Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else

[Falchoon]

Really?

Really.

Link

Burke was recruited from the Pines.
Loewe was recruited from Mount Eliza.

I think you'll find the zones shifted during the 80's with St.Kilda getting the top part of the MPNFL thanks to their connection with Moorabbin.

So the VFL acknowledged that Hawthorns zones were overly beneficial and gave some to St Kilda, is that my point or yours?

Stewie Loewe trained with Hawthorn, he's a fish Hawthorn threw back.

Relevence? Please, just give me the names of the players from the MPNFL that won flags with Hawthorn.

You'll be lucky to get 6 or 7 over the 30 years.

Dude, you're wasting my time, I've given you 8 already from the 1 season.

Because if a kid/family moved to Frankston in the Great Population Stampede of the 70's like you say, then these kids would all be around 18 in the years 1977-1986. Given a career lasts 10-12 years, a player taken at 18 in 1983 would still be playing in 1995. If he was picked up in 1985, he could still be playing in 1997.

You say below that St Kilda didn't win flags because of culture. Above, (for whatever reason I can't fathom because that's my point) you point out that our best players were from the MPNFL.

We made 3 finals series in 24 years from 1973, they were 1991- 1992 -1997 on the back of the MPNFL boys.

We got players from your MPNFL zone, we went up, you went down.

Can you tell me how many flags we won between 1992 and 1998 with all these Mornington Peninsula 'super footballers'?

Maybe you would've had you blooded any youngsters in the late eighties, you went away from what had been successful, turning to interstate recruits to keep topping up, rejecting the likes of Stewart Loewe and playing teams with an average age of 26 and a half, succession planning was arsed for instant reward.

Laurence Angwin is cream?

Angwin was considered cream on draft day, my point is you had access to the best youngsters in the land.

Half those guys aren't playing anymore.

No but the MPNFL keeps churning out the talent. What are the odds of 3 no.1 picks having come out of the same league in the last 15 years. There's been 14 no.1 Victorian draft picks in total.

Compare that list to the Geelong Falcons:.

Pretty handy list of players there.

What's the relevance there?

you're comparing the sum total of 2 clubs country zones (Geelong/Fitzroy) to a partial part of Hawthorns zone, we haven't even included Drouin/Longwarry etc in the discussion. the ABS doesn't consider that metropolitan Melbourne.

2008 AFL listed players - VCFL league of origin

Mornington Peninsula Nepean 26
West Gippsland Latrobe 15
Goulburn Valley 14
Bendigo 13
Geelong 13
Ovens & Murray 12
Ballarat 11
Bellarine 11
Murray 8
Hampden 7
Wimmera 7
Western Border 5
Colac & District 4
Ellinbank & District 4
Sunraysia 4
Tallangatta & District 4
Alberton 3
Central Highlands 3
East Gippsland 3
Heathcote & District 3
North Gippsland 3
Yarra Valley Mountain District 3
Horsham & District 2
Yarra Valley Mountain 2
Central Murray 1
Geelong & District 1
Goulbrun Valley 1
Lexton Plains 1
Mallee 1
Maryborough Castlemaine District 1
Mid Gippsland 1
North Central 1
Ovens & King 1
Sunryasia 1

Top 1 and a share in no.2

That Hawthorn culture just keeps on giving.

Maybe is just a silly little coincidence...

Speaking of coincidences, have you ever been to Gladstone Park- home of the Maddens. A Karingal boy would feel right at home. That was zoned metro btw.

Have a look at this:
MPNFL Team of the Century (VFL/AFL)

Geez, you'd think it would be full of Hawthorn guns, yet we only have 4 players that we drafted. 4 out of 22. Only four? Geez, that can't be right?

it's not right

I count 5, full back - KM, centre half back - CM, centre half forward DB, ruck rover - MT and rover LM, 5 who coincidentally all played in the same era. Looks like the start of a gun team.

Recruit a ruckman (Don Scott) and a full forward (Moncrieff) and you're 3/4 home and hosed.

Really, which ones?

Frankston/Dandenong/Springvale/Mordialloc

Culture. Plain and simple.

A few decent zone picks will fix a shitass culture

Hawthorn & Brisbane prove it.

 

[Rioli magic]

St Kilda would have won more flags than Hawthorn if it wasn't for the zones.












*special mention to Lindsay Fox, and morrabin ground staff for watering it.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Win goes to Falchoon.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

Win goes to Falchoon.

