NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[jenny61_99]

Simple Question has the AFL appointed their independent panel yet, it’s now over a week from when Gilligan promised it or is he waiting for trade period in the hope this goes away?

the other parties aren't keen on participating in an AFL led investigation. Can't blame them really.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

 

[Kram]

Just remember Mr Newbold, it's not a lie, if you believe it.

 

[Teal Leviathan]

They're all cooked and anyone who can be proven to know about it (i.e. Newbold) will be gone too. It's only a matter of time. The sooner the clubs and AFL get their house in order the better. Waiting to hear from Clarkson and Fagan is practically a formality right now. If they had proof which would change anyone's opinion of them, they'd have stated it by now.

I agree that the principal parties involved are probably all cooked, and probably deservedly so, but nonetheless I don't think we can read much into the lack of detailed public reply from Clarkson, Fagan, etc. If they were to put forward their "recollection" of the events in question, even if they were careful not to identify the players and partners, it would probably come across as personal, vindictive muckraking. Even if there were no legal or procedural implications (which is far from clear), publicly declaring that e.g. the indigenous partner in question was a complete loon who was manipulating a vulnerable player such that they felt a duty of care to step in, would likely not be beneficial to the image of Clarkson and others, and ultimately it would convince only those who sympathies already instinctively align with the powerful against the powerless.

 

[Curly5]

Wow, we have now somehow brought climate change and antivax into this thread. Now all we need is a comparison to Hitler and the thread is complete.

Sorry, it's been done already

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'd like to know what people think what the punishment will be.
Do only the people named get punished or does the club as a whole cop it.
Individuals.
*Fines.
*Termination of Employment.
*Criminal Charges
Club.
*Massive Fine.
*Draft Exclusion
*Stripped of Premierships or Points for 2023.

Thoughts??

If you terminate the individuals employment you have no way of imposing a fine.
If the individual considers they have a case for wrongful dismissal they may end up being paid out.
Criminal charges should be laid if there is proof of criminal activity. One word against another would not cut it. ( it is not criminal to suggest that a child be aborted ).

People keep comparing it to the Essendon saga. That was ultimately determined by rules put in place by WADA, where the clubs and players were deemed to have been using performance enhancing drugs. The link between performance enhancement and results ( with lots of history through various sports ) is why points and individual awards were stripped. I'm not sure if a similar response is likely or justified.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If what he is saying is even remotely true in his response (unlikely) he should be sacked for gross incompetence.

I think you have top 5 of your list locked in rofl

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If you terminate the individuals employment you have no way of imposing a fine.
If the individual considers they have a case for wrongful dismissal they may end up being paid out.
Criminal charges should be laid if there is proof of criminal activity. One word against another would not cut it. ( it is not criminal to suggest that a child be aborted ).

People keep comparing it to the Essendon saga. That was ultimately determined by rules put in place by WADA, where the clubs and players were deemed to have been using performance enhancing drugs. The link between performance enhancement and results ( with lots of history through various sports ) is why points and individual awards were stripped. I'm not sure if a similar response is likely or justified.

AFL can still go down the lack of governance and disrepute punishment line.

This is what they (the AFL) punished Essendon for.

 

[Forward Press]

How many different ways can you say the same thing - blaming others for making up their mind on something when that is exactly what you have done?
























This is a thread for discussion on published articles and stories that have received widespread coverage across all media platforms.

The vast majority of us are not denying that Clarkson et al have a right of reply to the allegations but that does not mean we can not or should not discuss the allegations in detail and pass our judgement on their veracity and what it says about our game and the people who run it. And that is the same for your views about it being a media 'stitch up' or choosing to believe that something 'doesn't smell right' about individuals making the allegations.

Trying to shut down discussion with 'pitchfork' comments is juvenile nonsense.

Bah gawd, the man has a family

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Simple Question has the AFL appointed their independent panel yet, it’s now over a week from when Gilligan promised it or is he waiting for trade period in the hope this goes away?

Hahaha. Maybe I'm cynical, but it's probably much harder to find 'Mr. Fix Its' this time around for the AFL. Finding loopholes in tribunal decisions is one thing to attach your name to, but this?

 

[MC Bad Genius]

Has anyone read this?

I don't have a subscription, but my understanding is that young players were often billited with Egan when they first moved to Melbourne including one who's partner stayed in Darwin for several months.

