NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:



Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf
 
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sr36

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What PR campaign mate? I love this site, have made lots of friends here, but the idea what we're blethering on about here is going to have any impact on how this plays out is a bit silly.

The reality is the criticisms North supporters have had about how this has been handled have been largely vindicated as it has played out.

And the inescapable fact is that if the forced abortions claim cannot be stood up beyond two anonymous people having made it and refusing to back it up, let alone if it is disproven in the investigation, then there is going to be a serious reckoning for those who publicised that claim.
How has it been vindicated?

There won't be a reckoning. The coaches are really unlikely to take it to court.
 

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Chief

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Starts just after 33:00

I am hearing from that interview that it was a difficult choice to participate in the initial review.

That interview is all about the AFL investigation.

The cultural safety of the Egan/Binmada review is mentioned in passing with an offhand "it didn't turn out to be that safe either". I can see what he means given what happened after it was leaked and that her and her partner's identity have been passed around various gossip channels - I wouldn't be surprised if the spread of this information originated within the North Melbourne organisation. That's obviously what that was about. Obviously.

The interview is about the AFL investigation. She doesn't want to go through an adversarial process that doesn't benefit her. Any of the NM/AFL suits would do exactly the same in her situation and they are lying if they say otherwise. No upside, all downside given the behaviour of the AFL.

It's a perfectly rational decision to say you have my statement, I won't be showing up to your internal review and I have given my reasons for this.

Trying to make it all about the initial Hawthorn review is just North supporters chipping in to the PR campaign.

This interview doesn't change my belief in that regard.


Also I recall now that at the time people panned the lawyer's performance. This looks like more PR. I'm not sure what the issue was with the lawyer's delivery apart from too many "umm"s. He's not an entertainer. He seems to have a sound grasp of the law and the facts, with reasoned arguments and claims.
 

Chief

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And the inescapable fact is that if the forced abortions claim cannot be stood up beyond two anonymous people having made it and refusing to back it up, let alone if it is disproven in the investigation, then there is going to be a serious reckoning for those who publicised that claim.
a) They aren't anonymous. People know who they are.

b) Won't back it up? They made their statements when asked. Why do they need to back anything up under an adversarial process that doesn't benefit them, held by a body that ignored their concerns over the process, and that neither is a part of now, and one was never a part of?

The reality is the criticisms North supporters have had about how this has been handled have been largely vindicated as it has played out.
At least that is what North and their supporters want people to believe.
 

sr36

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Starts just after 33:00

I am hearing from that interview that it was a difficult choice to participate in the initial review.

That interview is all about the AFL investigation.

The cultural safety of the Egan/Binmada review is mentioned in passing with an offhand "it didn't turn out to be that safe either". I can see what he means given what happened after it was leaked and that her and her partner's identity have been passed around various gossip channels - I wouldn't be surprised if the spread of this information originated within the North Melbourne organisation. That's obviously what that was about. Obviously.

The interview is about the AFL investigation. She doesn't want to go through an adversarial process that doesn't benefit her. Any of the NM/AFL suits would do exactly the same in her situation and they are lying if they say otherwise. No upside, all downside given the behaviour of the AFL.

It's a perfectly rational decision to say you have my statement, I won't be showing up to your internal review and I have given my reasons for this.

Trying to make it all about the initial Hawthorn review is just North supporters chipping in to the PR campaign.

This interview doesn't change my belief in that regard.


Also I recall now that at the time people panned the lawyer's performance. This looks like more PR. I'm not sure what the issue was with the lawyer's delivery apart from too many "umm"s. He's not an entertainer. He seems to have a sound grasp of the law and the facts, with reasoned arguments and claims.
Yeah. Attacking the review based on that and carrying on about it having declared culturally unsafe by Amy is ridiculous.
 