That's what they said about the Pakistanis after Day 1 Doris, notwithstanding the fact that IMHO Frankston Rover has brained him.

But I'm always up for your 'unbiased' opinion.

 

[Frankston Rover]

Really.

So the VFL acknowledged that Hawthorns zones were overly beneficial and gave some to St Kilda, is that my point or yours?

Stewie Loewe trained with Hawthorn, he's a fish Hawthorn threw back.

Haha, you really are determined to prove this 'theory' aren't you?

Dude, you're wasting my time, I've given you 8 already from the 1 season.

No you didn't. Russell Shields never won a flag.

Please, just list me the Hawthorn premiership players who were recruited from the MPNFL.

You say below that St Kilda didn't win flags because of culture. Above, (for whatever reason I can't fathom because that's my point) you point out that our best players were from the MPNFL.

We made 3 finals series in 24 years from 1973, they were 1991- 1992 -1997 on the back of the MPNFL boys.

We got players from your MPNFL zone, we went up, you went down.

But you just admitted one was a throwback. The other two, Harvey and Burke were champions but out of this so-called 'superpower area' you got two, only two, players.

What a goldmine...

The reason we went down was the age of our list and our poor coaches and culture.

Ever stopped to think that your culture dropped off when Alan Jeans left and ours suddenly went up again when he arrived????

Maybe you would've had you blooded any youngsters in the late eighties, you went away from what had been successful, turning to interstate recruits to keep topping up, rejecting the likes of Stewart Loewe and playing teams with an average age of 26 and a half, succession planning was arsed for instant reward.

But surely if this MPNFL Superfootballer Factory was pumping out Dermott Breretons, Kel Moore's and Leigh Matthews' every year like you seem to think, surely we would have blooded them?

Makes you wonder why we didn't...

Why wouldn't you play these guns - unless they weren't there.

Angwin was considered cream on draft day, my point is you had access to the best youngsters in the land.

Irrelevant. Angwin wouldn't have been drafted to Hawthorn with his attitude.

It's that culture thing again.

I'm sure he would've loved St. Kilda in the mid-80's though....

No but the MPNFL keeps churning out the talent. What are the odds of 3 no.1 picks having come out of the same league in the last 15 years. There's been 14 no.1 Victorian draft picks in total.

You are comparing drafts done in 2000 - when the population had already exploded and was established. I fail to see how this has any bearing on flags won in the mid 70's and 80's when these areas were still pasture.

Were they the best player in that draft? No.

How many flags has the Dandenong Stingrays won in the TAC Cup? Zero. Yep, zero.

Guess who has won the most TAC Cups? Calder Cannons. Fitzroy's old recruiting zone.

What's the relevance there?

you're comparing the sum total of 2 clubs country zones (Geelong/Fitzroy) to a partial part of Hawthorns zone, we haven't even included Drouin/Longwarry etc in the discussion. the ABS doesn't consider that metropolitan Melbourne.

So Drouin/Longwarry and Warragul aren't country enough for you????

Jesus man, they are still country towns now.

2008 AFL listed players - VCFL league of origin

Mornington Peninsula Nepean 26
West Gippsland Latrobe 15
Goulburn Valley 14
Bendigo 13
Geelong 13
Ovens & Murray 12
Ballarat 11
Bellarine 11
Murray 8
Hampden 7
Wimmera 7
Western Border 5
Colac & District 4
Ellinbank & District 4
Sunraysia 4
Tallangatta & District 4
Alberton 3
Central Highlands 3
East Gippsland 3
Heathcote & District 3
North Gippsland 3
Yarra Valley Mountain District 3
Horsham & District 2
Yarra Valley Mountain 2
Central Murray 1
Geelong & District 1
Goulbrun Valley 1
Lexton Plains 1
Mallee 1
Maryborough Castlemaine District 1
Mid Gippsland 1
North Central 1
Ovens & King 1
Sunryasia 1

Top 1 and a share in no.2

That Hawthorn culture just keeps on giving.

That figure is based on today's population. It's irrelevant.

it's not right

I count 5, full back - KM, centre half back - CM, centre half forward DB, ruck rover - MT and rover LM, 5 who coincidentally all played in the same era. Looks like the start of a gun team.

Recruit a ruckman (Don Scott) and a full forward (Moncrieff) and you're 3/4 home and hosed.

