Autopsy Heartbreaking loss to St Kilda

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TheMcManusNose

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I liked Silva and thought he didn't really get much of a fair run when he was available. As a tall defender, he was alway behind McPharlin and Johnson and I would say behind Pearce A as well. I still had him in front of Dawson as he was much more versatile.

That said, he was injury prone and sometimes made poor choices on field that led to suspensions, so it wasn't all one way traffic with him. I see him the way I see Barlow, not the best player we had but more than useful and could have been retained. He wasn't, so its all water under the bridge now

Yes absolutely. No where am I saying he was a bad KPD. He was just simply not as good as others we had or injured for the majority of the time. Similar to Suban/Barlow, I imagine he would still be here if the relative contract lengths were reversed.

You obviously missed the part where I said we could have played Silvagni in defense and one of our other defenders (Johnson, McPharlin, Dawson, take your pick) in the forward line.

What we did instead was left him in the reserves and played an extra midfielder behind the ball and went without a proper forward line.

Didn't work then. Still doesn't work now.

No I didn't miss it. I don't think it's really worth consideration. Moving McPharlin out given his clear superiority to everyone down back would have been farcical. Ditto Johnno when he is the best distributor we really had over that period. Dawson as a KPF I think speaks for itself as an option.

I agree with you where you say we need to pick the KPFs we have and back them in (too an extent, I don't think it makes them immune from dropping after a really truly awful spell). I completely disagree when you start positing guys who are reasonable KPDs as solutions to move other, better, KPDs forward. Especially when you start talking about how this could have been the solution to all our problems when the various experiments we did try actually weren't. Even more so when it is going into the really strange notions like Macca/Johnson/Dawson as KPFs.
 

Wally Walpamur

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A carbon rod adds as much structure and presence to our forward line as Tabs. In fact, i'd be less frustrated seeing the carbon rod in our team.
 

meima

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He is average, get used to it. Not Tabs fault, he was a rookie spec draft pick for a reason. The tools he has aren't good enough and 5 years haven't improved them despite your attempt to show otherwise. He can't hold a mark at training. Cox will be our KPF , why are you not happy with that.
That is not right , I even argue with you here in training that Tab drop a few mark in training and you rubbish me off . I think there is more of structure problem , having cam mac, Kersten , Griffin and Tab playing is obviously too tall in wet weather condition .
 
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I think it's pretty sad that you enjoy getting stuck into the whipping boy more than you enjoy winning.

Shittest supporter on these boards by miles.

So if you have an opinion that doesn't suit yours the opinion is shitty. OK :rolleyes: Explain why after so many years on the list he hasn't cemented a position and a first year 18 year old shows all the tools that Tab's hasn't got and is playing seniors. I have nothing against TAB's and I hope he stays on the list as depth but he isn't the key forward saviour that you paint him out to be.
 

Wally Walpamur

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Yes absolutely. No where am I saying he was a bad KPD. He was just simply not as good as others we had or injured for the majority of the time. Similar to Suban/Barlow, I imagine he would still be here if the relative contract lengths were reversed.



No I didn't miss it. I don't think it's really worth consideration. Moving McPharlin out given his clear superiority to everyone down back would have been farcical. Ditto Johnno when he is the best distributor we really had over that period. Dawson as a KPF I think speaks for itself as an option.

I agree with you where you say we need to pick the KPFs we have and back them in (too an extent, I don't think it makes them immune from dropping after a really truly awful spell). I completely disagree when you start positing guys who are reasonable KPDs as solutions to move other, better, KPDs forward. Especially when you start talking about how this could have been the solution to all our problems when the various experiments we did try actually weren't. Even more so when it is going into the really strange notions like Macca/Johnson/Dawson as KPFs.
Richmond should try Rance up forward with Riewoldt cos they're a tall player short :rolleyes:
 
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That is not right , I even argue with you here in training that Tab drop a few mark in training and you rubbish me off . I think there is more of structure problem , having cam mac, Kersten , Griffin and Tab playing is obviously too tall in wet weather condition .

