Analysis Hawthorn's Drafting over the last 10 years

[Gralin]

I said our first selections not what round they where drafted.

But the round matters for perspective. If that list was our last 10 first round selections it paints a different picture.

Howe - fail
O'Brien - fail
Hartung - fail
Burton - should pass
Lovell - (a few selections later) - fail
Hill - No longer with us
Schoey - Fail (premierships have nothing to do whether you're a good draft selection or not, plenty of average footballers get flags)
Grimley - Fail
Smith - Big pass

Howe, Lovell and O'Brien are still on the list with various chances to become as you called them good AFL contributors, you've written them off before the club has moved them on, too soon. You can say looking like a fail but you can't say categorically a fail.

Hill may no longer be with us but you can't say he wasn't a pass

We can even go before 2008 if you like?

Dowler - fail
Thorp - fail
Ellis - fail
Rioli - big pass

Nice to see you doing your best to add more fails in, you added in Lovell when you said first selections each year, then you add in another with putting both Dowler and Ellis in, plus adding a few more years when you don't feel like 10 made your point well enough.

You can't say that just because a player plays in a flag it automatically makes them a great selection, if they don't play 100 games as our 1st selection in a National draft its a fail, how else can you make a case otherwise?

I didn't say that, you asked for good AFL contributors we'd picked up not great players, Schoey has played over 100 games, played in two grand finals, won one, contributed to the team. You'd like more from him but he's given the club more than a lot of higher picks have at a lot of clubs

Chris Dawes won a premiership
Sharrod Wellingham won a premiership
Trent West won a premiership
Steven Armstrong won a premiership
Matthew Bishop won a premiership
Toby Thurstan won a premiership

Are any of those good footballers?

ah the old worst player to win an AFL premiership chestnut
guess what if you are on an AFL list playing in a premiership you are a good footballer. Doesn't mean better footballers don't miss out due to injury/being on the wrong team but to make the starting 22 of a flag winner isn't something you or I could do so yes they are good footballers.

You asked for a list of our first choices over the last 10 years, I gave you them, I didn't add in any other good picks we got out of those drafts, I didn't add in any of the players we traded in that pushed some of those first selections back, I gave you your list of 10 players

From those 10 players we got so far 3 Premiership players and 589 games played, it's not a bad return from 10 picks let alone the fact that 7 of them weren't first round picks.

Now it's your turn, pick a club to compare their first selections over the last 10 years to

 

[SA HAWK]

My opinion is from 2008 our drafting has been poor, you can like it or not I couldn't give 2 shits pal.

PS. Theres plenty who agree with me

It has been overlooked because we have had success but most of the pieces of the 3peat were either already there by 2009 or traded in from other clubs.

 

[tige19]

Brown nose

We'll played sir

 

[tige19]

It has been overlooked because we have had success but most of the pieces of the 3peat were either already there by 2009 or traded in from other clubs.

I agree with you 100%

 

[Gralin]

It has been overlooked because we have had success but most of the pieces of the 3peat were either already there by 2009 or traded in from other clubs.

2008 Drafted
Schoenmakers
Shiels
Breust
Suckling

2009 Drafted
Stratton
Duryea

2010 Drafted
Smith
Puopolo
Langford

2011 Drafted
Hill

We picked up 10 premiership players over four drafts after 2008

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

Apart from the fact you are essentially whinging about not winning the draft lotto compare with other teams that have yet somehow didn’t win three premierships in the last ten years, has our first pick drafting actually been bad?
2008 pick 16, shoey (premiership player plus Breust and Sheils)
2009pick 39 Grimley (3 premiership players from that draft)
2010 pick pick 19 smith (premiership player plus poppy)
2011 pick 33 hill (premiership player)
2012 pick 28 O’Brien (current best 22 )
2013 pick 24 Hartung (also Sicily plus elevated Ceglar and Langford)
2014 pick 31 Howe
2015 pick 19 Burton (and Hardwick later)
2016 pick 74 Morrison
2017 pick 45 worpel

Apart from Grimley all of those player are/we’re best 22 and/or premiership players. Not a single pick in the top 15 let alone top 10. Is that what you are really complaining about? That we haven’t drafted anyone in the top 10 because we have either been too good or traded out our picks?