Jeff Dunne, Danny Frawley, Tony Lockett, Greg Burns, Graeme Gellie.

You got a full back, the best full forward in history, Dunne won a B&F as did centreman Burns and rover Gellie*. All these blokes were recruited from the Ballarat zone.

Add to that guys like Trevor Barker, Jeff Sarau, Barry Breen, Gary Colling and your side thru the 70's and 80's certainly had enough 'good players' to be competitive.

Makes you wonder why they weren't....

*Gellie did his knee but in terms of 'talent' he was obviously good enough to win a B&F.

Frankston/Dandenong/Springvale/Mordialloc

Bahaha, yeah Mordialloc, Frankston and Springvale were all Division 2 sides until the late 1970's/early 80's.

Only Dandenong was any good.

Care to name me the 'Premiership guns' we recruited from Dandenong, Mordialloc and Springvale?

A few decent zone picks will fix a shitass culture

Hawthorn & Brisbane prove it.

Luck, good management, professionalism, work ethic, culture.

These things made Hawthorn great and are completely foreign to St.Kilda. That's the difference.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

That's what they said about the Pakistanis after Day 1 Doris, notwithstanding the fact that IMHO Frankston Rover has brained him.

But I'm always up for your 'unbiased' opinion.

Nah, ref really needs to step in and stop the fight at this point.

 

[Falchoon]

Haha, you really are determined to prove this 'theory' aren't you?

Brick walls won't budge, it's the first time I can recall Doris agreeing with me

But you just admitted one was a throwback. The other two, Harvey and Burke were champions but out of this so-called 'superpower area' you got two, only two, players.

Not a bad average, how long did we have the Frankston area for? 2 of our top 6 or 7 players ever in a 5 year period.

Ever stopped to think that your culture dropped off when Alan Jeans left and ours suddenly went up again when he arrived????

Are you taking the piss now?

He finished with us in '76 and started with you in '81. we hadn't won 50% of our matches in his last 5 years. You'd won 3 of the last 10 flags when he joined.

But surely if this MPNFL Superfootballer Factory was pumping out Dermott Breretons, Kel Moore's and Leigh Matthews' every year like you seem to think, surely we would have blooded them?

Better ask your selectors that one, the football factory certainly kept producing when taken off Hawthorn

Stewie Loewe was playing seniors within a year

You are comparing drafts done in 2000 - when the population had already exploded and was established. I fail to see how this has any bearing on flags won in the mid 70's and 80's when these areas were still pasture.

my point was the Peninsula and East of Dandy were and are growth areas. Growth areas pump out the best kids. Still do.

So Drouin/Longwarry and Warragul aren't country enough for you????

What the hell are you on about

I was responding to diversionary tactic number 7.

I said the ABS doesn't count them as metro? They are most definitely country, they were in addition to your metropolitan country zone.

Care to name me the 'Premiership guns' we recruited from Dandenong, Mordialloc and Springvale?

what? the argument was a maybe on why the MPNFL don't dominate the VCFL, they sure pump out enough quality juniors. It was in reference to those not quite up to VFL standard. Maybe they took a short drive and played with the likes of Noble Park in the metro leagues or in the VAFA. They had a lot more options than those from the Hampden league to pluck an example from nowhere.

All these blokes were recruited from the Ballarat zone.

Didn't the Ballarat League almost disband in the early/mid nineties after a number of clubs folded. They were then replaced by Sunbury/Melton/Bacchus Marsh who dominated the comp for the first few years.

Hardly a hotbed of football talent coming through.

Luck, good management, professionalism, work ethic, culture.

Lucky enough to have metro growth areas zoned as country.

Biggest free kick in history

 

[Falchoon]

notwithstanding the fact that IMHO Frankston Rover has brained him.

But I'm always up for your 'unbiased' opinion.

cough

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

Lucky enough to have metro growth areas zoned as country.

Biggest free kick in history

You make this sound as if it's some sort of pointed advantage when you know full well it's not.

Your research of 2009 lists would have told you 198 players were affiliated with VCFL clubs before being drafted - that's nearly one third of AFL lists taken by 'country boys' and your 'expertise' as a demographer would tell you the population disparity has never been greater.

You would know that city & country TAC cup sides each had 18 players drafted this season, but country had 4 of the first 8 picks.

And you would know when you think of greats of the game that country boys punch well above their weight.