‘They were too busy winning’: Former Hawks Indigenous manager says club must face its past

Leon Egan believes Hawthorn are genuinely trying to make changes, but he said the club in the past had dealt with Indigenous issues in a “tokenistic” fashion.

www.theage.com.au

A few interesting quotes that I've pulled out:

---

Egan said he had chosen to speak publicly because he believed that Hawthorn under CEO Reeves, who took over shortly before Rioli’s acrimonious departure, was genuinely trying to make changes at the club, which he said in the past had dealt with Indigenous issues in a “tokenistic” fashion.

The more recent report that Hawthorn immediately forwarded to the AFL Integrity Unit seems to support this too. So despite the historic allegations being pretty horrific, I think it's worth pointing out that the footy club has improved and is trying to do things better. If nothing else, then at least there is a silver lining to a horribly dark cloud.

---

Of Hawthorn’s recent cultural failings, as outlined by the Riolis, Egan said: “They (the Hawks) were victims of their own success. It doesn’t excuse it, but that’s the way it was. They were too busy winning to worry about issues like putting in place adequate cultural awareness.

“They were so successful that nothing else mattered.”

That tells you pretty much EVERYTHING you need to know. The pursuit (and attainment) of what the AFL industry calls the "ultimate success" shows that the end is far more important than the means. It's hard not to see the parallels with the Essendon scandal in that regard.

---

The Hawks could only find the funding to pay Egan one day a week over a period in which the club regularly recorded seven-figure profits and had received significant sponsorship for Indigenous programs from the Epic Good Foundation. This was also at a time when it was regularly recruiting Indigenous footballers from around Australia.

The blatant hypocrisy really stings. Earning plaudits (and significant money) for their lip service isn't nearly as galling as the behaviour that (allegedly) went on, but it's still pretty disgusting.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

AFL can still go down the lack of governance and disrepute punishment line.

This is what they (the AFL) punished Essendon for.

Newbold's response to the Herald-Sun is evidence alone of appalling governance.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

How do you know it wasn't Kennet throwing a hand grenade?
The biggest hit Hawthorn will likely cop is some financial restitution, and an apology for the conduct of their former employees.

Kennett would have as much to lose as anyone involved with Hawthorn at the time
I get that he never liked Clarkson, but I find it hard to believe he would throw the entire club (and himself) under the bus like this.

 

[Munich]

"Media girl" "welfare person".

Does this DH have any professionalism at all?

 

[Elmer_Judd]

I'd like to know what people think what the punishment will be.
Do only the people named get punished or does the club as a whole cop it.
Individuals.
*Fines.
*Termination of Employment.
*Criminal Charges
Club.
*Massive Fine.
*Draft Exclusion
*Stripped of Premierships or Points for 2023.

Thoughts??

I suspect most of those penalties bar stripping of premiership points will take place.
Good chance Hawthorn start next season as wooden spoon favourites.

Your first round pick definitely should/will be forfeited if much of what has been alleged can be proven (least beyond a reasonable doubt);

 

[nineteen eighty]

Serious question...

Why is it that any time someone on here posts that they are reserving judgment until a proper investigation is conducted they are laughed at, called racist, close minded or some derivation?

What's wrong with taking a position saying...yeah there are some things that do not look good and if they happened that way, those leaders are in a whole world of hurt. But until those issues are investigated and those blokes are given an opportunity to respond, I reserve judgment.

It's not a racism thing with me...go and take a look at my posting in the Adam Goodes thread. It's not a white privilege thing with me...I'm neither white nor privileged. I've faced racism all my life and for the first few decades of my life, I would usually resort to violence.

A line has been crossed with what they did regardless. To what extent it's been crossed, no one on here knows exactly what happened. One side has given their story and the report has been leaked (and no-one knows by who). Aren't we a somewhat civilized society to want to hear what the other side has to say?

I'll wait with baited breath for the laugh emoji's and the like to come my way. Maybe there's one or 2 of you that can engage in a civil discussion without the childish bulltish being thrown my way.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Because this is so sensitive, the only thing to point out is firstly
this will become a political football, which maybe it was leaked
for that very reason? Who knows?

The other points are glaringly obvious, that other things will
have to be opened up sooner or later.

Because half the people are mentioned the other side of thios
story will not come out.

What does that mean if one of the accused people decide to go
and demand they be judged by the legal system in court ,which
one has said may happen , where does any of this end fairly
if people will not be cross examined, and the media has already
regarded the new world as guilty by media?

That is a legitimate question,no offence to anyone meant,
but if cultural issues stop questions,this will die a sworded
death, with besmirched reputations and lives destroyed again,

Yet what if oneof the accused sues someone, or sues media outlets,
what allowances for sensibilities will be put in.
What happens if no accuser will speak , it seems that the
culprit that leaked this and the known reputation of the ABC
that also "put it out" this could be a problem that could have been solved inside.