Don't follow what you're on about.
 
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So if you have an opinion that doesn't suit yours the opinion is shitty. OK :rolleyes: Explain why after so many years on the list he hasn't cemented a position and a first year 18 year old shows all the tools that Tab's hasn't got and is playing seniors. I have nothing against TAB's and I hope he stays on the list as depth but he isn't the key forward saviour that you paint him out to be.

He was never going to a "THE" key forward but he's better than most give him credit for.

He gets paid out on by many on here but was our leading contested mark for the last 2 years we had Pav, so he has got something. He's an accurate kick as well.

Where he 'could' have shown more, in my view, was having his lead honoured and often they were n ot. Delivery into out forward 50 is utterly shite as well so that was never going to help. Structurally he should be in in place of either McCarthy or Kersten because he's a different type of forward and attracts a decent defender if nothing else.

I think you need to lower what you measure him by and he just isn't Pav.

To those who say he's not showing enough at Peel, I beg to differ but he's also learning a new role as forward and backup ruck. Doing ok as backup ruck as well.

Add to that, I'm loving what I see in Cox but its very days and he's lacking a bit of height to be a power forward. Maybe he'll be the new standard but a long way to go yet
 

meima

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To those who say he's not showing enough at Peel, I beg to differ but he's also learning a new role as forward and backup ruck. Doing ok as backup ruck as well.
If he is not showing enough then people who watch him play live going to report as what they saw . I am not sure how you read peel report , what I read is Tab is showing more than Kersten Vs Claremont and put in more effort compare to Vs East Fremantle.

So much time spend on Tab that most of us want him to succeed with freo rather than another menegola story .
 
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If he is not showing enough then people who watch him play live going to report as what they saw . I am not sure how you read peel report , what I read is Tab is showing more than Kersten Vs Claremont and put in more effort compare to Vs East Fremantle. Surely so much time spend on Tab that most of us want him to succeed with freo rather than another menegola story .

Im not entirely sure what you are saying here but yes I'd like to see him succeed simply because it would be good for Fremantle if he did
 

meima

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Im not entirely sure what you are saying here but yes I'd like to see him succeed simply because it would be good for Fremantle if he did
Cut the story short ,all of us want Tab to do well. So it does not matter what people said or how they report about Tab in AfL or with peel .
 
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Bicco

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How about we all draw a line in the sand with this KPF stuff and judge Ross on what he does with Bennell. I don't think that Ross has ever had such a weapon on his hands and if I see Bennell getting kicks outside F50 or even worse back of centre, with nothing to kick to I'll be ropeable. Bennel one on one leading out (Dusty Martin style) will be pure joy.
 

_F7_

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I think we can all agree it would be better if Tabs was good (or knew how potentially good he could be). Good for structure, good for scoring, good for him, good for fans prematurely ageing.

But I do not blame Ross for one second for not picking / dropping him. Pre-season training reports really talked him up over summer. I'm sure if you go back, watchers were saying he looked like he was finally ready to make the leap. Then he stunk up the JLT. No surprise Kersten gets his chance for round 1. Sure he took time to show a bit, but he's new, so you have to give him time to find his place. Then Tabs comes into the side. Plays one good game then stinks it up. Wet game, dry game, whatever. Didn't notice him in Adelaide + Brissy (the whole team disappeared really), but I was at the Pies game where he was back to being Fumbledore, often in the most frustratingly bad spots. In pristine footy conditions. I really wanted him back in the team doing well, consistently, but that game I just thought, 'man, how much does this guy actually care about proving that he's got what it takes?'.

Doesn't have to be Pav reincarnated but jeez, when he's off he's like, way off.

Oh well. Back to the WAFL. Repeat process and hope it clicks next time. I don't see the problem in that.
 

Admiral Byng

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How about we all draw a line in the sand with this KPF stuff and judge Ross on what he does with Bennell. I don't think that Ross has ever had such a weapon on his hands and if I see Bennell getting kicks outside F50 or even worse back of centre, with nothing to kick to I'll be ropeable. Bennel one on one leading out (Dusty Martin style) will be pure joy.