I'm prepared to call it even, or no advantage but your assertion that metro is better than country is quite frankly, horseshit.

 

[Frankston Rover]

So we can assume from Fal's posts:

- that aside from Brereton, Moore, Matthews, Moncrief, Mew and Tuck, no real other players of note were drafted from what is now the MPNFL. Given Moore, Matthews and Moncrief played in the 70's, Mew and Brereton in the 80's and Tuck covered both, according to Falchoon, Hawthorn's 9 flags were won thanks to 6 players over a period of 30 years. Amazing.

- that, despite the area having 3 small country competions that didn't merge until 1986 (the year zoning was abolished) these 3 small leagues provided 9 VFL flags. Unbelievable.

- that Narre Warren, Cranbourne, Langwarrin, Rosebud, Tooradin and Pines, despite not increasing in population until the mid 1970's, were actually VFL player factories and were not really country towns at all. Sensational.

- that despite having access to the Ballarat League, the most successful and well established leagues in the 1970's, St.Kilda despite gaining a 300 game full back, the greatest full forward ever and 3 other B&F winners could only manage to come last during the 1980's. Freaky. And when they do get 2 champions from our area, they still manage to win diddly squat.

- and, finally, that Hawthorn's culture of nurturing talent like Tuck (50 reserve games), DiPierdomenico (90 odd reserves games), Dunstall, Eade, Wallace, Morris, Russo, Schwab, Abbott, Robertson, Langford, Pritchard, Collins, Anderson, Wittman, Morrisey, Dear, Buckenara meant nothing and that our successes were all down to our country zone on the Peninsula.

What did you call it TWITA? Horseshit?

 

[mess]

RE:

This must be one of those threads where someone says something really dumb and gets owned for 20 or so pages before saying "sucked in, gee you guys are so gullible and insecure, man I baited you'se good and you said stuff to me what a great fishering I dunned!!"


Pass.

....any second now, Falchoon will pull the trigger.

 

[Falchoon]

You make this sound as if it's some sort of pointed advantage when you know full well it's not.

Your research of 2009 lists would have told you 198 players were affiliated with VCFL clubs before being drafted - that's nearly one third of AFL lists taken by 'country boys' and your 'expertise' as a demographer would tell you the population disparity has never been greater.

Taking out that quite a few of those boys live in the metropolitan area of course but I get your point

And you would know when you think of greats of the game that country boys punch well above their weight.

agreed

so a massive population influx into a former country area would provide the best of both worlds?

 

[Falchoon]

1.Chris Mew 230 *
2.Richard Loveridge 136 *
3.Dermott Brereton 211 *
4.Leigh Matthews 332 *
5.Michael Tuck 426 *
6.Michael McCarthy 126
7.Moncrieff 224 *
8.Moore 300 *
9.Shields 17

5 minutes later I had counted 7 stars, all at the one time, from one random sample.

Michael McCarthy was a star???? Fair dinkum...

Who are you putting him ahead of, Moncrieff?

You'll be lucky to get 6 or 7 over the 30 years.

Dude, you're wasting my time, I've given you 8 already from the 1 season.

No you didn't. Russell Shields never won a flag.

He's 9th

So we can assume from Fal's posts:

Dude, we've already established comprehension is not a strong point

- that aside from Brereton, Moore, Matthews, Moncrief, Mew and Tuck, no real other players of note were drafted from what is now the MPNFL. Given Moore, Matthews and Moncrief played in the 70's, Mew and Brereton in the 80's and Tuck covered both, according to Falchoon, Hawthorn's 9 flags were won thanks to 6 players over a period of 30 years. Amazing.

at worst you can assume a strong foundation covering all the key posts will help a lot more than it will hinder

- that, despite the area having 3 small country competions that didn't merge until 1986 (the year zoning was abolished) these 3 small leagues provided 9 VFL flags. Unbelievable.

Nice leap, the foundations were laid, did the likes ofPlatten come across to play because they looked good in Brown and yellow? or did Platten knock back Carlton because he thought he could win more at the Hawks, success breeding success.

that Narre Warren, Cranbourne, Langwarrin, Rosebud, Tooradin and Pines, despite not increasing in population until the mid 1970's, were actually VFL player factories and were not really country towns at all. Sensational.

Comprehension issues again? Didn't increase until the mid seventies? They added the population equivalent of Ballarat between 1966 & 1971 & two Ballarats between 1971 & 1976

Interesting that the Pines football club was founded in 1965, must be all that flora and fauna, where's Seaford, Keysborough, Mount Eliza?