And that suggests tome the opening up of unproven things ,and no
accusers, is a political stunt.

The people who were hurt in what ever happened or didn't happen at
Hawthorn, they are as damaged again by this publicising by media because
the almost insidious behaviour of news bringers these days is evil
and is growing worse by the day and Aunty always seems to be the
persecuters friend, BEFORE THE FACT!
This is a shocking story, even worse if it is misunderstanding or not'
but worse too if it is never resolved, now Stan Grant is doing a Q&A
on this very story, so hows Stan handle this show when he is without a doubt
emotionally involved. and no proof as to how that happened.

I don't trust ABC anymore but not because of this, I can see witch
hunt written all over this story.

 

[Forward Press]

Serious question...

Why is it that any time someone on here posts that they are reserving judgment until a proper investigation is conducted they are laughed at, called racist, close minded or some derivation?

What's wrong with taking a position saying...yeah there are some things that do not look good and if they happened that way, those leaders are in a whole world of hurt. But until those issues are investigated and those blokes are given an opportunity to respond, I reserve judgment.

It's not a racism thing with me...go and take a look at my posting in the Adam Goodes thread. It's not a white privilege thing with me...I'm neither white nor privileged. I've faced racism all my life and for the first few decades of my life, I would usually resort to violence.

A line has been crossed with what they did regardless. To what extent it's been crossed, no one on here knows exactly what happened. One side has given their story and the report has been leaked (and no-one knows by who). Aren't we a somewhat civilized society to want to hear what the other side has to say?

I'll wait with baited breath for the laugh emoji's and the like to come my way. Maybe there's one or 2 of you that can engage in a civil discussion without the childish bulltish being thrown my way.

How many different ways can you say the same thing - blaming others for making up their mind on something when that is exactly what you have done?
























This is a thread for discussion on published articles and stories that have received widespread coverage across all media platforms.

The vast majority of us are not denying that Clarkson et al have a right of reply to the allegations but that does not mean we can not or should not discuss the allegations in detail and pass our judgement on their veracity and what it says about our game and the people who run it. And that is the same for your views about it being a media 'stitch up' or choosing to believe that something 'doesn't smell right' about individuals making the allegations.

Trying to shut down discussion with 'pitchfork' comments is juvenile nonsense.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Serious question...

Why is it that any time someone on here posts that they are reserving judgment until a proper investigation is conducted they are laughed at, called racist, close minded or some derivation?

What's wrong with taking a position saying...yeah there are some things that do not look good and if they happened that way, those leaders are in a whole world of hurt. But until those issues are investigated and those blokes are given an opportunity to respond, I reserve judgment.

It's not a racism thing with me...go and take a look at my posting in the Adam Goodes thread. It's not a white privilege thing with me...I'm neither white nor privileged. I've faced racism all my life and for the first few decades of my life, I would usually resort to violence.

A line has been crossed with what they did regardless. To what extent it's been crossed, no one on here knows exactly what happened. One side has given their story and the report has been leaked (and no-one knows by who). Aren't we a somewhat civilized society to want to hear what the other side has to say?

I'll wait with baited breath for the laugh emoji's and the like to come my way. Maybe there's one or 2 of you that can engage in a civil discussion without the childish bulltish being thrown my way.

You refuse to look at the evidence and you think there's a good chance that 9 indigenous people and an assistant coach are all liars.
For those reasons your argument has no credibility and all you're doing is defending racist behaviour.

 

[Forward Press]

The people who were hurt in what ever happened or didn't happen at
Hawthorn, they are as damaged again by this publicising by media because
the almost insidious behaviour of news bringers these days is evil
and is growing worse by the day and Aunty always seems to be the
persecuters friend, BEFORE THE FACT!
This is a shocking story, even worse if it is misunderstanding or not'
but worse too if it is never resolved, now Stan Grant is doing a Q&A
on this very story, so hows Stan handle this show when he is without a doubt
emotionally involved. and no proof as to how that happened.

I don't trust ABC anymore but not because of this, I can see witch
hunt written all over this story.

How dare a media organisation reports negative things about the club I support.

Let's just do away with reporting on arrests and crimes, because the facts haven't been confirmed yet and there's a chance they are being persecuted unfairly.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Simple Question has the AFL appointed their independent panel yet, it’s now over a week from when Gilligan promised it or is he waiting for trade period in the hope this goes away?

