NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[The Warlord]

If there's one thing we know in professional sport it's that winning covers everything.

We've seen it many times when the s**t comes out after the run is over, not just in the AFL but everywhere.

Most stuff never see the light of day anyway though.

If it makes you feel better I stopped following footy almost 2 years ago because I didn't see the league or the Hawks as worth supporting with how many times the s**t comes out and gets brushed off without real change

Look at what Lidia Thorpe is copping now. The problems in the colony go way beyond footy.

Imo footy has overall been a force for good in helping while Australia understand and come to terms with our role in inflicting horrific indigenous experiences.

 

[ferball]

I assume that you meant ignorant rather than inappropriate? It depends on the culture. I know a fair bit about a lot of Asian cultures, but am very ignorant about indigenous cultures.

Honestly the entire AFL was fairly culturally inappropriate for the period of the review. It probably still is.

There has to be some of intention to be a prick about this, driven by race to really make Clarkson and Fagan (and BUrt) look bad. Was culturally appropriate even a thing in that period? Cos if it wasn't and they were basically ignorant of the harm they caused then how much punishment should they suffer? In criminal law there is the concept of mens rea and its associated with the intention to commit the crime. Proving it is as important as proving the actual criminal act.

If they don't show that and had no reasonable way of knowing otherwise then where do we sit with this?

 

[Luv_our_club]

Maybe the best thing that can happen is the parties talking. Maybe it would inspire Clarkson and Fagan to offer something like apologies even if they never felt they should simply cos they understand the depth of the players and families pain. It could be an important healing thing for those people even if Clarkson and Fagan don't think they'd done anything wrong right now (or even after the yarn, it might not matter to them anymore.)

That is very tricky.

It might not do the indegenous community or the country any favours if anglo-saxans in power start issuing apologies just to make people feel better and not because they felt they did anything wrong. It kind of turns "sorry" into a means of controlling people.

But I think a yarn would be good.

 

[ferball]

I used to work for Catholic education and Miriam Rose is like a rock star in there. I really like her approach, cleverly communicates to both first nations and non first nations communities. I get uneasy about the jesus links, but she has her own way of combining it with her traditional beliefs and creating something very new in Australian catholicism. She is hugely influential, practical and progressive.

Her style won't be for everyone though.

There are some weird similarities with descriptions of jesus in some pre invasion societies and Christianity. Not the same but similar.

 

[sr36]

Honestly the entire AFL was fairly culturally inappropriate for the period of the review. It probably still is.

There has to be some of intention to be a prick about this, driven by race to really make Clarkson and Fagan (and BUrt) look bad. Was culturally appropriate even a thing in that period? Cos if it wasn't and they were basically ignorant of the harm they caused then how much punishment should they suffer? In criminal law there is the concept of mens rea and its associated with the intention to commit the crime. Proving it is as important as proving the actual criminal act.

If they don't show that and had no reasonable way of knowing otherwise then where do we sit with this?

I'd agree with you if they weren't going with a no wrongdoing stance. Because to me wrongdoing occurs regardless of intention. But we're both ahead of ourselves on assuming that cultural misunderstanding was a significant part of whatever occurred or didn't occur.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Honestly the entire AFL was fairly culturally inappropriate for the period of the review. It probably still is.

There has to be some of intention to be a prick about this, driven by race to really make Clarkson and Fagan (and BUrt) look bad. Was culturally appropriate even a thing in that period? Cos if it wasn't and they were basically ignorant of the harm they caused then how much punishment should they suffer? In criminal law there is the concept of mens rea and its associated with the intention to commit the crime. Proving it is as important as proving the actual criminal act.

If they don't show that and had no reasonable way of knowing otherwise then where do we sit with this?

I heard someone say the other day that so much of what is alleged is part of the AFL's boarding school culture.

Boarding schools control the life of their students, and AFL clubs have embraced that culture.

So many draftees come from boarding schools / elite schools.