- that despite having access to the Ballarat League, the most successful and well established leagues in the 1970's, St.Kilda despite gaining a 300 game full back, the greatest full forward ever and 3 other B&F winners could only manage to come last during the 1980's. Freaky. And when they do get 2 champions from our area, they still manage to win diddly squat.

Real successful league, was nearly dead 10 years later.

Didn't you list Jeff Sarau as an example of one of our best players?

- and, finally, that Hawthorn's culture of nurturing talent like Tuck (50 reserve games), DiPierdomenico (90 odd reserves games),

Blow me out of the water, a team with increased talent can park solid players in the reserves.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Franga fought the good fight but a true unbiased opinion (sorry TWITA, not yours) says Falchoon wins. No doubt Hawthorn has been a great club, very professional, but the facts (I believe) are that the population in its country zones doubled while it had them, while other country areas stagnated. That is a massive free kick.

 

[Frankston Rover]

1.Chris Mew 230 *
2.Richard Loveridge 136 *
3.Dermott Brereton 211 *
4.Leigh Matthews 332 *
5.Michael Tuck 426 *
6.Michael McCarthy 126
7.Moncrieff 224 *
8.Moore 300 *
9.Shields 17

So the ninth* best player we got from our massive free kick played 17 games.

*Loveridge was recruited from Scotch College. Tuck wandered into the club and played 2 years in the ressies and replaced Hudson at Full forward. I don't consider these to be MPNFL players as Berwick was SWGFL and Scotch College is in Melbourne.

at worst you can assume a strong foundation covering all the key posts will help a lot more than it will hinder

And yet when you get a full back, two rovers and the greatest full forward ever from your zone, within 5 years of each other, that's shithouse????

Please.

Nice leap, the foundations were laid, did the likes ofPlatten come across to play because they looked good in Brown and yellow? or did Platten knock back Carlton because he thought he could win more at the Hawks, success breeding success.

Irrelevant. Platten was wooed over, yes. But this has nothing to do with our MPNFL zone. Completely irrelevant

Comprehension issues again? Didn't increase until the mid seventies? They added the population equivalent of Ballarat between 1966 & 1971 & two Ballarats between 1971 & 1976

And unless families moved there with a 15yo kid, he wouldn't be old enough to be taken under zoning.

A kid born in 1970 would be only 16 when zoning was abolished.

Interesting that the Pines football club was founded in 1965, must be all that flora and fauna, where's Seaford, Keysborough, Mount Eliza?

And we drafted who from the Pines?????

Australia finishes top 10 in the Gold Medal tally at the Olymipics, despite having less people than other who finish below us.

Why is that?

Real successful league, was nearly dead 10 years later.

Was it suffering from a lack of players? Or mismanagement?

If it's related to St.Kilda, I'm backing mismanagement.

Blow me out of the water, a team with increased talent can park solid players in the reserves.

Shit, that must mean we won heaps of Reserves flags in the 60's, 70's and 80's..

Hmm, only two - 1972, 1985.

And yet Geelong won seven - 1960, 1963, 1964, 1975, 1980, 1981, 1982.

Even Melbourne won 3 - 1969, 1970, 1984.

Back to the drawing board Falchoon.

 

[Falchoon]

I don't consider these to be MPNFL players as Berwick was SWGFL and Scotch College is in Melbourne.

I'm arguing country zones in Metropolitan Melbourne - Tuck is relevant

As for Loveridge, there's a whole new can of worms. How many other country zoned players did you pinch because their parents elected to put them in Australias top private schools?

That might need some research.

Irrelevant. Platten was wooed over, yes. But this has nothing to do with our MPNFL zone. Completely irrelevant

It's relevant to the point you made

And unless families moved there with a 15yo kid, he wouldn't be old enough to be taken under zoning.

A kid born in 1970 would be only 16 when zoning was abolished.

and 15 year old kids moving in in 1965 are too old.

And we drafted who from the Pines?????

There were a lot of clubs on the peninsula formed in the 60's. Must have been high demand.

Australia finishes top 10 in the Gold Medal tally at the Olymipics, despite having less people than other who finish below us.

and countries with smaller populations than us beat us at the winter olympics

Was it suffering from a lack of players? Or mismanagement?