Let’s look at the players we recruited using those draft picks:
Burgoyne
Hale
Gibson
Lake
McEvoy
Frawley (free agent)
Simpkin (free agent)
^premiership players

O’Rourke
Omeara
Mitchell

Can you honestly imagine picking the same caliber of player in the draft at the same strike rate of success? That really would be winning the draft lottery!

Hey Bris one serious omission in the free agency stakes, cough excuse me a second cough $500 grand per year Vickery

 

[tige19]

Your "opinions" are never backed up by any kind of proof (mainly because there is none because if you looked into it you'd see we are actually quite good at drafting with the picks we've had which are difficult because we are successful...because we are good at drafting.)

It's the kind of thing that every other fan of every other club can see and makes us hated and envied and you go and shoot your load about us being no good - seriously go and support another club you turnip

Wow.. There's a live snowflake over here.

For the last time spud, my opinion is our drafting of our early selections since 2008 have been poor, move on.

 

[tige19]

2008 Drafted
Schoenmakers
Shiels
Breust
Suckling

2009 Drafted
Stratton
Duryea

2010 Drafted
Smith
Puopolo
Langford

2011 Drafted
Hill

We picked up 10 premiership players over four drafts after 2008

Yup, we've done well with some plucky later selections absolutely.

I'll actually pay you Schoey as well, he is no world beater but has been a solid contributor, I was harsh on him.

Langers had a great finals series, has been useless since. Doc is no good, simply lucky he has a medallion, Suckling ala Doc... Pop,Smith,Shiels,Stratts all great picks.

 

[threesixpio]

Pop,Smith,Shiels,Stratts all great picks.

Pretty sure they played in the irrelevant threepeat but

 

[killerspud]

I said our first selections not what round they where drafted.

Howe - fail
O'Brien - fail
Hartung - fail
Burton - should pass
Lovell - (a few selections later) - fail
Hill - No longer with us
Schoey - Fail (premierships have nothing to do whether you're a good draft selection or not, plenty of average footballers get flags)
Grimley - Fail
Smith - Big pass

We can even go before 2008 if you like?

Dowler - fail
Thorp - fail
Ellis - fail
Rioli - big pass

You can't say that just because a player plays in a flag it automatically makes them a great selection, if they don't play 100 games as our 1st selection in a National draft its a fail, how else can you make a case otherwise?

Chris Dawes won a premiership
Sharrod Wellingham won a premiership
Trent West won a premiership
Steven Armstrong won a premiership
Matthew Bishop won a premiership
Toby Thurstan won a premiership

Are any of those good footballers?

This is mental - again no proof just a word pull from your arse

Howe - fail - Pick 31 in a really weak draft. Better than many of the players taken before him and most taken after Heeney prob best swans academy

O'Brien - fail - Pick 28 in another exp club compromised draft Wines went 6 Viney/Daniher father son - not many others

Hartung - fail - Pick 24 - yes there were some gems later in this draft starting with Zach Merret 2 picks later but we were drafting for the best outside mid. Billy struggled to break into a team that won 3 premierships and is now finding his feet

Burton - should pass - such a clever pick - traded Anderson to North for pick 15 and got a kid who might have gone top 5 without the injury

Lovell - (a few selections later) - fail - pick 22 2015 draft - no one taken after him has done any better. Has missed an entire season with injury

Hill - No longer with us - addressed our need for speed after the 2012 GF - TRIPLE PREMIERSHIP PLAYER - THAT WOULD BIG A BIG ******* PASS

Schoey - Fail (premierships have nothing to do whether you're a good draft selection or not, plenty of average footballers get flags)
pick 16 in the 2008 draft (we won the flag that year so our first pick) looking after his pick there's not that much - Liam Shiels at 34 is an amazing pick up by us

Grimley - Fail pick 39... and yes a fail...but then we took Ben Stratton at pick 46...might you consider that a pass

Smith - Big pass

As you can see you pathetic attempt at a summary of our drafting ability misses so many points. Fails to mention the successful later picks we've had (stratton, Shiels, Hardwick, Puopolo). Fails to mention that most of the time we are entering the draft in the second or third round as we've traded picks to bring in players who fill a need.

