Strategy Head Coach: John Longmire - Part III

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The Gong

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Well I'm not filled with the bright eyed optimism I was at the start of the season. We seem to have taken two steps backward this year on what was a pretty mediocre year last. However, I'm not going to sit here and say that Longmire has no clue because he's a pretty astute coach. He knows what does and doesn't win games of footy. He can do so much and then its up to players and they are simply not getting the job done at the moment. I watched his presser after the Richmond loss and you can sense his frustration when the plyers are not following instructions, making basic mistakes and not applying the required pressure. The coaching staff knew exactly what Richmond would bring, what the Swans players had to do to combat it and it sounds like it was drummed into those players. They just didn't do it.

Now its easy to say it all starts and ends with the coach but the players need to be accountable for the their own performance and that also rests on the shoulders of the leadership group. People keep on banging on about the "game plan" but that doesn't account for poor defensive pressure and constant errors and turnovers. "Isn't that the coach's responsibility?" I hear you cry. Yes but if you think they aren't constantly working on defensive pressure and ball skills then what the hell do you think they do all week? Of course they bloody do but the players are failing the test right now when in a game situation.

Many seem to think that coaches have this god-like power over how the players do or don't perform on the field but seem to attribute no responsibility to the players themselves. Clarkson himself has stated on numerous occasions what little impact the coach has on gameday. Some days the players get it right and some days they don't. The coach can give them a spray or an inspirational speech but in the end he's not out there on the field.

We're basically in a mini re-build and have been for some time. We have a lot of young players with a distinct lack of experience, hence the basic skill errors and the inability to consistently adhere to the gameplan. We're used to a very well oiled machine if a defensively minded one but we look anything but that at the moment. We'll take a dip this year and we need a few more a-graders in the team to compete and help bring the young players on. Burning Horse at the stake is not going to be some magic tonic for our woes. I fear some might get want they want and then find the grass isn't greener.
 
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Bloodied52

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Well I'm not filled with the bright eyed optimism I was at the start of the season. We seem to have taken two steps backward this year on what was a pretty mediocre year last. However, I'm not going to sit here and say that Longmire has no clue because he's a pretty astute coach. He knows what does and doesn't win games of footy. He can do so much and then its up to players and they are simply not getting the job done at the moment. I watched his presser after the Richmond loss and you can sense his frustration when the plyers are not following instructions, making basic mistakes and not applying the required pressure. The coaching staff knew exactly what Richmond would bring, what the Swans players had to do to combat it and it sounds like it was drummed into those players. They just didn't do it.

Now its easy to say it all starts and ends with the coach but the players need to be accountable for the their own performance and that also rests on the shoulders of the leadership group. People keep on banging on about the "game plan" but that doesn't account for poor defensive pressure and constant errors and turnovers. "Isn't that the coach's responsibility?" I hear you cry. Yes but if you think they aren't constantly working on defensive pressure and ball skills then what the hell do you think they do all week? Of course they bloody do but the players are failing the test right now when in a game situation.

Many seem to think that coaches have this god-like power over how the players do or don't perform on the field but seem to attribute no responsibility to the players themselves. Clarkson himself has stated on numerous occasions what little impact the coach has on gameday. Some days the players get it right and some days they don't. The coach can give them a spray or an inspirational speech but in the end he's not out there on the field.

We're basically in a mini re-build and have been for some time. We have a lot of young players with a distinct lack of experience, hence the basic skill errors and the inability to consistently adhere to the gameplan. We're used to a very well oiled machine if a defensively minded one but we look anything but that at the moment. We'll take a dip this year and we need a few more a-graders in the team to compete and help bring the young players on. Burning Horse at the stake is not going to be some magic tonic for our woes. I fear some might get want they want and then find the grass isn't greener.
There is a drought. Horse used what remained of the grass. Climate change-bad, coach change-good.

Of course our coach next year has to deal with a demoralised list. The upside is the old lags who acted as on field Coach Nego enforcers will have gone. A couple of years regrouping and we contend again.
 