If it's related to St.Kilda, I'm backing mismanagement.

it must be St Kilda, you can therefore take credit for the 35 or so players currently running around from the MPNFL and half of the SWGFL.

Even Melbourne won 3 - 1969, 1970, 1984.

That obviously points to something dirfferent than depth of talent.

 

[Mcchawk]

I'll save you time Franga

Falchoon had St.Kilda got all of these players anyway. they wouldn't have won one flag as you didn't bring on younger players ever. You had a rep for a long time that when a young Saint left he became a star at another club.

Harsh but true

 

[Falchoon]

I'll save you time Franga

Falchoon had St.Kilda got all of these players anyway. they wouldn't have won one flag as you didn't bring on younger players ever. You had a rep for a long time that when a young Saint left he became a star at another club.

Harsh but true

Never ever.

Forgive me for sounding like a Collingwood supporter and responding to obvious diversionary tactics but didn't the '66 flag have 11/20 players aged 22 and under.

 

[Frankston Rover]

Falc, mate you still haven't convinced me.

Even with Loveridge and Shields, you've got 9 players, NINE, that supposedly won 9 flags singlehandedly.

I'm really struggling to see how these players, given this is the best you can come up with, can really be that good....

When you consider players such as:

Hudson
Dunstall
Ayres
Knights
Platten
DiPierdomenico
Kennedy
Hall
P. Dear
G. Dear
Collins
Morrisey
Wittman
Gowers
Jencke
Condon
Paton
Hendrie
Robertson
Scott
Crimmins
Polkinghorne
Rowlings
Geoff Ablett
O'Halloran
Martello
Goad

also played their part.

Give me something convincing Falc, instead of demographic statistics, opinion and heresay.

To me, you just sound bitter that we made our zone work while your club completely ****ed it up.

 

[mess]

Falc, mate you still haven't convinced me.

Even with Loveridge and Shields, you've got 9 players, NINE, that supposedly won 9 flags singlehandedly.

I'm really struggling to see how these players, given this is the best you can come up with, can really be that good....

When you consider players such as:

Hudson
Dunstall
Ayres
Knights
Platten
DiPierdomenico
Kennedy
Hall
P. Dear
G. Dear
Collins
Morrisey
Wittman
Gowers
Jencke
Condon
Paton
Hendrie
Robertson
Scott
Crimmins
Polkinghorne
Rowlings
Geoff Ablett
O'Halloran
Martello
Goad

also played their part.

You're overlooking the fact that the above players only joined Hawthorn in the first place because they knew we had Loveridge and them in the team.

 

[Falchoon]

Falc, mate you still haven't convinced me.

Even with Loveridge and Shields, you've got 9 players, NINE, that supposedly won 9 flags singlehandedly.

I'm not doing a thesis on the subject, I pulled one team out randomly and Bob's your Uncle. If I ever do my doctorate I'll let you know.

To me, you just sound bitter that we made our zone work while your club completely ****ed it up.

Let's be honest, I couldn't give a flying frog who won in 1977 or whatever (though I wouldn't have minded grabbing something from about 1990 on) given that I essentially picked my team due to their underdog status. A newbie to Melbourne it was Carlton, Richmond or St Kilda c.1983

I just can't believe those who handed out the country zones could be so naive that one particular zone had more than doubled it's population within 10-15 years whilst most others remained stagnant. It beggars belief.

Whether you and your Hawthorn buddies believe or not that it took a perennial struggler to powerhouse during it's time and then back to average upon its completion, or that its the work of coincidence is probably a view you're never going to change. The odd neutral might take in some food for thought though.

BTW I also hold a similar theory on Brisbanes zone picks, and trust me, they didn't stop the Saints winning any flags.

I also hold a theory on 25-40 year old males barracking for Hawthorn so I can see why some may get defensive

There are obviously a few other people who sounded bitter about their club ****ing up their zones, I particularly love this one, a review by Richard Stremski of the Hawthorn book "The Hard Way"

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingTraditions/1991/st0702/st0702n.pdf

I'll leave my closing remarks to the great Tommy Hafey

http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/rrc/inquiries/footy/transcripts/hafey31-05-04.pdf

 

[Frankston Rover]

Very interesting reading, especially Tommy Hafey - I agree with pretty much all of it but he too sounds bitter that we got a 'country' zone close to Melbourne and Richmond didn't. I'm a bit disappointed in Hafey in that I thought he was all about work ethic. But hey, Richmond in the 70's and early 80's thought they were God's gift. Richmond were so powerful they thought they deserved special dispensation because they were so good.