All you want to do is shout your mouth off about how bad we are. You are a turnip

 

[Gralin]

Yup, we've done well with some plucky later selections absolutely.

I'll actually pay you Schoey as well, he is no world beater but has been a solid contributor, I was harsh on him.

Langers had a great finals series, has been useless since. Doc is no good, simply lucky he has a medallion, Suckling ala Doc... Pop,Smith,Shiels,Stratts all great picks.

Doc and Suckling got two flags each
they were only cogs in the machine but when they play pretty much every game in flag years the earned those medals

I don't look at the success of a draft based on the first pick, but based on that draft. If you miss on your first pick but the next 2 picks turn out to be multiple premiership players was the draft really a failure when 2 out of 3 picks were winners?

No draft is a home run from first to last pick, some drafts go nowhere, clubs have bad years, talent pool is poor etc.

Again I put the round our first pick was in my original post to show where those picks were.
Now if our last four first round selections were Schoenmakers, Smith, Burton and Lovell, which they were, and we've established that Smith was a great pick and Schoenmakers was a pass then we arent doing to bad running at 50%

Burton has the change to make it 75% and at that point if we miss on Lovell, who by the time we got to pick him was really a second round pick we are doing pretty good.

Add to that none of those were early first round picks, they were all end of first round picks and it's looking even better.

 

[killerspud]

Wow.. There's a live snowflake over here.

For the last time spud, my opinion is our drafting of our early selections since 2008 have been poor, move on.

hahahah like calling me a snowflake means anything hahaha how much of a dick are you - a typical thing to say once your argument has been well and truly knocked on the head

yes they are your opinions - they are also profoundly wrong as people keep pointing out

So according to you our drafting since 2008 is poor -

...since then we have played in 6 consecutive finals series
....played in 4 grand finals
......won 3 premierships


my opinion is you know nothing about the game or how a club list works and yet you are so happy to share your thoughts on it - I kind of feel sorry for you - you've witnessed one of the great eras of football and haven't taken any of it in

 

[HODGEYROAD]

This is mental - again no proof just a word pull from your arse

Howe - fail - Pick 31 in a really weak draft. Better than many of the players taken before him and most taken after Heeney prob best swans academy

O'Brien - fail - Pick 28 in another exp club compromised draft Wines went 6 Viney/Daniher father son - not many others

Hartung - fail - Pick 24 - yes there were some gems later in this draft starting with Zach Merret 2 picks later but we were drafting for the best outside mid. Billy struggled to break into a team that won 3 premierships and is now finding his feet

Burton - should pass - such a clever pick - traded Anderson to North for pick 15 and got a kid who might have gone top 5 without the injury

Lovell - (a few selections later) - fail - pick 22 2015 draft - no one taken after him has done any better. Has missed an entire season with injury

Hill - No longer with us - addressed our need for speed after the 2012 GF - TRIPLE PREMIERSHIP PLAYER - THAT WOULD BIG A BIG ******* PASS

Schoey - Fail (premierships have nothing to do whether you're a good draft selection or not, plenty of average footballers get flags)
pick 16 in the 2008 draft (we won the flag that year so our first pick) looking after his pick there's not that much - Liam Shiels at 34 is an amazing pick up by us

Grimley - Fail pick 39... and yes a fail...but then we took Ben Stratton at pick 46...might you consider that a pass

Smith - Big pass

As you can see you pathetic attempt at a summary of our drafting ability misses so many points. Fails to mention the successful later picks we've had (stratton, Shiels, Hardwick, Puopolo). Fails to mention that most of the time we are entering the draft in the second or third round as we've traded picks to bring in players who fill a need.