The Gong

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There is a drought. Horse used what remained of the grass. Climate change-bad, coach change-good.

Of course our coach next year has to deal with a demoralised list. The upside is the old lags who acted as on field Coach Nego enforcers will have gone. A couple of years regrouping and we contend again.
Thanks for illustrating my point
 
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Well I'm not filled with the bright eyed optimism I was at the start of the season. We seem to have taken two steps backward this year on what was a pretty mediocre year last. However, I'm not going to sit here and say that Longmire has no clue because he's a pretty astute coach. He knows what does and doesn't win games of footy. He can do so much and then its up to players and they are simply not getting the job done at the moment. I watched his presser after the Richmond loss and you can sense his frustration when the plyers are not following instructions, making basic mistakes and not applying the required pressure. The coaching staff knew exactly what Richmond would bring, what the Swans players had to do to combat it and it sounds like it was drummed into those players. They just didn't do it.

Now its easy to say it all starts and ends with the coach but the players need to be accountable for the their own performance and that also rests on the shoulders of the leadership group. People keep on banging on about the "game plan" but that doesn't account for poor defensive pressure and constant errors and turnovers. "Isn't that the coach's responsibility?" I hear you cry. Yes but if you think they aren't constantly working on defensive pressure and ball skills then what the hell do you think they do all week? Of course they bloody do but the players are failing the test right now when in a game situation.

Many seem to think that coaches have this god-like power over how the players do or don't perform on the field but seem to attribute no responsibility to the players themselves. Clarkson himself has stated on numerous occasions what little impact the coach has on gameday. Some days the players get it right and some days they don't. The coach can give them a spray or an inspirational speech but in the end he's not out there on the field.

We're basically in a mini re-build and have been for some time. We have a lot of young players with a distinct lack of experience, hence the basic skill errors and the inability to consistently adhere to the gameplan. We're used to a very well oiled machine if a defensively minded one but we look anything but that at the moment. We'll take a dip this year and we need a few more a-graders in the team to compete and help bring the young players on. Burning Horse at the stake is not going to be some magic tonic for our woes. I fear some might get want they want and then find the grass isn't greener.
Excuse me you're not allowed to speak logic on here. Coaches are Gods! They control everything, and doesn't matter if they're the most successful of those Gods, if they can't make finals in any given year they must be culled for 'not adjusting to the times'. They are also allowed to go from shit coaches over mnay years to 'geniuses' within a single year! It has nothing to do with the players out there, you can put our grandmothers out there, a good coach will win them the game! We need Brad Scott! a change of direction will give us immediate success!

What 99% of this board and supporters in general prove with their simplistic logic, is exactly why only 1% of the population are the only ones actually capable of coaching. It is the difference between the rubbish logic of someone behind a keyboard, vs someone who has experienced the game and is actually doing it.

As someone who has played football at a decent level, i can tell you that the second the ball is in a players hands, the last thing on their mind is what the coach wants. The coach has shit all to do with game day. The only area they have a big affect on is morale and motivation. If players have shit skills and lack natural footy smarts, then the team is a write off. Other than Clarkson, not a single coach in past 2 decades has more credibility than Horse. So if you want him out for a russian roulette roll of the dice on an untried coach, then i'm sorry but you're cooked. Then again Hawthorn aren't doing too well now, Clarko must be a shit coach aswell then aye.
 
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An attempt to do this more positively.........

Lloyd doesn't have great depth to his kicking, but he is very accurate (odd clanger aside). The move of Dawson to half back showed signs of what might be to come and what Longmire is looking for. But he also clanged one which hurt. Lloyd chips because there aren't options up the field. Now that is either work rate of the mids or it is the opposition keeping players in defence. That means we have to work the ball forward. It wasn't long ago we were complaining about bombing it.

Reid and Sinclair are out of marking form at the moment. Buddy has never been much of a mark. Should our targets be Cameron and McCartin? Maybe. But I don't think we're there yet. And Reid offers a bit at ground level, although I didn't see much of that against Richmond. Our mids have always worked back, which has been a big key to our success. For them to be able to work forward as well, they do need a bit of a chop out. Now that comes either with favourable ruckwork, and/or marks sticking up forward. Reid marks and the mids can stop running forward. They save a 200m sprint each time we take a mark up forward. Naismith rucks and we don't get smashed in stoppages by Gawn. And that saves mids legs as well (especially after a 5 day break).