Every club gets its pride hurt when they don't win.

As for the 'review', what does Dick Stremski expect from what is essentially a Hawthorn Autobiography? Once again, the names Mew, Moore, Tuck, Matthews and Brereton appear but he has also included the names Ayres, Knights and the Abletts.

Ayres was from Warragul, Knights was from Longwarry and the Ablett's were from Drouin. They were, and still are, country towns. Yes, they are closer to Melbourne than Finley but, essentially, they are country towns. The population of Longwarry would not have doubled in a long time. Sometimes luck plays a huge part.

The other part that made me laugh was the not-so-subtle stab at our record before 1961 and our success after zoning was introduced.

Our club was formed in 1902. By 1925 we were in the premier competition in the country due mainly to our location rather than our deeds on the field. We never won a VFA premiership and didn't play finals for 30 years due mainly to our inability to pay players what the bigger clubs were able to do.

Guys like Cazaly, Jack Hale, Kennedy Snr, Brendan Edwards, Sandy Ferguson - they changed the culture of the club in the early 60's. Kennedy carried these values through with him until he left in '76. Parkin, our next premiership coach, played under Kennedy his whole career. The culture of the place had changed.

Nobody complains about the 4 flags Collingwood won in the late 20's. Why is that? They had more money, better connections and a hell of a lot more pull than Hawthorn did. Are they 'tainted' flags? Essendon won flags in 62, 65, 84 and 85 - right in the heart of the zoning era - why are they not under scrutiny? Why should they be...

Why no inquiry into North Melbourne, who had won nothing in 50 years but in the middle of the zone era, won 2 flags.

Hafey says Carlton and Hawthorn won 13 of 22 flags during the zoning era.

Carlton won two flags in 1968 and 70. Zoning had only been in 2-3 years.

But finally: From the mid 60s, Essendon, Geelong, Carlton and Collingwood dominated the competition because their greater wealth allowed them to monopolise top country players and build up greater playing strength than possible beforehand. Other clubs, such as Fitzroy, were in grave danger of folding. Link

Every era has had it's question marks. Some clubs flourish, others don't. Hawthorn started up a coterie group in the late 70's. These funded many of our interstate players such as Buckenara and Platten. Carlton spent a reported $1m on players in 86/87 which got them a flag.

To say that nine of our flags were a result of zoning and nothing else is not only wrong, it is an insult to the work done by many people at our club over a long period of time. It also highlights the petulance of guys like Hafey who, because their team didn't keep winning, felt they had to blame something. After all, Tommy Hafey would never say he was a shit coach, now would he? And yet, just like Tony Jewell, once they left Richmond, their records were ordinary to say the least.

Must have been all that driving to Mildura...

 

[Falchoon]

Very interesting reading, especially Tommy Hafey - I agree with pretty much all of it but he too sounds bitter that we got a 'country' zone close to Melbourne and Richmond didn't.

It's an interesting point about zones initially being designed to be rotated every 3 then 5 years.

Ayres was from Warragul, Knights was from Longwarry and the Ablett's were from Drouin. They were, and still are, country towns.

I don't think their is any question on their country aspect, having them in addition to the peninsula region is the issue. Having 3 times as many 16-20 year ols boys as Collingwood is at the heart of the demographics argument.

The other part that made me laugh was the not-so-subtle stab at our record before 1961 and our success after zoning was introduced.
Our club was formed in 1902. By 1925 we were in the premier competition in the country due mainly to our location rather than our deeds on the field. We never won a VFA premiership and didn't play finals for 30 years due mainly to our inability to pay players what the bigger clubs were able to do.

Guys like Cazaly, Jack Hale, Kennedy Snr, Brendan Edwards, Sandy Ferguson - they changed the culture of the club in the early 60's. Kennedy carried these values through with him until he left in '76. Parkin, our next premiership coach, played under Kennedy his whole career. The culture of the place had changed.

Theirs no doubt Hawthorn were becoming more competitive after an unfair introduction. You could say the same of the Doggies or St Kilda

Nobody complains about the 4 flags Collingwood won in the late 20's. Why is that?

Out of sight out of mind, though I have heard many a time of Collingwood basically being funded by 1 man not altogether fairly.

