NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[The Warlord]

Literally no one has played down the seriousness of the allegations

Or that I believe Amy is being honest in what she told Egan and Jackson. I believe 100 per cent that's the version of events Ian gave her.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Fair point, but it is also a bit more nuanced.

Egan actually places himself in the report as a key player.

He says people spoke to him due to the "profile and respect" he has in the community.

He talks about using yarning where the researcher is an active participant in driving the discussion.

You're framing this as a very clean and legalistic procedure, that you'd get had Hawthorn hired a big 4 firm to do it.

It wasn't that at all, it was a very different process. Egan says it was culturally safe and that's how he got revelations that some 29 year old working for KPMG probably wouldn't.

But Amy's lawyer also says she now has concerns about its cultural safety.

It's hugely nuanced and complex.

I’m not framing it as anything. It’s a report, made at the request of the HFC.

Bolded- probably why they hired him?

 

[Wosh]

Stop fighting if you want to stay here and just discuss the topic. You can do that without trolling and name calling…apparently.








Thanks

 

[The Warlord]

I’m not framing it as anything. It’s a report, made at the request of the HFC.

Bolded- probably why they hired him?

Given he's related to one of the most important people in the whole thing, Leon Egan, that they hired him at all is mind boggling.

But given his involvement in the interviewing, its not just a report made at the request of the HFC per se, it is something else altogether.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Given he's related to one of the most important people in the whole thing, Leon Egan, that they hired him at all is mind boggling.

But given his involvement in the interviewing, its not just a report made at the request of the HFC per se, it is something else altogether.

1st para - not really.

2nd - it really is just a report that the HFC commissioned. That you want it to be something more doesn’t make it so.

 

[The Warlord]

1st para - not really.

2nd - it really is just a report that the HFC commissioned. That you want it to be something more doesn’t make it so.

You don't think that's a conflict of interest?

 

[Jim Prideaux]

You don't think that's a conflict of interest?

Nope, not for what the report was set up for. I think it gives aggrieved parties something to complain about, sure.

But for the context of the original report, not at all.

 

[Laphroaig]

Exactly.

I’ve definitely questioned the credibility of the Jackson article because quite frankly it’s highly questionable.

What you are told and how you tell it are amazingly versatile things.

Let us not forget that this is the same journalist that reported as an unquestionable fact that Robert Muir was driven to violence by being abused and spat on in the race at Vic Park.

Like every other non Collingwood player that ever played there.

Just forget about the fact that his violent alcoholic father beat the piss out of him on a daily basis and provided him with permanent internal injuries; that had nothing at all with him becoming the most feared footballer ever to play the the game, and a violent alcoholic thug afterwards - who by his own admission was lucky to not end up in jail.

NO NO NO. Muir became a thug because of racism. There can be no other possible cause.

 

[South of the Yarra]

What you are told and how you tell it are amazingly versatile things.

Let us not forget that this is the same journalist that reported as an unquestionable fact that Robert Muir was driven to violence by being abused and spat on in the race at Vic Park.

Like every other non Collingwood player that ever played there.

Just forget about the fact that his violent alcoholic father beat the piss out of him on a daily basis and provided him with permanent internal injuries; that had nothing at all with him becoming the most feared footballer ever to play the the game, and a violent alcoholic thug afterwards - who by his own admission was lucky to not end up in jail.

NO NO NO. Muir became a thug because of racism. There can be no other possible cause.

You seriously have no idea.

 

[sr36]

It's hugely nuanced and complex.

It's not nuanced. Players either felt like they were being coerced to leave their partners with kids and/or fetuses, or they didn't feel like that.

The if they did feel like that, it's either a cultural misunderstanding or blatant coercion.

 

[Chief]

Amy's lawyer also says she now has concerns about its cultural safety.

What are those concerns?

 

[Laphroaig]

You seriously have no idea.

Superb analysis. Good job

 

[the big lebowski]

What are those concerns?

Her lawyer stated on radio that the hawthorn review did not turn out to be as culturally safe as she was lead to believe it would

 

[The Warlord]

What are those concerns?

He didn't go into detail.

Why are you shooting the messenger? Why can't you just accept what Amy says as fact?

 

[The Warlord]

What you are told and how you tell it are amazingly versatile things.

Let us not forget that this is the same journalist that reported as an unquestionable fact that Robert Muir was driven to violence by being abused and spat on in the race at Vic Park.

Like every other non Collingwood player that ever played there.

Just forget about the fact that his violent alcoholic father beat the piss out of him on a daily basis and provided him with permanent internal injuries; that had nothing at all with him becoming the most feared footballer ever to play the the game, and a violent alcoholic thug afterwards - who by his own admission was lucky to not end up in jail.

NO NO NO. Muir became a thug because of racism. There can be no other possible cause.

Jackson covered in detail the direct racism from umpires that Muir experienced in Ballarat among many other things.

That kind of historical feature he's brilliant at.

Poor post.

 

[Chief]

He didn't go into detail.

Why are you shooting the messenger? Why can't you just accept what Amy says as fact?

Huh?

 

[Laphroaig]

Jackson covered in detail the direct racism from umpires that Muir experienced in Ballarat among many other things.

That kind of historical feature he's brilliant at.

Poor post.

I was a kid at the footy in Ballarat at that time. Also a young adult at the footy in Melbourne after that, often attending St Kilda games with a mate who supported them. How about you?

It certainly takes a perverse talent to be able to heap so much extra mayo on a "reinterpretation" of events by the central figure in those events that the original can barely even be seen anymore, but it aint brilliant.

This brilliant article not only managed to brush aside a childhood spent in extreme violence as a likely primary cause to being an out of control perpetrator of violence, it also managed to inform us that Muir was known as Mad Dog because he ran around a lot.