We sit 13th for marks inside 50 and 15th for hit outs. Oddly, we're 4th for contested marks but I'd say that's people like Heeney up on the wing. We loved Sinclair last year but he's not been in form yet this year. 2 or 3 contested marks from him will make a world of difference. Reid finds his mojo up forward and that will make a world of difference too. Naismith giving us some ascendancy in the ruck will make a world of difference. Suddenly our mids won't look so knackered, Heeney won't need to spend so much time forward. If Grundy and Melican can find form and return from injury Mills won't be needed in defence and Allir can be more attacking.

But it's never one single reason. To counter my argument about rucks, Collingwood are going ok, Grundy is right up their for hit outs, but their clearance numbers are shocking. They must be doing other things well to make up for it.

We kick accurately for goal against Melbourne early and we win. Surely our game plan is to kick accurately, especially after a short break.
We get a decent run from the umps against Adelaide and we win. Yes, we have to factor in those uncontrollables but that was ridiculous.
We field kick accurately against Richmond and we win. Our game plan surely involves not turning the ball over.

None of these are the same. And none of them are issues of game plan. Some are experience. Some are form. Some even might be personnel management. But no coach has ever coached a half back to chip 20m sideways when there's a loose option at centre half forward.
 
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Excuse me you're not allowed to speak logic on here. Coaches are Gods! They control everything, and doesn't matter if they're the most successful of those Gods, if they can't make finals in any given year they must be culled for 'not adjusting to the times'. They are also allowed to go from shit coaches over mnay years to 'geniuses' within a single year! It has nothing to do with the players out there, you can put our grandmothers out there, a good coach will win them the game! We need Brad Scott! a change of direction will give us immediate success!

What 99% of this board and supporters in general prove with their simplistic logic, is exactly why only 1% of the population are the only ones actually capable of coaching. It is the difference between the rubbish logic of someone behind a keyboard, vs someone who has experienced the game and is actually doing it.

As someone who has played football at a decent level, i can tell you that the second the ball is in a players hands, the last thing on their mind is what the coach wants. The coach has shit all to do with game day. The only area they have a big affect on is morale and motivation. If players have shit skills and lack natural footy smarts, then the team is a write off. Other than Clarkson, not a single coach in past 2 decades has more credibility than Horse. So if you want him out for a russian roulette roll of the dice on an untried coach, then i'm sorry but you're cooked. Then again Hawthorn aren't doing too well now, Clarko must be a shit coach aswell then aye.
So why do we bother paying Longmire $800k per year, wouldn't it be prudent to let him walk to the Roos, install in a rookie coach and save the club $500k a year? It won't make any difference on game day :think:
 

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The Gong

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Excuse me you're not allowed to speak logic on here. Coaches are Gods! They control everything, and doesn't matter if they're the most successful of those Gods, if they can't make finals in any given year they must be culled for 'not adjusting to the times'. They are also allowed to go from shit coaches over mnay years to 'geniuses' within a single year! It has nothing to do with the players out there, you can put our grandmothers out there, a good coach will win them the game! We need Brad Scott! a change of direction will give us immediate success!

What 99% of this board and supporters in general prove with their simplistic logic, is exactly why only 1% of the population are the only ones actually capable of coaching. It is the difference between the rubbish logic of someone behind a keyboard, vs someone who has experienced the game and is actually doing it.

As someone who has played football at a decent level, i can tell you that the second the ball is in a players hands, the last thing on their mind is what the coach wants. The coach has shit all to do with game day. The only area they have a big affect on is morale and motivation. If players have shit skills and lack natural footy smarts, then the team is a write off. Other than Clarkson, not a single coach in past 2 decades has more credibility than Horse. So if you want him out for a russian roulette roll of the dice on an untried coach, then i'm sorry but you're cooked. Then again Hawthorn aren't doing too well now, Clarko must be a shit coach aswell then aye.
Agree on most of this but above morale and motivation the coach is there to build a winning system, get the right cattle to be able execute that system and make sure the players do execute on a regular basis. There's a heap of different factors that will affect him in being able to do that and the skill and natural footy smarts of the players is a big one.