I don't mean to quibble, but isn't that just making the whole forward line dependent on one player once again?

Ross needs a plan and a structure that delivers scores on a regular basis rather than just leaving it to improvisation and hope.
 

malpaso

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You may want to take your own advice here but I'm not sure you can see the flaws in your own comments.

1. Yes, Lyon has the responsibility here. Thats why he's getting paid a million a year. They don't pay him that much money to make the decisions and the sit back and say "well, its the players"

2. Skills. Our skills have not been good for years. This is not a new phenomenon. How many missed kicks / handballs week in week out do you see? Watch a game. We have trouble hitting target 5 meters away by hand. If this is only down to the players, why does he pick them every week? Why has there been no improvement under his coaching tenure?If he cannot improve the player's basic footy skills, why is he even in his position? He's had 5 years to make an improvement, yet our execution is still poor but it's not the coach, is that your argument?

3. Our forward structure wasn't fine even with Pavlich, although having an out an out champion forward covered our deficiencies. If we have to rely on having a once in a lifetime freak player to function, we are in the wrong business.

4. Apeness, is a long term project and yet to show if he can do the job. Taberner has been poorly developed in my view. A few weeks in then back to Peel. He hasn't been given the same opportunities as Kersten for example yet Kersten hasn't shown any more that Taberner. Hard to develop a tall when you don't get given time to grow at this level.

5. Ball movement. I have noticed that we hold up the ball, allowing defenders to structure up. The only faster ball movement tends to come from the younger players and a few older heads like Ballantyne, Walters and Neale. Those are our most effective players on the hole, so that must tell you something.

6. I agree that player play to coaches instructions, which is exactly why I've criticised Lyon. Ever notice how far we kick the ball backwards? Ever noticed how many times we go back into our defensive 50 and turn it over? Ever noticed if its not in their forward 50 they dont get to score? I have. Thats a flawed game plan when it fails so many times every game. Its also not new as we've done that for years.

7. Ever notice how often players have to hold the ball up because we have nobody forward. If I can see it, do you think opposition coaches can't? Have we ever addressed that? No and its another obvious flaw.

8. You say teams that dont slow down the play have been victims of comebacks. I say we've been the victims of comebacks when we do slow down the play (Richmond
, Geelong for example) and the best attacking teams are the ones that are currently ladder leaders. So that argument is fundamentally flawed.

I could go with the obvious stuff but clearly its not what you want to hear.
It's not that I disagree entirely, it's just that your singling out things that all teams do at times. For example, we had a very young side down in Geelong who was out of gas, not to mention playing a very veteran side at their home ground. I don't think the tactics employed are as black and white as you make it out.
Have you watched Carlton, they kick it backwards as much as we do they just have better skilled players back there. ALL TEAMS TRY TO SWITCH, as if Lyon made up that tactic.
If you think we have been trying to 'hold up the ball' this season than your blind.
I think your just a Lyon hater and it is very apparent, you probably have rants earlier about how he doesn't play youngsters too.
 

meima

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I don't mean to quibble, but isn't that just making the whole forward line dependent on one player once again?

Ross needs a plan and a structure that delivers scores on a regular basis rather than just leaving it to improvisation and hope.

Repeat process and hope it clicks next time.
 

darkshines

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Tabs laconic patches and dropped marks arent his main issue IMO, his issue is he does some dumb s**t; runs to the wrong spots, draws crowds when he should be clearing space etc. I actually think currently he makes the fwd structure worse when he plays.
 
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I think we can all agree it would be better if Tabs was good (or knew how potentially good he could be). Good for structure, good for scoring, good for him, good for fans prematurely ageing.