On the flip side people complain about Brisbanes zone pick inspired domination, even Geelong get question marks over their father/son advantages.

Are they 'tainted' flags? Essendon won flags in 62, 65, 84 and 85 - right in the heart of the zoning era - why are they not under scrutiny? Why should they be...

I was under the impression metro zones were moved to accommodate demographic changes?

Why no inquiry into North Melbourne, who had won nothing in 50 years but in the middle of the zone era, won 2 flags.

10 year rule? A rule open to all?

But finally: From the mid 60s, Essendon, Geelong, Carlton and Collingwood dominated the competition because their greater wealth allowed them to monopolise top country players and build up greater playing strength than possible beforehand. Other clubs, such as Fitzroy, were in grave danger of folding. Link

There's no doubt country zoning was brought in to fix wealth imbalance and to save the clubs from themselves, whether it did it the right way or not is certainly up for debate.

 

[Frankston Rover]

So where does that leave us?

Is this a first on Bay 13?

 

[mianfei]

History of player recruitment, transfer and payment rules in the victorian and australian football league

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/ASSH Bulletins/No 26/ASSHBulletin26e.pdf

Above is PDF, here is the Wiki extract.

The VFL's response was to zone rural Victoria and the Riverina of New South Wales in a similar manner to metropolitan Melbourne. Because of the sparseness of Australia's rural population, the country zones related not to the player's address, but rather to the league in which he played. This difference was a critical component of the failure of country zoning, because it made zone boundaries impossible to adjust.

Because the VFL was aware that discrepancies existed in the strength of zones, it was originally planned that the zones would be rotated so that each club would obtain a chance of receiving the best young country players. However - partly because those clubs with productive zones were naturally unwilling to give them up for less productive ones - the zones remained the same from the inception of country zoning until it was abolished. There was also no provision for demographic changes which occurred in the various country zones, which exacerbated the problems mentioned above.

It was me who wrote this extract, and I have come to the realisation that Hawthorn's premiership tally was clearly the result of a flawed country zoning system. A good comparison would be Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen's dominance of Queensland politics in the same period: both were due to zoning systems that served to ensure their success through giving them unfair access - in the National Party's case to parliamentary seats, and in Hawthorn's to young footballers. Just as seats in the National heartland were allowed to have enrolments half those of Brisbane-based (Labor or Liberal) seats, Hawthorn's country zone had something like five times as many potential VFL footballers as those of Melbourne or Gellong or South Melbourne.

By definition, then, country zoning was a gerrymander in exactly the same way many Australian electoral systems were: it had boundaries drawn to favour some clubs over others. If rotating zones was impossible, the VFL could have split Hawthorn's zone into two. Melbourne, impoverished and tied to the bottom of the ladder under country zoning, could have been given the eastern half. (In this context, I will as why the Yarra Valley region, contiguous with Melbourne's country zone, wasn't part thereof rather than being seen as "metropolitan" when it was much less so than the Frankston/Peninsula region??).

In such circumstances, Hawthorn did not have to have a huge following or wonderful administration to win flags. More than that, the noncombative, accepting-of-defeat culture of most of eastern and outer suburban Melbourne disappeared from Hawthorn through recruits from its country zone.

In fact, if one looks at the histories of Hawthorn and St. Kilda, the two clubs adversely affected by the culture of noncombative marianismo so prevalent in eastern and outer-suburban Melbourne, one sees that almost all their success has been heavily dependent on players from the Peninsula region. In a 1987 Age article, St. Kilda insiders admitted that the loss of players from the Peninsula resulting from country zoning was a major factor in St. Kilda's return to the bottom of the ladder (a position it and Hawthorn monopolised between 1941 and 1955).

At times, when I think of this, one can almost believe that the VFL was mistaken in many respects when dealing with the whole area east and south of the Yarra, at least from the time Hawthorn were originally admitted. Hawthorn's admission was favoured because it would cost existing clubs less than that of Footscray or North Melbourne or Prahran, but the VFL had no knowledge of how the culture of the eastern side of the city would ensure Hawthorn won only 111 of its first 522 VFL games. One can perhaps see similar misjudgments in the location of VFL Park and (to a much lesser extent) the movement of St. kilda to Moorabbin. In both cases, I feel that a better location would, as the histories of Hawthorn and St. Kilda show, much further south and nearer to Port Phillip Bay, where both transport and demand for footy would have been higher.