When players get recruited they get boarded by the club with families. Their lives are taken over.

It is not a shock for most eighteen year old AFL players to enter that boarding school culture... but it is a huge shock and potentially dangerous for an eighteen year old from a remote indigenous community to enter it


Note: I don't mean to downplay the allegations by raising this analogy.

 

[ferball]

You’re talking to brick walls there. They have beliefs learned from a single unit at uni and facts cannot sway them. On our board I quoted similar stats and one of these types posted pre royal commission into aboriginal deaths in custody stats in an attempt to discredit modern figures.

Yeah man. Over policing is great.

 

[ferball]

I'd agree with you if they weren't going with a no wrongdoing stance. Because to me wrongdoing occurs regardless of intention. But we're both ahead of ourselves on assuming that cultural misunderstanding was a significant part of whatever occurred or didn't occur.

I'm hoping it is cos the alternative is appalling.

But it doesn't fit with stuff I've heard and my understanding of those guys as coaches. And I get that Hawthoen isn't the most kosher place but Brisbane puts massive efforts into indiegnous engagement and eductaion of its non indigenous people.

And about the no wrongdoing stance - you've been accuised of forcing people to have abortions a decade ago - but you don't remember doing that at all. You discussed it as an option maybe but not as a requirement.

How would you react to that article?

I'd probably deny it too. If i changed my mind on reflection I'd save it for the investigation too.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

One guaranteed outcome of this is that clubs are not going to take risks on indigenous players.

If they haven't gone through private school scholarships like Cyril Rioi or Jy Simpkin and "proven" themselves, it'll be seen as too risky by lots of clubs

I hope this is not the learning clubs take. I hope the learning they take is that if they take players from vastly different cultural backgrounds to the current status quo, they need to invest in providing a culturally safe environment with culturally safe support mechanisms.

I think the AFL needs a o assist with this by ensuring these investments are outside the soft cap and ideally are funded by the AFL. I think it is an existential problem for the AFL if indigenous players are not safe playing the game. The AFL has to set up.

 

[The Warlord]

I heard someone say the other day that so much of what is alleged is part of the AFL's boarding school culture.

Boarding schools control the life of their students, and AFL clubs have embraced that culture.

So many draftees come from boarding schools / elite schools.

When players get recruited they get boarded by the club with families. Their lives are taken over.

It is not a shock for most eighteen year old AFL players to enter that boarding school culture... but it is a huge shock and potentially dangerous for an eighteen year old from a remote indigenous community to enter it


Note: I don't mean to downplay the allegations by raising this analogy.

Interesting post. GWS setting up that Breakfast Point deal was recognition of that culture you describe

 

[ferball]

You’re not making any sense again. The AFL appear to have bent over backwards to make this “sensitive” even keeping the offer of remediation on the the table. They don’t get to choose the umpire.

I don’t want anyones claims “dismissed”. That’s the whole point. Let’s hear what everyone has to say. If they refuse to participate…we’ll that says a lot.

It doesn't really. They just might be sick of dredging this up. It might be why they never brought it up until they were asked. People want them to be liars.

Anyway iirc someone who has posted in this thread referred to one of the people on the panel as a "race baiting white hater" or wtte, or at least posted a refernce to a website describing them that way, so surely if that is the case and they can't convince the players and partners to be involved then I would have questions as to why not.

BTW Its not really a fair description of that particular individual

 

[ferball]

Have you ever been to Sydney? Do you know anything at all about it's demographics? The Aboriginal population that wasn't forced to be relocated to regional NSW for the Sydney Olympics is largely located in rugby league heartland.

Surely you mean "was forced".

 

[Gralin]

One guaranteed outcome of this is that clubs are not going to take risks on indigenous players.

If they haven't gone through private school scholarships like Cyril Rioi or Jy Simpkin and "proven" themselves, it'll be seen as too risky by lots of clubs

I mean Cyril kicked this whole thing off by going public earlier this year but yes lets make this about that because its exactly the kind of excuse used to not talk about this stuff

Look at what Lidia Thorpe is copping now. The problems in the colony go way beyond footy.