I get your comment about a player's thoughts with ball in hand. I've played and coached so I see it from both sides. As a player you sometimes have a millisecond to make a decision and you're not thinking about team structure when some bloke is about to take your head off. As a coach you still analyse those moments over and over and wonder why they didn't do what we practiced a hundred times. Having said that, in most other situations the players should be thinking about exactly what the coach wants them to do and you need your teammates to do the same so you can execute a plan.
 
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Excuse me you're not allowed to speak logic on here. Coaches are Gods! They control everything, and doesn't matter if they're the most successful of those Gods, if they can't make finals in any given year they must be culled for 'not adjusting to the times'. They are also allowed to go from shit coaches over mnay years to 'geniuses' within a single year! It has nothing to do with the players out there, you can put our grandmothers out there, a good coach will win them the game! We need Brad Scott! a change of direction will give us immediate success!

What 99% of this board and supporters in general prove with their simplistic logic, is exactly why only 1% of the population are the only ones actually capable of coaching. It is the difference between the rubbish logic of someone behind a keyboard, vs someone who has experienced the game and is actually doing it.

As someone who has played football at a decent level, i can tell you that the second the ball is in a players hands, the last thing on their mind is what the coach wants. The coach has shit all to do with game day. The only area they have a big affect on is morale and motivation. If players have shit skills and lack natural footy smarts, then the team is a write off. Other than Clarkson, not a single coach in past 2 decades has more credibility than Horse. So if you want him out for a russian roulette roll of the dice on an untried coach, then i'm sorry but you're cooked. Then again Hawthorn aren't doing too well now, Clarko must be a shit coach aswell then aye.

I always enjoy the Longmire support posts that take the intellectual high ground. It’s that or bring up the hawks coach for some reason
Well done, hopefully we can reach your level one day I guess.

I say we certainly cut the coaches salary and footy department spending then from the 10s of millions, what a waste of money
 
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So why do we bother paying Longmire $800k per year, wouldn't it be prudent to let him walk to the Roos, install in a rookie coach and save the club $500k a year? It won't make any difference on game day :think:

Why does everyone here hate the players so much, happy to throw them all under the bus and praise the coach , ouch, naughty fans I say
 

The Gong

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How long in general should one coach be in an AFL role , generally speaking as a rule of thumb

When does the voice become stale?
Is there a used by date? I did like the Paul Roos rule of not hanging around too long.

We're on the decline so people want a quick fix to get us rebounding back up the table. Easier to sack the coach than have to wait 3 - 5 years for your youth to develop and trade some experience in. Problem is it doesn't always go to plan.
 

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I always enjoy the Longmire support posts that take the intellectual high ground.
I think it's more tiring of oversimplification of what's happening and having the same group of posters infect every thread with the same complaints, (which often contradict each other) which they can't really base on anything except their feelings.

Case in point, the same complaint that the game plan hasn't and isn't changing despite even the most basic look at player position changes, ball movement or recruitment over the last few years can tell you it isn't true.
 
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Is there a used by date? I did like the Paul Roos rule of not hanging around too long.

We're on the decline so people want a quick fix to get us rebounding back up the table. Easier to sack the coach than have to wait 3 - 5 years for your youth to develop and trade some experience in. Problem is it doesn't always go to plan.

Don’t know the answer or even if it’s a valid question

I think there’s an end point in leadership roles generally
 

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Don’t know the answer or even if it’s a valid question

I think there’s an end point in leadership roles generally
I agree. Unless that leader is truly able to reinvent themselves then they need to move on before they overstay their effectiveness. I actually thought that Longmire might follow Roos and move on earlier than he has but he produced a very successful period and I think it became a case of, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
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