News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Gralin]

Well if they are telling the truth you can’t go back in time. I’m not saying they must be named or don’t stay anonymous I’m saying you can’t assume they are telling the truth you have to prove it. You can’t take both sides at face value that’s wrong. That’s why it’s called an investigation. The only bullshit argument is yours. You want to hang draw and quarter the people who’ve been accused and you don’t even know A. if the allegations are true B. Who they are, so we don’t even know the peoples credibility. And C. That 2 of the people who are being accused ( I don’t know much about Burt) have never had any issues with indigenous players if anything it’s been impeccable. Clarkson relationship with various indigenous players has been spot on Burgoyne wingard he personally was responsible for bringing them over to hawthorn. He’s always had a good relationship with rioli until Kennett opened his big mouth. Again I’m not saying that the 3 players are lying I’m saying treat both sides the way because either could be lying.

Remember when we had someone who'd been around the club for decades turn out to be a pedo and nobody knew?

Public image, actions with one person, none of it means the accusations are false.

This idea that people make false accusations is great for abusers, they use it all the time to get away with it.

DARVO is a thing, look it up

 

[Gralin]

No you did that they could have had a chckered past thing which is the bad victim narrative

No I’m not, I’m saying let the investigation find the truth. They could be spot on 100% telling the truth. If they are the investigation is the best chance at proving it. I’m not saying that nothing wrongs been done because I don’t know. I believe everyone has the right to defend themselves. The only one with a bias here is you.

 

[Gohawthorn13]

A group of people who’ve now had a staff member of the time coroberate some of what they’ve said?

Anything is possible, sure, but when you’re playing devil’s advocate to a conspiracy level now - why is this where your head is going?

I don’t want the accusations to be true for multiple reasons - but I’m not going to do mental gymnastics to convince myself they’re not, I’ll await the further enquires.

What’s been corroborated. What’s the context of how things went down. Again I’m waiting till the investigation is finished. If they’ve done the wrong thing then they should get the punishment required. I’m not doing mental gymnastics they could be guilty but I don’t know that yet.

 

[Gralin]

What’s been corroborated. What’s the context of how things went down. Again I’m waiting till the investigation is finished. If they’ve done the wrong thing then they should get the punishment required. I’m not doing mental gymnastics they could be guilty but I don’t know that yet.

No you're just going to suggest they lied and are dodgy and ruined the reputations of innocent men

 

[Gohawthorn13]

No you did that they could have had a chckered past thing which is the bad victim narrative

Any allegation you hear you have to take the persons prior history in to it. If he’s historically time and again done the wrong thing the reality is in this world that person isn’t going to get the benefit of the doubt. That’s what the investigation is for to find that factual evidence to prove the allegation or disprove it. Here’s a hypothetical if the evidence is proven I’m willing to say they get what they deserve but if it’s not and it’s proven to be false are you willing to admit they were hard done by.

 

[Gralin]

Any allegation you hear you have to take the persons prior history in to it. If he’s historically time and again done the wrong thing the reality is in this world that person isn’t going to get the benefit of the doubt. That’s what the investigation is for to find that factual evidence to prove the allegation or disprove it. Here’s a hypothetical if the evidence is proven I’m willing to say they get what they deserve but if it’s not and it’s proven to be false are you willing to admit they were hard done by.

Keep digging campaigner

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Any allegation you hear you have to take the persons prior history in to it. If he’s historically time and again done the wrong thing the reality is in this world that person isn’t going to get the benefit of the doubt. That’s what the investigation is for to find that factual evidence to prove the allegation or disprove it. Here’s a hypothetical if the evidence is proven I’m willing to say they get what they deserve but if it’s not and it’s proven to be false are you willing to admit they were hard done by.

You don’t even know that the particular player you’re alluding to is one of the 3 players interviewed yet you’re using his reputation to drag down all the accusations. You don’t get how that makes it look like you have only one motivation in your ‘just asking questions’ crusade?

 

[Gohawthorn13]

No you're just going to suggest they lied and are dodgy and ruined the reputations of innocent men

No I’m saying you don’t know enough to make a honest fair judgement so therefore don’t pick a side until you know the facts. How hard is that to understand. Any situation there’s three versions the accuser the defender and the third one is the truth. I’m also not saying they are dodgy and lied Or that they are guilty because although both are possible I don’t know either way. Im not picking a side I’m saying your view could be correct but you can’t know that yet.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

No I’m saying you don’t know enough to make a honest fair judgement so therefore don’t pick a side until you know the facts. How hard is that to understand. Any situation there’s three versions the accuser the defender and the third one is the truth. I’m also not saying they are dodgy and lied Or that they are guilty because although both are possible I don’t know either way. Im not picking a side I’m saying your view could be correct but you can’t know that yet.