Imo footy has overall been a force for good in helping while Australia understand and come to terms with our role in inflicting horrific indigenous experiences.

I'm well aware but the topic of this thread is really meant to be about the footy allegations and how the clubs and AFL will deal with them/not deal with them

But yeah I don't think footy has actually been a real trail blazer I think its surface stuff, it has its place but its also another way of accepting if you conform

 

[ferball]

I know exactly what I am talking about. You are wrong, as a social construct it is very real. It is the foundation of racism.

Culture may be a defining element, or it may not. Physical appearance or geographic location may also define a race.

I know you're banned right now but hopefully when you get around to reading this you'll have realised youse are both saying something very similar.

 

[mcnulty]

It doesn't really. They just might be sick of dredging this up. It might be why they never brought it up until they were asked. People want them to be liars.

Anyway iirc someone who has posted in this thread referred to one of the people on the panel as a "race baiting white hater" or wtte, or at least posted a refernce to a website describing them that way, so surely if that is the case and they can't convince the players and partners to be involved then I would have questions as to why not.

BTW Its not really a fair description of that particular individual

Sick of dredging this up a second after they went to the national broadcaster. Well, that’s a theory…

 

[The Warlord]

I mean Cyril kicked this whole thing off by going public earlier this year but yes lets make this about that because its exactly the kind of excuse used to not talk about this stuff

I want this stuff discussed by the Yoo-Rook Commission.

 

[western royboy]

I don't get why so many people are hung up on Jackson.

I'm saying the allegations should be investigated by a body with the powers of a Royal Commission.

I appear to take them far more seriously than you, who thinks one article is unimpeachable truth

Jackson brought the issue out into the light, where it needed to be so it can be dealt with. Don’t shoot the messenger, plenty of people and issues to be examined but Jackson and the ABC will not be sued for defamation as so many think because all they did was report an important issue that came to their attention. The fact that we’ve got a three cornered lawyer show tells you that and none of those are defamation lawyers.

 

[sr36]

I'm hoping it is cos the alternative is appalling.

But it doesn't fit with stuff I've heard and my understanding of those guys as coaches. And I get that Hawthoen isn't the most kosher place but Brisbane puts massive efforts into indiegnous engagement and eductaion of its non indigenous people.

And about the no wrongdoing stance - you've been accuised of forcing people to have abortions a decade ago - but you don't remember doing that at all. You discussed it as an option maybe but not as a requirement.

How would you react to that article?

I'd probably deny it too. If i changed my mind on reflection I'd save it for the investigation too.

I see 3 possibilities, or a combination of the 3:

1. It's bullshit
2. The coaches felt that these guys lifestyles were stopping them from succeeding and cultural misunderstanding caused suggestions to be viewed as commands
3. The coaches felt that these guys lifestyles were stopping them from succeeding and they were assertive in their demands.

I think the third is the most likely, but don't know enough about indigenous responses to authority figures to know if the second is likely. I've worked a bit with Karen refugees where number 2 would be a real possibility.

 

[The Warlord]

Jackson brought the issue out into the light, where it needed to be so it can be dealt with. Don’t shoot the messenger, plenty of people and issues to be examined but Jackson and the ABC will not be sued for defamation as so many think because all they did was report an important issue that came to their attention. The fact that we’ve got a three cornered lawyer show tells you that and none of those are defamation lawyers.

"Don't shoot the messenger" is crap. Jackson isn't a postie ffs.

 

[The Warlord]

I see 3 possibilities, or a combination of the 3:

1. It's bullshit
2. The coaches felt that these guys lifestyles were stopping them from succeeding and cultural misunderstanding caused suggestions to be viewed as commands
3. The coaches felt that these guys lifestyles were stopping them from succeeding and they were assertive in their demands.

