Preview Hawthorn v Carlton

[TazHawk15]

Carlton have a huge following in Tasmania from all reports.

Yep and everyone of them are ********s.

Except my best mate who is the only Carltank supporter I like.

 

[MC_9]

I know this board is in love with Brand.

But I'm still not convinced. He made some absolutely terrible decisions on the weekend, and kicked the ball directly to Richmond players on multiple occasions.

Obviously he gets the benefit of the doubt, as he has only played 7 games. But he just cant make these mistakes/ decisions in finals. It will kill us.

 

[Main Man]

I know this board is in love with Brand.

But I'm still not convinced. He made some absolutely terrible decisions on the weekend, and kicked the ball directly to Richmond players on multiple occasions.

Obviously he gets the benefit of the doubt, as he has only played 7 games. But he just cant make these mistakes/ decisions in finals. It will kill us.

Yes he made one or two mistakes but every player makes mistakes every week, Gibson had a shocking kick that went straight to Richmond at one stage, Hodgey had a couple of terrible kicks, Hill, Bruest, Poppy made some poor decisions at times and McEvoy hand balled straight to Richmond in the back 50 costing us a goal, why single out the mistakes of a 7 gamer as you say?

How well are Stratton, Gibson and co going not having to worry about playing on the 2nd tall? That for me at this stage is the biggest benefit of having Brand in the team, he has to stay in for mine.

 

[ralphwiggum]

Obviously he gets the benefit of the doubt, as he has only played 7 games. But he just cant make these mistakes/ decisions in finals. It will kill us.

True but without Spangher and Schoenmakers being fit and available, we may not have too many options at present so let's see how the next few weeks go.

At this stage, without setting the world on fire, I think Brand's doing a pretty good job at taking the opposition's 2nd tall forward, for mine, he's tracking very nicely and has exceeded many people's expectations.

Think about the last time we had a home-grown key back to develop. They had to be thrown to the wolves, basically. With a settled backline now, we can let Brand develop properly... it's all good.

 

[savagelunchbox]

I know this board is in love with Brand.

But I'm still not convinced. He made some absolutely terrible decisions on the weekend, and kicked the ball directly to Richmond players on multiple occasions.

Obviously he gets the benefit of the doubt, as he has only played 7 games. But he just cant make these mistakes/ decisions in finals. It will kill us.

There is this misguided expectation that Brand, being the player that is now playing Brian Lake's position, needs to be immediately good as Brian Lake was during his time at Hawthorn.

However, if you set the expectations at a more realistic level, then you'll be able to see how good he is for someone at this stage of his career.

There's is also this misconception that Brian Lake was a perfect defender because we only seem to remember his best times, but if you think back in more depth, Lake often dropped marks and kicked to opposition players that resulted in goals. He was far from a perfect footballer and it took him 6 years into his career to be noted as a top line defender. Brand is in his 3rd year, one of which saw him play 1 practice match before a season ending injury, and he's already showing signs that no other KPD defender has who was drafted by Hawthorn under Clarkson's reign.

 

[Main Man]

There is this misguided expectation that Brand, being the player that is now playing Brian Lake's position, needs to be immediately good as Brian Lake was during his time at Hawthorn.

However, if you set the expectations at a more realistic level, then you'll be able to see how good he is for someone at this stage of his career.

There's is also this misconception that Brian Lake was a perfect defender because we only seem to remember his best times, but if you think back in more depth, Lake often dropped marks and kicked to opposition players that resulted in goals. He was far from a perfect footballer and it took him 6 years into his career to be noted as a top line defender. Brand is in his 3rd year, one of which saw him play 1 practice match before a season ending injury, and he's already showing signs that no other KPD defender has who was drafted by Hawthorn under Clarkson's reign.

Agreed, in terms of his first 7 games then he compares favorably to any of the gun back men in the compeition at present, by the time he gets to 50 games I think he will be a gun CHB of the competition.

I think MC_9 was specifically referring to this year and I don't share his concern but understand why some might, for me he is holding his own in defense but the biggest impact is the flow on effect he has in releasing other players such as Gibson, Stratton and even Hodge/Burgoyne to go and do what they do best instead of worrying about the team defense on a 2nd key forward, invaluable.

 

[HawkMongrel]

Yep and everyone of them are ********s.

Except my best mate who is the only Carltank supporter I like.

Couldn't be any worse than the Tassie Eagles fan in 2007 that invited me to fight him after it was clear we were about to win and I waved goodbye to him when he got up to leave after he spent the whole afternoon trolling me for no apparent reason.

The reason became clearer when he challenged me from below the grandstand like a big man with pearlers such as "come on down here and fight me you wog c**t" and "why don't you go back to your home and play soccer you wog c**t?".

Classy stuff.

 

[Brishawk]

If we don't play Brand we end up with Hodge or Burgoyne on Ruckman. I for one don't want to see that in a final!

 

[MC_9]

Agreed, in terms of his first 7 games then he compares favorably to any of the gun back men in the compeition at present, by the time he gets to 50 games I think he will be a gun CHB of the competition.