You’ve twice invoked a particular player to sully the accusers broadly - yes you absolutely have picked a side you’re just not honest enough to post it.

 

[Gohawthorn13]

You don’t even know that the particular player you’re alluding to is one of the 3 players interviewed yet you’re using his reputation to drag down all the accusations. You don’t get how that makes it look like you have only one motivation in your ‘just asking questions’ crusade?

No I’m using it as an example to show that there are so many unknowns making a judgement now is wrong. They could be guilty they could be innocent. But with the information I’ve read and heard I can’t honestly say one way or the other. We could be here in 2 months saying there guilty. I’m saying let’s wait and see.

 

[Gohawthorn13]

Keep digging campaigner

I’m not digging. Your mentality is what’s wrong with the world. The only campaigner is you. I’m not saying your wrong. I’m saying that you could be right but right now with what we know you can’t act like you know they’re guilty but your too biased and stubborn to acknowledge that whether it’s a 1% chance or a 50% chance that it’s at least possible your wrong. Your probably one of those people ( and by people I mean your mentality because any person of any race can have this mentality) where if someone dare questions anything you say they must be racist or prejudice of some sort.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

No I’m using it as an example to show that there are so many unknowns making a judgement now is wrong. They could be guilty they could be innocent. But with the information I’ve read and heard I can’t honestly say one way or the other. We could be here in 2 months saying there guilty. I’m saying let’s wait and see.

I’m also keen for the enquiry to play out - but I haven’t been posting on here with ‘oh but one of the accusers could have a dodgy past, really makes you think hmm?’. You’re seeking to discredit only one side here.

 

[Gohawthorn13]

I’m also keen for the enquiry to play out - but I haven’t been posting on here with ‘oh but one of the accusers could have a dodgy past, really makes you think hmm?’. You’re seeking to discredit only one side here.

No I was using it as an example of a potential unknown to people who act like they know the truth. He may not be one of the three. That wasn’t the point. The point is nobody outside of the people involved at this stage can honestly say who’s telling the truth but instead of getting my point your worrying about semantics. I’m not their lawyers. I’m not defending anyone. If they’re guilty they’re guilty and will get dealt with accordingly.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

No I was using it as an example of a potential unknown to people who act like they know the truth. He may not be one of the three. That wasn’t the point. The point is nobody outside of the people involved at this stage can honestly say who’s telling the truth but instead of getting my point your worrying about semantics. I’m not their lawyers. I’m not defending anyone. If they’re guilty they’re guilty and will get dealt with accordingly.

So why insinuate that all 3 could be fabricating things based off the possibility that one of them might be someone with a checkered past? How would that in any way sully the reputation of the other two people interviewed, and their families? It’s a weird long bow to be drawing.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Your life damage argument only applies if the accusations are true. Whereas whether they are or aren’t true their reputations have taken a hit and that’s the point your not getting. As long as it’s an if you can’t use that argument.

Oh I get it.

But I would rather risk the reputation hit of someone who can recover easily for it
Than risk not believing someone who is in a really vulnerable state trying to tell of horrible things that have happened.

If someone can afford the hit it's the guys that earn several hundred thousands of dollars per year and will continue to do so for quite a while.

So true or untrue I hold the same position.

 

[Gralin]

You don’t even know that the particular player you’re alluding to is one of the 3 players interviewed yet you’re using his reputation to drag down all the accusations. You don’t get how that makes it look like you have only one motivation in your ‘just asking questions’ crusade?

Even better is it doesn't matter what the past of the person is, nobody deserves their boss or other senior staff telling them to have an abortion, or cut off their family or partner if they want to keep their job

No I’m saying you don’t know enough to make a honest fair judgement so therefore don’t pick a side until you know the facts. How hard is that to understand. Any situation there’s three versions the accuser the defender and the third one is the truth. I’m also not saying they are dodgy and lied Or that they are guilty because although both are possible I don’t know either way. Im not picking a side I’m saying your view could be correct but you can’t know that yet.

History tells me that the vast majority of what has been alleged will actually be true and it will be brushed off by attacking the character of the people without power in the situation

They won't be "good" victims, it will be justified, excused or brushed off as being from a not trustworthy source.

You've absolutely picked a side buddy your just too much of a coward to own it.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It’s always interesting to me that the same posters who got a threadban from the Cyril thread earlier this year because they spent half their time suggesting that there was nothing to the allegations are now doubling down in this one.

It’s almost like there’s a pattern of behavior.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Maybe I'm slow, but , some posters are suggesting to hear both sides of the story, yeah?, right, that's what we're waiting for, so should you/s!
No need to get defensive about the accused " before" hearing the whole story.