Like everything else involved with this it will go on forever. F.O.R.E.V.E.R.

It's now lawyers at 10 yards with Fagan and Clarkson denying and appointing legal teams. Nothing will move quickly. It's basically becoming a quasi-criminal case, investigation, negotiation, sentencing, etc.

You have to wonder at what point North and Brisbane will just appoint new coaches and extricate themselves from the mess. They're the innocent third parties here and have footy clubs to run.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Serious question...

Why is it that any time someone on here posts that they are reserving judgment until a proper investigation is conducted they are laughed at, called racist, close minded or some derivation?

I don't think I've seen that.

I have seen one absolute scrotum saying in one breath that he will reserve judgment until a proper investigation is conducted, then in the very next breath rattles off multiple baseless views and forms a judgement that the whole thing is a beat up and stitch up.

That flog deserves all the criticism he has received. It's just idiotic.

 

[nineteen eighty]

You refuse to look at the evidence and you think there's a good chance that 9 indigenous people and an assistant coach are all liars.
For those reasons your argument has no credibility and all you're doing is defending racist behaviour.

When did I say that? Never!! You're dreaming that mate. You're proving my point exactly. I have NOT said they are liars. I have simply said the other parties should have the right to put forward their version of events before we condemn them.

Shame on you but you've proved my point.

Go on now, give me another thumbs down.

And I repeat...I have NEVER called the people in the report liars. You're either thinking of someone else on here, somewhat confused or an idiot. Which one are you??

 

[Saint]

Because this is so sensitive, the only thing to point out is firstly
this will become a political football, which maybe it was leaked
for that very reason? Who knows?

The other points are glaringly obvious, that other things will
have to be opened up sooner or later.

Because half the people are mentioned the other side of thios
story will not come out.

What does that mean if one of the accused people decide to go
and demand they be judged by the legal system in court ,which
one has said may happen , where does any of this end fairly
if people will not be cross examined, and the media has already
regarded the new world as guilty by media?

That is a legitimate question,no offence to anyone meant,
but if cultural issues stop questions,this will die a sworded
death, with besmirched reputations and lives destroyed again,

Yet what if oneof the accused sues someone, or sues media outlets,
what allowances for sensibilities will be put in.
What happens if no accuser will speak , it seems that the
culprit that leaked this and the known reputation of the ABC
that also "put it out" this could be a problem that could have been solved inside.

And that suggests tome the opening up of unproven things ,and no
accusers, is a political stunt.

The people who were hurt in what ever happened or didn't happen at
Hawthorn, they are as damaged again by this publicising by media because
the almost insidious behaviour of news bringers these days is evil
and is growing worse by the day and Aunty always seems to be the
persecuters friend, BEFORE THE FACT!
This is a shocking story, even worse if it is misunderstanding or not'
but worse too if it is never resolved, now Stan Grant is doing a Q&A
on this very story, so hows Stan handle this show when he is without a doubt
emotionally involved. and no proof as to how that happened.

I don't trust ABC anymore but not because of this, I can see witch
hunt written all over this story.

Why is Stan Grant "without a doubt emotionally involved"? Why aren't you emotionally involved that in the 2000's people in positions of power are still treating employees this way? So indigenous people care about indigenous people but others can't? I feel emotionally involved. It makes me sick to my stomach.

This whole comment says way more about you than it does about your crazed view of the ABC as persecuting people.

 

[Sentinel]

Of Hawthorn’s recent cultural failings, as outlined by the Riolis, Egan said: “They (the Hawks) were victims of their own success. It doesn’t excuse it, but that’s the way it was. They were too busy winning to worry about issues like putting in place adequate cultural awareness.

“They were so successful that nothing else mattered.”

That tells you pretty much EVERYTHING you need to know. The pursuit (and attainment) of what the AFL industry calls the "ultimate success" shows that the end is far more important than the means. It's hard not to see the parallels with the Essendon scandal in that regard.

It's always interesting when this kind of attitude within clubs rears its head. 'Who cares what else is going on so long as you're winning, because that's the only thing that ultimately matters.'

We saw it earlier this year with the Goodwin stuff (I'm not commenting on the veracity of what was reported, but the attitude from many fans was "so what, we won the flag"), West Coast's drug culture in the 2000s and you could make a case about Bomber Thompson's years at Geelong given what's since come out about his own personal circumstances.

It's impossible to know whether such issues would be given the all clear know without the element of club success, but it's apparently a lot easier to turn a blind eye when you're winning premierships. Often only with a rear view mirror are eyebrows raised.