All you want to do is shout your mouth off about how bad we are. You are a turnip

Shuey from WCE went 2 selections later though funny you didn't mention that, also Rory Sloane in that draft from memory.

 

[Brishawk]

Mate, you're missing my point. In previous posts I have said that we have been cunning in getting some nice later selections, I also said that we do a great job of recruiting and trading for mature aged players, just because I have bring forward facts about our poor drafting of earlyish picks we have had I get all the rose coloured brigade going berserk. Once again, I am simply talking about our early selections, nothing more, nothing less.

We have had three picks in the top 20 in the past ten years. Two premeirship players (both played 100 games and in at least two grand finals) And Ryan Burton. Please don’t claim picks in the 30s and 40s are ‘earlish’. It’s embrassing retrofitting.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

We have had three picks in the top 20 in the past ten years. Two premeirship players (both played 100 games and in at least two grand finals) And Ryan Burton. Please don’t claim picks in the 30s and 40s are ‘earlish’. It’s embrassing retrofitting.

Yeah this I agree with, given we have only had 3 top 20 selections in 10 years it's hard to judge how we fair on early selections.

 

[tige19]

hahahah like calling me a snowflake means anything hahaha how much of a dick are you - a typical thing to say once your argument has been well and truly knocked on the head

yes they are your opinions - they are also profoundly wrong as people keep pointing out

So according to you our drafting since 2008 is poor -

...since then we have played in 6 consecutive finals series
....played in 4 grand finals
......won 3 premierships


my opinion is you know nothing about the game or how a club list works and yet you are so happy to share your thoughts on it - I kind of feel sorry for you - you've witnessed one of the great eras of football and haven't taken any of it in

Our opinions are different, I respect that you feel we draft brilliantly but again I disagree that when we've had earlyish selections we've done well. Our 1st selections at the draft have been poor, you may think otherwise, frankly I don't care.

 

[tige19]

We have had three picks in the top 20 in the past ten years. Two premeirship players (both played 100 games and in at least two grand finals) And Ryan Burton. Please don’t claim picks in the 30s and 40s are ‘earlish’. It’s embrassing retrofitting.

The draft is hit and miss, we've missed quite a few but have been extremely successful in other areas (trade and FA).

 

[tige19]

Yeah this I agree with, given we have only had 3 top 20 selections in 10 years it's hard to judge how we fair on early selections.

We've traded out of the draft

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

I've grown up in a family that has produced three league best and fairest players, hang on lost count that's four and five members of my family that have won club b&f's so that's team bumps and grins, I'm part of team bumps and grins, team bumps and grins have been very successful as footballers so does that make me any good? Nah I was the Greg Madigan of the 80's.
Come on guys this was about 1st round or 1st selections, it subjective and now has morphed into debate over threepeat players, in my humble opinion every premiership team has had at least one player that was at best ordinary again subjective
Personally don't think we need people acting like protectors of some sacred realm because they disagree with a post.
Anyway we've all been there done that.

 

[killerspud]

Shuey from WCE went 2 selections later though funny you didn't mention that, also Rory Sloane in that draft from memory.

From memory with the 2008 grand final over and Croad retiring it meant our key defenders stock was

Gilham

that is all - this was the problem that we had to fix and we were after the best defender possible. From memory we were hoping that Phil Davis fell to 16 - he didn't so we went for Schoenmakers. But yeah we could have taken Shuey but would Shuey have got a game in 2009 ahead of Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Sewell, Bateman, (the following year we got Burgoyne and gave up 2 first rounders - I'd rather have Burgoyne over the past 6 years than Shuey or Sloane)

sure we could also have taken Ryder instead of Dowler Selwood instead of Thorpe - but then again 11 other teams could have taken Rioli - Franklin Tambling. No team gets it all perfect all the time or only one team would ever win flags. We won 3 flags in a row. We are on the rebuild for the next. I don't think it helps just to constantly criticize the club like you and esp Tige19 do - its like you are trolling your own team and supporters for the sake of being *******s