 

[Coach Killer]

Of course the victims are telling the truth. All this bullshit about waiting for an AFL investigations and let’s hear the other side rubbish. There has already been an investigation , the club commissioned one, did they lie as well? Are the victims going to change their story? the story and investigation is already in the public domain.

Now you’ve got Fagen and Clarkson lawyering up and trying to concoct some bullshit defence. Oh please give it a rest. It’s in the public and media you flogs. Come out and make your position known publicly, instead they both came out with some bullshit prepared media release - turn it up. Anyone who is innocent of the allegations doesn’t require a 2 month AFL investigation and lawyers to tell their story. An innocent person would be on the front foot slamming the allegations and demanding the accusers front up to the media immediately on the same day and giving them a dressing down for all to see. Any innocent person accused of those vulgar horrendous acts would rip shreds and humiliate the accusers in public and in the media with detail and irrefutable evidence within the first 20 minutes of it been released to the media. All this bullshit stepping down so the AFL can conduct an investigation, what a load of rubbish. Are Clarko and Fagen not aware of the allegations? They weren’t their? Are they waiting for the AFL to investigate the claims and then present their version of events? Oh please, turn it up.

Innocent my ass, the report is 100% spot on.

 

[H00t]

“Perfect” victims don’t exist. They are a concept seen only in tv and used to protect those who do the wrong thing.

False reports are so very rare. I’d imagine especially ones done in a confidential review.

There’s not a 50-50 chance this occurred. History tells us this likely happened.

What it also tells us is how hard getting justice is.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

What it also tells us is Australia has a deep seated racism problem, just look at some of the above posts.
Disgusting.
It's how pedos get away with it too.
Blame the victim.
Denigrate the victim.
Silence the victim.

 

[Hawk Hawkins]

Sure we understand what you are saying but can you sack someone from there job without evidence either by a drug test or testing the substance .

I am not a lawyer but interested in someone’s knowledge about how far you can go as the employer before possibly facing a lawsuit yourself .

That’s what the courts are for…and they don’t take kindly to cookers wasting their time.

 

[Wingnut19]

I’m not digging. Your mentality is what’s wrong with the world. The only campaigner is you. I’m not saying your wrong. I’m saying that you could be right but right now with what we know you can’t act like you know they’re guilty but your too biased and stubborn to acknowledge that whether it’s a 1% chance or a 50% chance that it’s at least possible your wrong. Your probably one of those people ( and by people I mean your mentality because any person of any race can have this mentality) where if someone dare questions anything you say they must be racist or prejudice of some sort.

Bang on.

 

[Wingnut19]

Of course the victims are telling the truth. All this bullshit about waiting for an AFL investigations and let’s hear the other side rubbish. There has already been an investigation , the club commissioned one, did they lie as well? Are the victims going to change their story? the story and investigation is already in the public domain.

Now you’ve got Fagen and Clarkson lawyering up and trying to concoct some bullshit defence. Oh please give it a rest. It’s in the public and media you flogs. Come out and make your position known publicly, instead they both came out with some bullshit prepared media release - turn it up. Anyone who is innocent of the allegations doesn’t require a 2 month AFL investigation and lawyers to tell their story. An innocent person would be on the front foot slamming the allegations and demanding the accusers front up to the media immediately on the same day and giving them a dressing down for all to see. Any innocent person accused of those vulgar horrendous acts would rip shreds and humiliate the accusers in public and in the media with detail and irrefutable evidence within the first 20 minutes of it been released to the media. All this bullshit stepping down so the AFL can conduct an investigation, what a load of rubbish. Are Clarko and Fagen not aware of the allegations? They weren’t their? Are they waiting for the AFL to investigate the claims and then present their version of events? Oh please, turn it up.

Innocent my ass, the report is 100% spot on.

100%? How on earth do you know that? It’s only one side of story for crying out loud. What is wrong with you. Can’t we just wait until the investigation is played out and both sides have their voices heard. Geez

 

[phlogiston]

Any allegation you hear you have to take the persons prior history in to it. If he’s historically time and again done the wrong thing the reality is in this world that person isn’t going to get the benefit of the doubt. That’s what the investigation is for to find that factual evidence to prove the allegation or disprove it. Here’s a hypothetical if the evidence is proven I’m willing to say they get what they deserve but if it’s not and it’s proven to be false are you willing to admit they were hard done by.

I'm curious: have you ever served on a jury?

I have, once, and it was fascinating. One of the things they do is ensure that the jury knows nothing about the background of the accused (including past criminal history), and to a lesser extent, the witnesses and accuser.

Why do you think that is?