I think the third is the most likely, but don't know enough about indigenous responses to authority figures to know if the second is likely. I've worked a bit with Karen refugees where number 2 would be a real possibility.

Mix of 2 and 3.

 

[sr36]

One guaranteed outcome of this is that clubs are not going to take risks on indigenous players.

If they haven't gone through private school scholarships like Cyril Rioi or Jy Simpkin and "proven" themselves, it'll be seen as too risky by lots of clubs

Pretty much what Rendell was trying to say before he got railroaded and hung out to dry. Which was about the time this was going on.

My view is that it's likely that Hawthorn attempted their own solution to rectify the failure rate that Rendell was referencing. But I think that a club like Richmond has really altered the landscape. They'll still recruit Sydney Stack and they'll embrace him, but they'll cut him loose if he can't adjust to the demands, rather than trying too hard to force the adjustments.

 

[ferball]

I mean Cyril kicked this whole thing off by going public earlier this year but yes lets make this about that because its exactly the kind of excuse used to not talk about this stuff


I'm well aware but the topic of this thread is really meant to be about the footy allegations and how the clubs and AFL will deal with them/not deal with them

But yeah I don't think footy has actually been a real trail blazer I think its surface stuff, it has its place but its also another way of accepting if you conform

Believe me it makes a difference.

Things were so bad compared to now, and they ain't all that great right now. I used to go fruit picking in the Riverina in the late 80s and early 90s and I'd stop by the camp on the river and ask where the dangerous cops were then not work or camp in those areas. You don't need to do that now. Its not a potential threat to your life the way it was.

People still die in custody but there's alot less outright murders in custody.

There's a definite correlation between the visibility of aboriginal players and the way indigenous Australian issues have become something mainstream Australia cares about. Other things too. Music for example - that song solid rock and Midnight Oil actually exposing people on the East Coast to Warumpi Band. The Bicentennial.

Sport built a bridge that simply wasn't there. It might not have been perfect, far from it but without Riolis, Krakouers, Cables, Winmars, Kicketts ...

I think it was Micheal Long who was kept out of a club in St Kilda while the rest of the Essendon side was allowed in. It was ****ed and there was outrage in white society. I remember being shocked by that because I genuinely didn't think people gave a * ( especially Essendon people, I'd been to Windy Hill in the 80s.). And credit to Essendon, who I usually hate, cos they arced up about it and made a stand.

That was years before his mediation with Monkhurst.

 

[Gralin]

I want this stuff discussed by the Yoo-Rook Commission.

you're all over the shop maybe come back tomorrow hey

 

[Gralin]

Believe me it makes a difference.

Things were so bad compared to now, and they ain't all that great right now. I used to go fruit picking in the Riverina in the late 80s and early 90s and I'd stop by the camp on the river and ask where the dangerous cops were then not work or camp in those areas. You don't need to do that now. Its not a potential threat to your life the way it was.

People still die in custody but there's alot less outright murders in custody.

There's a definite correlation between the visibility of aboriginal players and the way indigenous Australian issues have become something mainstream Australia cares about. Other things too. Music for example - that song solid rock and Midnight Oil actually exposing people on the East Coast to Warumpi Band. The Bicentennial.

Sport built a bridge that simply wasn't there. It might not have been perfect, far from it but without Riolis, Krakouers, Cables, Winmars, Kicketts ...

I think it was Micheal Long who was kept out of a club in St Kilda while the rest of the Essendon side was allowed in. It was cactus and there was outrage in white society. I remember being shocked by that because I genuinely didn't think people gave a * ( especially Essendon people, I'd been to Windy Hill in the 80s.). And credit to Essendon, who I usually hate, cos they arced up about it and made a stand.

That was years before his mediation with Monkhurst.

oh god the AFL as a saviour?
go to bed

 

[ferball]

Sick of dredging this up a second after they went to the national broadcaster. Well, that’s a theory…

Yeah and look at the s**t they've copped since, even while anonymous.