Laphroaig

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Is Amy feeling unsafe because people are attacking her credibility and story of her experience in defense of Clarkson, after she only agreed to speak on terms of confidential anonymity, but she's now been thrust in to an AFL tabled panel, where she'll lose that anonymity (at least partially) and be exposed to something beyond simply being asked to tell her story?

Oh FFS.

This is a person who chose to repeat allegations made in a relatively private setting to a journalist, presumably with full knowledge that the story would fill back pages.

Just a tiny bit late to be using the can't go through it all again card.
 

Laphroaig

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Robbie was a victim, but you're right the balance between whether that was at the hands of his father versus racism within the VFL is likely distorted by Jackson. However, there's also no doubt that the racism in the VFL was outrageous and did play a part.

These things are complicated, but I have found over time that when somebody claims victim status it is enlightening to ask "How many other people endured what you did, and how did they behave?"

There were plenty of aboriginal players running around at that time. My memory of them is that they were almost all "pure footballers". No malice, no filth, no spite. And yet all of them suffered racial belittlement. Some from their own supporters, and even team mates.

Only one of them became the most feared player in the game.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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The cultural safety of the Egan/Binmada review is mentioned in passing with an offhand "it didn't turn out to be that safe either". I can see what he means given what happened after it was leaked and that her and her partner's identity have been passed around various gossip channels - I wouldn't be surprised if the spread of this information originated within the North Melbourne organisation. That's obviously what that was about. Obviously.

Jeezo, it isn't the top line of the interview, but he does say it, and it is quite a telling revelation ... that the report is now considered by unsafe by some of those who took part.

Egan leaked it to Jackson, who then wrote a hamfisted piece that created a huge storm, no regard for the welfare of his source.

Intelligent people, which you are, change their mind as new information comes to light. If new credible information proving Clarkson did demand abortions comes to light, I'll be demanding he leave instantly.

But I'm fascinated that so many folks act like it is still the day Jackson's article dropped, as if time froze at that moment.

New information keeps coming to light, and its changing the situation.

Right now its looking more and more likely that Retraction Jackson's story simply doesn't stand up.
 

sr36

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These things are complicated, but I have found over time that when somebody claims victim status it is enlightening to ask "How many other people endured what you did, and how did they behave?"

There were plenty of aboriginal players running around at that time. My memory of them is that they were almost all "pure footballers". No malice, no filth, no spite. And yet all of them suffered racial belittlement. Some from their own supporters, and even team mates.

Only one of them became the most feared player in the game.

I'm not sure what your point is. Muir's responses were more violent? Google Jimmy Krakouer punch Shane Kerrison or Chris Lewis report if you want to see other Aboriginal players responding with violence to racial abuse.
 

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SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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a) They aren't anonymous. People know who they are.

b) Won't back it up? They made their statements when asked. Why do they need to back anything up under an adversarial process that doesn't benefit them, held by a body that ignored their concerns over the process, and that neither is a part of now, and one was never a part of?

a) They are anonymous in terms of the allegations they've made. They won't put their names to them. That's just how it works.

b) If they want the action they say do, they need to back them up.

At least that is what North and their supporters want people to believe.

Nah, it's just the facts bruv innit. The main source of the story has walked away, Jackson embarrassed himself with Twitter tirades he had to apologise for.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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Oh FFS.

This is a person who chose to repeat allegations made in a relatively private setting to a journalist, presumably with full knowledge that the story would fill back pages.

Just a tiny bit late to be using the can't go through it all again card.

And this is where Retraction Jackson's credibility is on the line.

He either didn't prepare her fully for what talking to him would entail, or he was happy just to use her and bugger the consequences.

Either way, he's done her no favours.
 

sr36

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Jeezo, it isn't the top line of the interview, but he does say it, and it is quite a telling revelation ... that the report is now considered by unsafe by some of those who took part.

Egan leaked it to Jackson, who then wrote a hamfisted piece that created a huge storm, no regard for the welfare of his source.