But I do not blame Ross for one second for not picking / dropping him. Pre-season training reports really talked him up over summer. I'm sure if you go back, watchers were saying he looked like he was finally ready to make the leap. Then he stunk up the JLT. No surprise Kersten gets his chance for round 1. Sure he took time to show a bit, but he's new, so you have to give him time to find his place. Then Tabs comes into the side. Plays one good game then stinks it up. Wet game, dry game, whatever. Didn't notice him in Adelaide + Brissy (the whole team disappeared really), but I was at the Pies game where he was back to being Fumbledore, often in the most frustratingly bad spots. In pristine footy conditions. I really wanted him back in the team doing well, consistently, but that game I just thought, 'man, how much does this guy actually care about proving that he's got what it takes?'.

Doesn't have to be Pav reincarnated but jeez, when he's off he's like, way off.

Oh well. Back to the WAFL. Repeat process and hope it clicks next time. I don't see the problem in that.
He had one bad game that ore season.. against West Coast that was close to 40 degrees and the whole team didn't care. Tabs got his confidence smashed and didn't get any other chance to perform this pre season.
He's the only natural leading forward we have. Outworks McCarthy, who doesn't seem to want to back himself down the wing.

The thing is Tabs has never been given the chance to settle in and found his game. Often he goes out overthinking every move, hence the anxiety and pressure on himself. Would love him to have gotten the chances Kersten got- goes out there, gets 3 disposals, yep I'm picked next week anyway. Tabs worst is nothing like Kersten's worst. That's for sure, the last month Shane has been so embarrassingly poor. You just know he's not going to compete, or seem to chase, or mark anything. Whereas Tabs will compete, get to packs, can back himself.
 

HarvestMoon

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Another week, another blood pressure raising game. Typical of that club that they get the win partly due to that dick move from Riewoldt.

Logue needs to be smarter than that but it wasn't very statesmanlike behaviour from Riewoldt. Can you imagine Pav pulling some weak s**t like that?
You obviously don't watch walters diving all over the place..touch of hypocrisy with riewoldt happening here.
 
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He had one bad game that ore season.. against West Coast that was close to 40 degrees and the whole team didn't care. Tabs got his confidence smashed and didn't get any other chance to perform this pre season.
He's the only natural leading forward we have. Outworks McCarthy, who doesn't seem to want to back himself down the wing.

The thing is Tabs has never been given the chance to settle in and found his game. Often he goes out overthinking every move, hence the anxiety and pressure on himself. Would love him to have gotten the chances Kersten got- goes out there, gets 3 disposals, yep I'm picked next week anyway. Tabs worst is nothing like Kersten's worst. That's for sure, the last month Shane has been so embarrassingly poor. You just know he's not going to compete, or seem to chase, or mark anything. Whereas Tabs will compete, get to packs, can back himself.
For the record I want Taberner in this weekend but you seriously sound like the bloke's mother the way you post about him.
 

Bicco

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I don't mean to quibble, but isn't that just making the whole forward line dependent on one player once again?

Ross needs a plan and a structure that delivers scores on a regular basis rather than just leaving it to improvisation and hope.
Two players forward of the ball in our F50? My stars, what wild, unconventional thinking.
Actually my point was based on the fact that currently we have no one forward of the play, so Bennell one out would be a development on that.
I had a dream that we had a big forward that lead out from the goal square. I call him a 'Full Forward '. Either side of him I saw two players who would pick up the ball should the mark be dropped or the kick was off target. I call these players 'Forward pockets'. As a group I call them a 'Forward Line'.
But its all imaginary like elves, pixies and Eskimos.
 

meima

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Two players forward of the ball in our F50? My stars, what wild, unconventional thinking.
Actually my point was based on the fact that currently we have no one forward of the play, so Bennell one out would be a development on that.
I had a dream that we had a big forward that lead out from the goal square. I call him a 'Full Forward '. Either side of him I saw two players who would pick up the ball should the mark be dropped or the kick was off target. I call these players 'Forward pockets'. As a group I call them a 'Forward Line'.
But its all imaginary like elves, pixies and Eskimos.
Until bennell play a game for peel or freo this year , I assume this is just a dream .
 
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