 

[MacMace]

This is mental - again no proof just a word pull from your arse

Howe - fail - Pick 31 in a really weak draft. Better than many of the players taken before him and most taken after Heeney prob best swans academy

O'Brien - fail - Pick 28 in another exp club compromised draft Wines went 6 Viney/Daniher father son - not many others

Hartung - fail - Pick 24 - yes there were some gems later in this draft starting with Zach Merret 2 picks later but we were drafting for the best outside mid. Billy struggled to break into a team that won 3 premierships and is now finding his feet

Burton - should pass - such a clever pick - traded Anderson to North for pick 15 and got a kid who might have gone top 5 without the injury

Lovell - (a few selections later) - fail - pick 22 2015 draft - no one taken after him has done any better. Has missed an entire season with injury

Hill - No longer with us - addressed our need for speed after the 2012 GF - TRIPLE PREMIERSHIP PLAYER - THAT WOULD BIG A BIG ******* PASS

Schoey - Fail (premierships have nothing to do whether you're a good draft selection or not, plenty of average footballers get flags)
pick 16 in the 2008 draft (we won the flag that year so our first pick) looking after his pick there's not that much - Liam Shiels at 34 is an amazing pick up by us

Grimley - Fail pick 39... and yes a fail...but then we took Ben Stratton at pick 46...might you consider that a pass

Smith - Big pass

As you can see you pathetic attempt at a summary of our drafting ability misses so many points. Fails to mention the successful later picks we've had (stratton, Shiels, Hardwick, Puopolo). Fails to mention that most of the time we are entering the draft in the second or third round as we've traded picks to bring in players who fill a need.

All you want to do is shout your mouth off about how bad we are. You are a turnip

What seems to get lost on many is the fact that we haven't been able to compete for true 1st round picks because we have been so f@#$ing good. The great players that we drafted prior to 2008 were all much higher up the draft than the players post 2008.

When you get to the end of the 1st round (maybe even after pick 10) all picks are highly speculative.

I think we have mangaged the list magnificently based on the fact that we haven't had access to top tier players due to our success. We have recognised that picks outside the top 10 in recent drafts have been hit and miss and traded these picks for stars like ToM and JoM.

We have then used later picks to grab players like Sic, Morrison, Dimma and Worps, I really don't give a rats arse about some late 1st or 2nd round speculative picks being s**t (which happens to all clubs), I think we have done the best we can given our success and most other clubs and their supporters are envious of our success and ability to not fall off the cliff.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[wizzard400]

I'd actually argue that we've drafted quite well compared to other teams, although I'm of the opinion that people give too much focus to top draft picks. Good clubs show that you need a good balance of late and rookie picks in order to compliment your top-end talent.

As I've said in the Big Fish thread, statistically speaking, picks after the top 7 are essentially a lucky dip. So when you look at how we've drafted since not having a pick in that region we've done quite well.

 

[Manila_Hawk]

This thread should have an "Enter at own risk" rating !

 

[Brishawk]

The draft is hit and miss, we've missed quite a few but have been extremely successful in other areas (trade and FA).

In the period you refer to we drafted 10 premiership players. How is that anything but remarkable drafting considering we typically started in the 2nd or 3rd round?

 

[SA HAWK]

2008 Drafted
Schoenmakers
Shiels
Breust
Suckling

2009 Drafted
Stratton
Duryea

2010 Drafted
Smith
Puopolo
Langford

2011 Drafted
Hill

We picked up 10 premiership players over four drafts after 2008

I should have said most of the key pieces (Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Rioli, Buddy & Rough).

How many of those players you listed would have been in our best 10 -12 players in those 3 peat years?

Not all of our picks have been misses but a vast majority have.

Some of those players you listed would have to be amongst the luckiest players of all time to play in a premiership (Langford, Duryea & Shoenmakers).