historical allegations about Hawthorn's treatment of its Indigenous players. The AFL is finalising its own process to investigate the allegations and is seeking to speak to those who shared their experiences with Hawthorn's review. AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan said an external panel of four independent, appropriately qualified people would conduct the investigation for the AFL.

Link to Hawthorn Statement. here.

Link to ABC Sports article. here.
 

phlogiston

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Sep 10, 2019
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Any allegation you hear you have to take the persons prior history in to it. If he’s historically time and again done the wrong thing the reality is in this world that person isn’t going to get the benefit of the doubt. That’s what the investigation is for to find that factual evidence to prove the allegation or disprove it. Here’s a hypothetical if the evidence is proven I’m willing to say they get what they deserve but if it’s not and it’s proven to be false are you willing to admit they were hard done by.

I'm curious: have you ever served on a jury?

I have, once, and it was fascinating. One of the things they do is ensure that the jury knows nothing about the background of the accused (including past criminal history), and to a lesser extent, the witnesses and accuser.

Why do you think that is?
 

Coach Killer

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Jul 24, 2022
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100%? How on earth do you know that? It’s only one side of story for crying out loud. What is wrong with you. Can’t we just wait until the investigation is played out and both sides have their voices heard. Geez
I don’t need to wait for anything they are 100% Guilty.

I don’t require another investigation by the AFL to prove anything. The victims and their families are not changing their stories, the people who have already conducted the investigation are not changing the report and the defendents are running and hiding behind lawyers instead of addressing the claims immediately.

If you want to wait till Prince George becomes King to form your opinion you can. There isn’t anything wrong with me, I stand with the families, the club and the people who conducted the investigation. None of them are lying. If you wish to stand with the accused you can.
 
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Wingnut19

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Apr 1, 2019
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I don’t need to wait for anything they are 100% Guilty.

I don’t require another investigation by the AFL to prove anything. The victims and their families are not changing their stories, the people who have already conducted the investigation are not changing the report and the accusers are running and hiding behind lawyers instead of addressing the claims immediately.

If you want to wait till Prince George becomes King to form your opinion you can. There isn’t anything wrong with me, I stand with the families, the club and the people who conducted the investigation. None of them are lying. If you wish to stand with the accused you can.
Lol. Woweee
It’s prob best you don’t ever apply for a gig in the justice system mate
 
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Coach Killer

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Jul 24, 2022
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I don’t need to wait for anything they are 100% Guilty.

I don’t require another investigation by the AFL to prove anything. The victims and their families are not changing their stories, the people who have already conducted the investigation are not changing the report and the defendants are running and hiding behind lawyers instead of addressing the claims immediately.

If you want to wait till Prince George becomes King to form your opinion you can. There isn’t anything wrong with me, I stand with the families, the club and the people who conducted the investigation. None of them are lying. If you wish to stand with the accused you can.
Apologies I corrected my post.
 

Dipper Here

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Apr 10, 2022
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9, 8 and 7 years ago, on or around this day, Clarko and his highly decorated servants burned out our pleasure receptors. Success and silverware made us relevant.

Today we are entangled in a moral, legal and interpretative complex mess. Our relevance today centres around a question: where to now?

We have been one of the greatest footy clubs of the modern game. But what does our success amount to if we act like a bunch of ”campaigners” and attack each other like campaigners?

Good people and those innocently close to them are hurting on both sides. Maybe this is the time we really need to stand up as a family club.

We don’t have much control over the question of where to now. That will play out despite our ramblings here.

But we do have control over how each of us can act at this low point.
 

Back One Out

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Mar 2, 2015
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Even better is it doesn't matter what the past of the person is, nobody deserves their boss or other senior staff telling them to have an abortion, or cut off their family or partner if they want to keep their job
We don't know if that was the ultimatum. That is the accusers' recollection of events.

Possible, or more likely the players were messing up their footy careers due to off field distractions getting in the way and this is what caused coaches to intervene and ask the player "Do you wish to succeed in the AFL? You're running out of time. You need to focus. You should do this..."

That would still be an overreach by the coaches and an unethical abuse of their power. But it would be a hell of a lot less incriminating than bosses making ultimatums and saying "Do this, or it's your job." A bit more of a grey area, I think, in terms of the AFL giving them life bans.



People really need to chill and stop acting so polarised about choosing sides and who to believe.

Everyone always has their own version of the truth. It's not to deny the players' version of events and and say they're telling outright lies. It's just a fact of life that things happen where one person (or group of people) will come away with their version of what was said, while others will come away with a different version or interpretation of events. Happens all the time... I see it on here... In this thread, even.

There is no Absolute Truth. Just people's interpretation which is real for them, but different maybe from someone else.

I would say let's wait for Clarkson and Fagan to present their version of the events. But I fear we may have gone past that stage with lawyers now involved and instructing people to tread carefully and be careful about making any incriminating admissions. Maybe they'll just deny deny deny...

This will probably end up in the courts, and even then, we'll probably never know the full truth. (A bit like the Essendon drugs scandal, in that respect.)
 
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TylerDurden

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We don't know if that was the ultimatum. That is the accusers' recollection of events.

Possible, or more likely the players were messing up their footy careers due to off field distractions getting in the way and this is what caused coaches to intervene and ask the player "Do you wish to succeed in the AFL? You're running out of time. You need to focus. You should do this..."