I think MC_9 was specifically referring to this year and I don't share his concern but understand why some might, for me he is holding his own in defense but the biggest impact is the flow on effect he has in releasing other players such as Gibson, Stratton and even Hodge/Burgoyne to go and do what they do best instead of worrying about the team defense on a 2nd key forward, invaluable.

Yeah I am certainly not saying Brand wont make it, and I would agree that he is the best KPD we have drafted for a long time (although not hard). It's just being so raw as defender (were mistakes are amplified by 10) heading into high pressure finals, it is something that the MC will be thinking about.

Considering that he played Richmond who don't exactly have an imposing forward line, Clarko might have made the decision that Brand is direction we are taking heading into finals. If thats the case, I hope he kills it.

No doubt the coaching staff will have a good look at Brands game though, and will be showing him Frawley as an example to model his game on. Chip knows his limitations and plays to them. Brand tried to bite off more than he could chew with a few kicks out of defense, when he should have instead given it off to our elite users.

Also a couple of decisions to punch into the corridor, instead of marking or punching to the boundary line. And grabbing Lloyds jumper when we had a 3 on 1 contest, and giving away the free kick. These are all minor things that can be fixed with experience.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

In Brand's defense - I think the good he did on Sunday far outweighed the bad. He took some crucial intercept marks when the game was still frustratingly in the balance. He cut off Richmond's attack quite a few times that I can recall and I remember being really impressed until he made a really bad mistake when the game was no longer at risk of being lost. With our moderately okay run home - I would be happy to keep giving him game time to build his confidence should he still be playing come finals time.

 

[MC_9]

In Brand's defense - I think the good he did on Sunday far outweighed the bad. He took some crucial intercept marks when the game was still frustratingly in the balance. He cut off Richmond's attack quite a few times that I can recall and I remember being really impressed until he made a really bad mistake when the game was no longer at risk of being lost. With our moderately okay run home - I would be happy to keep giving him game time to build his confidence should he still be playing come finals time.

100% agree with that. He has the rest of the season to prove he has what he takes to play finals.

I hope he does prove me wrong, because it will make us a better team.

But I still have nightmares about a young KPD in high pressure finals making crucial errors and crucial stages of matches in 2011&12.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

100% agree with that. He has the rest of the season to prove he has what he takes to play finals.

I hope he does prove me wrong, because it will make us a better team.

But I still have nightmares about a young KPD in high pressure finals making crucial errors and crucial stages of matches in 2011&12.

You've definitely got a point - but if he has Chips, Strats, Birch and Gibbo all helping hold down the fort, then I am not as concerned. This isn't like 2012 when Schoey was our last line of defense - we have Chips for that now. It allows us the luxury of allowing a player like Brand to develop. He doesn't make me panic like Schoey2012 did.

 

[bris tarangau]

Yes he made one or two mistakes but every player makes mistakes every week, Gibson had a shocking kick that went straight to Richmond at one stage, Hodgey had a couple of terrible kicks, Hill, Bruest, Poppy made some poor decisions at times and McEvoy hand balled straight to Richmond in the back 50 costing us a goal, why single out the mistakes of a 7 gamer as you say?

How well are Stratton, Gibson and co going not having to worry about playing on the 2nd tall? That for me at this stage is the biggest benefit of having Brand in the team, he has to stay in for mine.

Agree. I wish those that are critical of the young defenders also make notes of the number of times the senior players miss targets in F50 which would have resulted in certain goals!

 

[Main Man]

Agree. I wish those that are critical of the young defenders also make notes of the number of times the senior players miss targets in F50 which would have resulted in certain goals!

Hill, Bruest, Poppy and Birch were all culprits on Sunday making poor decisions or executing poorly going forward when we looked to have a great opportunity to score.

 

[MC_9]

Agree. I wish those that are critical of the young defenders also make notes of the number of times the senior players miss targets in F50 which would have resulted in certain goals!

These Senior players have runs on the board and a proven track record of standing up in big finals.

The young blokes obviously haven't had that opportunity, but we can only judge them on what we see.

 

[Gralin]

Yeah I am certainly not saying Brand wont make it, and I would agree that he is the best KPD we have drafted for a long time (although not hard). It's just being so raw as defender (were mistakes are amplified by 10) heading into high pressure finals, it is something that the MC will be thinking about.

Considering that he played Richmond who don't exactly have an imposing forward line, Clarko might have made the decision that Brand is direction we are taking heading into finals. If thats the case, I hope he kills it.

No doubt the coaching staff will have a good look at Brands game though, and will be showing him Frawley as an example to model his game on. Chip knows his limitations and plays to them. Brand tried to bite off more than he could chew with a few kicks out of defense, when he should have instead given it off to our elite users.

Also a couple of decisions to punch into the corridor, instead of marking or punching to the boundary line. And grabbing Lloyds jumper when we had a 3 on 1 contest, and giving away the free kick. These are all minor things that can be fixed with experience.

You are listing things that everyone on Hawthorn has done or does do at some time. Players spoil when they should mark, or spoil the wrong way, sometimes they misjudge and it comes off the hand wrong, sometimes its team instruction and the player that is meant to be there isn't.