Intelligent people, which you are, change their mind as new information comes to light. If new credible information proving Clarkson did demand abortions comes to light, I'll be demanding he leave instantly.

But I'm fascinated that so many folks act like it is still the day Jackson's article dropped, as if time froze at that moment.

New information keeps coming to light, and its changing the situation.

Right now its looking more and more likely that Retraction Jackson's story simply doesn't stand up.
The reference to a lack of safety is in relation to anonymity. How does your incredible concern for this sit with the fact that you've clearly gone to the effort of finding out who the players are and have dropped several hints in this thread...

What's the new information that has come to light about the accusations? A bit of rumour being pmed?

We still sit where we did. Detailed accusations. And refuting claims of no wrongdoing with suggestions of supporting context.
 

ferball

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Oh FFS.

This is a person who chose to repeat allegations made in a relatively private setting to a journalist, presumably with full knowledge that the story would fill back pages.

Just a tiny bit late to be using the can't go through it all again card.
Why do you presume this?
 

sr36

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If any new credible information proving Clarkson did demand abortions comes to light, I'll be demanding he leave instantly.
This is the new little trick. Make it entirely about the abortion claim and whether that is unproven in the Inquiry. Dismissing all other claims, knowing full well the abortion claimants are unlikely to participate in the Inquiry, watch that one become the most dominant idea - it's only the abortion that's all that matters and if that's unproven ... (which it will be due to non-participation)...
 
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Albert Collier

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You're not improving at all.

Try harder.

Intrigued why you added an ‘er’ to your name when you signed the bottom of your post. Look on the bright side, your only way is up because you certainly can’t get any worse. You make sweeping statements about Robert Muir and racism yet you have no idea of what he truly went through. The racism he copped in football was horrendous.
 

mcnulty

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Intrigued why you added an ‘er’ to your name when you signed the bottom of your post. Look on the bright side, your only way is up because you certainly can’t get any worse. You make sweeping statements about Robert Muir and racism yet you have no idea of what he truly went through. The racism he copped in football was horrendous.
Both can surely be true. He absolutely copped appalling racism but so did many aboriginal players who didn’t behave the way Muir did. There were clearly other factors at play.

It’s a bit paternalistic (dare I say racist) to deny agency this way.
 
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SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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Both can surely be true. He absolutely copped appalling racism but so did many aboriginal players who didn’t behave the way Muir did. It’s a bit paternalistic (dare I say racist) to deny agency this way.

Jim Krakouer copped many many suspensions, his brother Phillip only one from memory.

If you read the legendary Brother Boys by Sean Gorman, it gives context as to why one brother was "violent" and the other far less so despite both experiencing the same horrific racism.
 

Laphroaig

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I'm not sure what your point is. Muir's responses were more violent? Google Jimmy Krakouer punch Shane Kerrison or Chris Lewis report if you want to see other Aboriginal players responding with violence to racial abuse.
I prefer to take counsel from my recollection of the events in preference to Google. So I am not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that robert Muir was not the most feared player in the game to support the preconception that he was an innocent victim?
 

Albert Collier

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Both can surely be true. He absolutely copped appalling racism but so did many aboriginal players who didn’t behave the way Muir did. There were clearly other factors at play.

It’s a bit paternalistic (dare I say racist) to deny agency this way.

And you know Robert’s Dad, the life he had, the racism he copped, the torment he experienced. That is what you do not get with Aboriginal people that racism is a circle that just keeps repeating. What were the factors for Roberts Dad? Know the whole story
 

sr36

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I prefer to take counsel from my recollection of the events in preference to Google. So I am not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that robert Muir was not the most feared player in the game to support the preconception that he was an innocent victim?
I don't get it. You started off by suggesting that he was a victim of his father's abuse and that was the cause of his violence and not the VFL racism - probably a fair bit of truth in that playing a massive part, and now you're portraying him as a Hollywood villain without having had anything other than his inate violent urges that drove him. What are you on about?
 
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