As someone who was there, I can inform you that it was not the running around. It was the stopping for long enough to belt someone before running off to the next one and belting them.

I can also inform you that the stuff that Muir got caught for, either on camera or by the umps, was the tip of the iceberg. He was the nastiest player in the nastiest team the game has ever seen. Rebadging him as a victim is self serving rubbish.

 

[sr36]

I was a kid at the footy in Ballarat at that time. Also a young adult at the footy in Melbourne after that, often attending St Kilda games with a mate who supported them. How about you?

It certainly takes a perverse talent to be able to heap so much extra mayo on a "reinterpretation" of events by the central figure in those events that the original can barely even be seen anymore, but it aint brilliant.

This brilliant article not only managed to brush aside a childhood spent in extreme violence as a likely primary cause to being an out of control perpetrator of violence, it also managed to inform us that Muir was known as Mad Dog because he ran around a lot.

As someone who was there, I can inform you that it was not the running around. It was the stopping for long enough to belt someone before running off to the next one and belting them.

I can also inform you that the stuff that Muir got caught for, either on camera or by the umps, was the tip of the iceberg. He was the nastiest player in the nastiest team the game has ever seen. Rebadging him as a victim is self serving rubbish.

Robbie was a victim, but you're right the balance between whether that was at the hands of his father versus racism within the VFL is likely distorted by Jackson. However, there's also no doubt that the racism in the VFL was outrageous and did play a part.

 

[owen87]

Huh?

I believe he's trying to compare Amy's lawyer saying 'Amy has concerns' with Jackson's article where Amy describes the exact events that have traumatised her.

 

[Chief]

Yeah I'm just trying to find out what Amy's words are. Could be simple as Egan using the wrong name for something or title for a person, all the way through to him trying to convert her to Veganism.

 

[sr36]

Her lawyer stated on radio that the hawthorn review did not turn out to be as culturally safe as she was lead to believe it would

Did he say "culturally" unsafe. My recollection is that he was talking about anonymity and pressure to retell and defend her story. And obviously talking to Egan has put her anonymity at risk and pressured her to participate in further inquiries where she would be retelling her grief and also be challenged. It's opened her up to wellbeing risks. That was my take on what he was saying about safety, as opposed to the dog whistle of "culturally unsafe" that seems to have been inserted into this thread .

 

[the big lebowski]

Did he say "culturally" unsafe. My recollection is that he was talking about anonymity and pressure to retell and defend her story. And obviously talking to Egan has put her anonymity at risk and pressured her to participate in further inquiries where she would be retelling her grief and also be challenged. It's opened her up to wellbeing risks. That was my take on what he was saying about safety, as opposed to the dog whistle of "culturally unsafe" that seems to have been inserted into this thread .

I’m not really sure why you feel the need to second guess what he said but the comment was made in relation to why Amy was not taking part in the afl investigation.

Her lawyer volunteered a parallel between the hawthorn investigation “not Turing out to be safe” and the afl investigation.

You’re coming across as the opposite of these north supporters you claim are trying to muddy the waters by speaking ill of the hawthorn report and the abc article, by employing a dogged defence of both despite even an actual participant speaking negative of the hawthorn report.

Almost like you have an unswayable view that won’t be changed no matter what anyone says.

Odd

For the record, despite the terms of reference specifically naming the hawthorn report as a matter for investigation, a key participant complaint about it, and potential leaks from the company that conducted it, the allegations against Clarkson are still being investigated.

It’s ok to question the process but still hold a single minded view that Clarkson be stripped of his livelihood as you so desperately seem to want.

 

[sr36]

I’m not really sure why you feel the need to second guess what he said but the comment was made in relation to why Amy was not taking part in the afl investigation.

Her lawyer volunteered a parallel between the hawthorn investigation “not Turing out to be safe” and the afl investigation.

You’re coming across as the opposite of these north supporters you claim are trying to muddy the waters by speaking ill of the hawthorn report and the abc article, by employing a dogged defence of both despite even an actual participant speaking negative of the hawthorn report.

Almost like you have an unswayable view that won’t be changed no matter what anyone says.

Odd

For the record, despite the terms of reference specifically naming the hawthorn report as a matter for investigation, a key participant complaint about it, and potential leaks from the company that conducted it, the allegations against Clarkson are still being investigated.

It’s ok to question the process but still hold a single minded view that Clarkson be stripped of his livelihood as you so desperately seem to want.

I wasn't defending the review (which I think was substandard) or the article . I'm just pointing out that he didn't say "culturally unsafe." It's been added into this conversation disingenuously, and is being treated as a truth.

I don't want Clarkson to be stripped of his livelihood. I'm merely pointing out another disingenuous little trick. It may end up being that Alastair didn't do anything much wrong - that'd be great, but rhetorical deciept is still embedded right through this thread.

The review and article are now pretty irrelevant, it's about the allegations that the review uncovered and the article reported on. That's what I'm unbendable about.without players making accusations - there is no story. Someone can try to shift the focus to all these other things which only exist because of the accusations, but the accusations are still the story and whether or not they're truthful, mitigatable or provable.

So feel free to get tricked into focussing on a whole lot of irrelevant crap, but I'll point out the trickery when I see it.

 

[Osho]

Origins of culturally unsafe terminilogy...

Amy's legal rep mentions it several times here.

AFL STATEMENT | Marque Lawyers

www.marquelawyers.com.au

Looks too like the Egan review (actually called a "Hawthorn cultural safety review") is seen as opening Amy up to an AFL process that will be unsafe if she is involved.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Superb analysis. Good job

It is hard to analyse a complete lack of knowledge from someone who has no idea about racism towards Aboriginals.