At Hawthorn you take the kick, if you are not willing to take the kick you don't play. The kicks don't always come off, hell how many did Birch miss during the game, but you take the kick. Brand is a decent kick, I think he is a better kick than Chip and as such may have been given license to try more. Now there will be things reviewed, coached etc, there might be a couple of kicks where they say you should have done this instead, like they would with every player every week.

For a kid who has played 7 games I think you are being overly critical of him on here.

 

[bris tarangau]

These Senior players have runs on the board and a proven track record of standing up in big finals.

The young blokes obviously haven't had that opportunity, but we can only judge them on what we see.

How about 'these senior players should know better'?

 

[Ned Ryerson]

These Senior players have runs on the board and a proven track record of standing up in big finals.

The young blokes obviously haven't had that opportunity, but we can only judge them on what we see.

Did well in his second game vs Sydney and did really well against Port - both had a finals-like intensity about them.

 

[Gralin]

These Senior players have runs on the board and a proven track record of standing up in big finals.

The young blokes obviously haven't had that opportunity, but we can only judge them on what we see.

Brand is doing more good than bad on average, keep doing that and he will have runs on the board, using his inexperience as the excuse to pot his mistakes and ignore senior players mistakes is just poor.

You either point out all the mistakes that all the players make or you move on. He didn't have a bad game on Sunday, he had 18 disposals and 7 of those were from intercepts, equal highest on the ground with Gibbo on the day. Last three weeks he's been first of second on the team for intercepts with 8, 7 and 7

That's fantastic for a young key defender, it means opponents are going to have to start wondering where he is or continue getting cut off. It frees others up to play different roles and gives us more flexibility with match ups.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Brand is doing more good than bad on average, keep doing that and he will have runs on the board, using his inexperience as the excuse to pot his mistakes and ignore senior players mistakes is just poor.

You either point out all the mistakes that all the players make or you move on. He didn't have a bad game on Sunday, he had 18 disposals and 7 of those were from intercepts, equal highest on the ground with Gibbo on the day. Last three weeks he's been first of second on the team for intercepts with 8, 7 and 7

That's fantastic for a young key defender, it means opponents are going to have to start wondering where he is or continue getting cut off. It frees others up to play different roles and gives us more flexibility with match ups.

Glad I wasn't imagining the intercept marks. I remember saying out aloud 'Good job Kaiden' numerous times throughout the match. That is why I am surprised that he is copping some flak over the couple of bad decisions made when the game was already won.

 

[Gralin]

Glad I wasn't imagining the intercept marks. I remember saying out aloud 'Good job Kaiden' numerous times throughout the match. That is why I am surprised that he is copping some flak over the couple of bad decisions made when the game was already won.

they weren't all marks he only had 5, so some would just be cutting off a hand ball or not marking but retaining possession of an intercepted kick etc

It's a really promising feature of his game

 

[Dragz]

well there were no seats available on ticketmaster on sunday night, i had to get general admission

Ring the footy club. TIcketmaster are scumbags sometimes and say everything has sold out then release another batch of seats closer to the day. Then they wonder why people don't turn up.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

they weren't all marks he only had 5, so some would just be cutting off a hand ball or not marking but retaining possession of an intercepted kick etc

It's a really promising feature of his game

Absolutely. As much as I love our 'Big 4' of the defensive unit (Chips, Birch, Strats and Gibbo) none of them are really renowned for those intercept marks except maybe Birchall. Having Brand being able to do that adds a new dimension to our defense, and I dare say there is a correlation to his selection and our points conceded dropping.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Ring the footy club. TIcketmaster are scumbags sometimes and say everything has sold out then release another batch of seats closer to the day. Then they wonder why people don't turn up.

Ticketek did that last week. Level 1 seats only went on sale over the weekend - were showing as sold out all through the week.

 

[MC_9]

You are listing things that everyone on Hawthorn has done or does do at some time. Players spoil when they should mark, or spoil the wrong way, sometimes they misjudge and it comes off the hand wrong, sometimes its team instruction and the player that is meant to be there isn't.

At Hawthorn you take the kick, if you are not willing to take the kick you don't play. The kicks don't always come off, hell how many did Birch miss during the game, but you take the kick. Brand is a decent kick, I think he is a better kick than Chip and as such may have been given license to try more. Now there will be things reviewed, coached etc, there might be a couple of kicks where they say you should have done this instead, like they would with every player every week.

For a kid who has played 7 games I think you are being overly critical of him on here.

Look you are probably right in that I am being overly critical. It is probably because I was watching him closer then the other players, as I was just interested to see how he went.

He did do some nice things, but he also made some howlers. As I said previously these are amplified in defense because it often results in an opposition score.

Having said that Birchall also made plenty of howlers, but that is more uncharacteristic of him. Birchall is a proven player, so we know what he can produce.

But as I have said perviously, he does deserve to hold his spot for the rest of the H&A. Then I will back Clarko and Co to make the right call, whether that be he stays or goes.

Anyway apologies for derailing the thread on Brand.

Lets just hope we belt those blue baggers and move into prime location on the squiggle . And of course tighten our hold on 1st place.