That would still be an overreach by the coaches and an unethical abuse of their power. But it would be a hell of lot less incriminating than bosses making demands and saying "Do this, or it's your job." A bit more of a grey area, I think, in terms of the AFL giving them life bans.



People really need to chill and stop acting so polarised about choosing sides and who to believe.

Everyone always has their own version of the truth. It's not to deny the players' version of events and and say they're telling outright lies. It's just a fact of life that things happen where one person (or group of people) will come away with their version of what was said, while others will come away with a different version or interpretation of events. Happens all the time... I see it on here... In this thread, even.

I would say let's wait for Clarkson and Fagan to present their version of the events. But I fear we may have gone past that stage with lawyers now involved and instructing people to tread carefully and be careful about making any incriminating admissions (or maybe they'll just deny deny deny...)

This will probably end up in the courts, and even then we'll probably never know the full truth. (A bit like the Essendon drugs scandal, in that respect.)
100%

Couldn't have said it better.

It's beyond the AFL now. It'll be decided in the courts.
 

Tassie Cryptik

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Jul 31, 2018
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We don't know if that was the ultimatum. That is the accusers' recollection of events.

Possible, or more likely the players were messing up their footy careers due to off field distractions getting in the way and this is what caused coaches to intervene and ask the player "Do you wish to succeed in the AFL? You're running out of time. You need to focus. You should do this..."

That would still be an overreach by the coaches and an unethical abuse of their power. But it would be a hell of a lot less incriminating than bosses making ultimatums and saying "Do this, or it's your job." A bit more of a grey area, I think, in terms of the AFL giving them life bans.



People really need to chill and stop acting so polarised about choosing sides and who to believe.

Everyone always has their own version of the truth. It's not to deny the players' version of events and and say they're telling outright lies. It's just a fact of life that things happen where one person (or group of people) will come away with their version of what was said, while others will come away with a different version or interpretation of events. Happens all the time... I see it on here... In this thread, even.

There is no Absolute Truth. Just people's interpretation which is real for them, but different maybe from someone else.

I would say let's wait for Clarkson and Fagan to present their version of the events. But I fear we may have gone past that stage with lawyers now involved and instructing people to tread carefully and be careful about making any incriminating admissions. Maybe they'll just deny deny deny...

This will probably end up in the courts, and even then, we'll probably never know the full truth. (A bit like the Essendon drugs scandal, in that respect.)
The black people lie.
Yep.
 

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Titch3Votes0MooreAA

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The black people lie.
Yep.
With all due respect, claiming that everyone is racist for wanting to hear the whole story won't help your argument. I regret to say that I believe it to be true, but we must learn the complete story and what happened. That's if anything occurred at all.
 

matey

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Burgs just spoke on ch7 and he has pretty much been consistent to what’s been said by other ex players of the club during the period in question. He was in shock when he first heard of the allegations from the report. He heard nothing about it while playing and feels really sorry for the players and family involved and doesn’t want to make any comments on the run until a full investigation is conducted/completed before making his judgement and talking about it further as he has been getting a lot of questions over the last week.
 

Tassie Cryptik

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Jul 31, 2018
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With all due respect, claiming that everyone is racist for wanting to hear the whole story won't help your argument. I regret to say that I believe it to be true, but we must learn the complete story and what happened. That's if anything occurred at all.
With all due respect not believing 3 similar and damning allegations by the marginalised leaves you open to claims of racism and misogyny.
 

Back One Out

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Mar 2, 2015
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You said you don't believe them.
What more can you say to pull back from that?
I made a lengthy post about "the truth" always being a subjective thing, especially when it comes to difficult, emotionally-charged conversations between people.

An employee might swear blind the boss gave him the ultimatum, "Do this, or it's your job". That's his honest memory of the events.

Off the record, the boss might say "Ian was all messed up, going nowhere fast with his footy, missing training sessions. He wasn't taking responsibility, kept making excuses and blaming his personal problems at home. So I told him he needed to focus more on his footy if he wished to succeed. I only suggested to him that he should think about leaving his girlfriend and paying for her abortion. I was just giving him some fatherly advice. But I never forced anyone into doing that. I told him to think about it. It was his decision."

^^
This is not necessarily what I believe occurred. Just me presenting a hypothetical version of what the coach might say. I have no way of knowing how Clarkson will respond to that accusation. It still wouldn't make everything right either, nor mean that it wasn't an abuse of his power & authority.



My point is... what exactly is the "truth" if player & coach have two different subjective recollections about what was said and how things went down?

If Clarkson did exactly what I wrote above, it could still be construed 100% by the footballer as him making an ultimatum - do this, or it's your job - even though the coach might swear blind that it was never his intention and he was only "trying to help" Ian navigate his way through various issues and succeed in life.

Or perhaps Clarkson may have thought he was only offering "advice" and trying to help, but the actual words which came out of his mouth were "You can't let this messy relationship continue, son. The way things are going, you're going to get delisted. You need to get rid of her and pay for her abortion."

^^These words coming from the coach could only be interpreted by the footballer as an ultimatum "do this, or it's your job", even though the coach might subjectively remember the conversation differently.
 

Crankyhawk

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Were indigenous players singled out for this kind of treatment? There's a big difference between this kind of thing happening across the player list, and the club treating indigenous players differently.
Difficult to answer as the report only asked the indigenous players (those were the terms) a separate one should be done canvassing all players imo
 

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