Analysis Herald Sun ranks the top 20 Collingwood players of the modern era

[South of the Yarra]

I am absolutely stunned at those underrating Tony Shaw and Gavin Brown. There is a reason they both in our Team of the Century. Brown was a classical winger who had the most ferocious attack on the ball. His contested marking and ability to go forward and kick a goal as demonstrated in 90 was outstanding. He also had the ability to play on Gary Ablett Snr as a defender. There is a reason he won two E.J Whitten medals when playing at the highest level. He tore Darren Jarman apart when he was Captain of Victorian. Tony Shaw drove us to a flag and was rarely beaten as a midfielder. His courage and hardness meant that one on one he rarely lost. Two of our all time greats.

 

[ZEV]

Monkhorst was a consistently fine ruck, an ongoing B to B+ ruck, did the job Better than most. Better than say David Hale but just below or at times equal to Darren Jolly career wise.

Anthony Rocca was more pinch hitter than whole game ruck.

For us after Peter Moore it’s certainly Brodie Grundy (as you noted).

I’d beg it is Grundy, Monkhorst, Jolly (shorter time with us, without him we don’t win 2010, pinch hitters Cox, Rocca A then the rest.

From about 92-94 Monky was outstanding, by 94 he was widely regarded in our circles as the second best ruckman in the comp (behind Shaun Rehn). Three thirds in the best and fairest as well from 92-94 don't really give credit to how good he was, especially in 94 when Bucks and Rowdy were equal Copeland winners with a combined 11 Brownlow votes and Monkey polled 17....

Also there was a game in 93 when he had 37 possessions, a list of the great modern ruckman including Cox, Stynes, Gawn, Grundy, McKernan, Goodes, Madden never achieved that...

 

[sr36]

One thing I love about our current list is that I think we’re watching a number of players who have club champion potential and who can feature in lists like this for their talent and achievements more than hard work and serviceability. Grundy’s already there, and players like De Goey, Moore, Stephenson, Treloar, Adams, Elliott, Crisp and Maynard all have a lot of footy in front of them to become cherished club champs. A very good core group we have.

I like that you mentioned Crisp. I'd have him above H Shaw and Maxy.

 

[sr36]

From about 92-94 Monky was outstanding, by 94 he was widely regarded in our circles as the second best ruckman in the comp (behind Shaun Rehn). Three thirds in the best and fairest as well from 92-94 don't really give credit to how good he was, especially in 94 when Bucks and Rowdy were equal Copeland winners with a combined 11 Brownlow votes and Monkey polled 17....

Also there was a game in 93 when he had 37 possessions, a list of the great modern ruckman including Cox, Stynes, Gawn, Grundy, McKernan, Goodes, Madden never achieved that...

I'd rate him a fair way below you. I always think of him as having had a couple of very good years, but most of his years were pretty middle of the road

 

[Chrispiesssss]

After reading all of the posts, I think I need to watch some G.Brown. T.Shaw and Daicos videos.

 

[jmac70]

After reading all of the posts, I think I need to watch some G.Brown. T.Shaw and Daicos videos.

Daicos highlights are just about the best thing there is, from a footy perspective.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

1. T Lockyer

Don’t @ me

 

[Jelly Bean]

I don't want to step through all the 6 pages of comments on this, so apologies if I a doubling up, but Paul Williams definitely belongs in the top 20.

Maxy needs to come out. Didak is too high on the list - a bit overrated in my view and his left foot was a little less deadly than people think.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I am absolutely stunned at those underrating Tony Shaw and Gavin Brown. There is a reason they both in our Team of the Century. Brown was a classical winger who had the most ferocious attack on the ball. His contested marking and ability to go forward and kick a goal as demonstrated in 90 was outstanding. He also had the ability to play on Gary Ablett Snr as a defender. There is a reason he won two E.J Whitten medals when playing at the highest level. He tore Darren Jarman apart when he was Captain of Victorian. Tony Shaw drove us to a flag and was rarely beaten as a midfielder. His courage and hardness meant that one on one he rarely lost. Two of our all time greats.

Agree. You' feel unlucky at making the Club's best 22 players of all time (in the Team of the Century), but somehow missing out when the field is narrowed to the last 30 years...

 

[Albert Parker]

Agree. You' feel unlucky at making the Club's best 22 players of all time (in the Team of the Century), but somehow missing out when the field is narrowed to the last 30 years...

No one has suggested leaving Shaw nor G Brown out of their top 20 list that I have seen. Only that, predominantly in the case of Shaw, that he not be rated in the top 5-6 as the Herald Sun has suggested. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that Gavin Brown was very good and holds a worthy spot just below Bucks/Pendles/Daicos in whatever order you place them.

Tony Shaw was an effective on field leader through his actions but seemingly a lot of credence has been given to leadership in the HS lists rankings, including Nick Maxwell getting a gig in the Top 20 list at all.

I also think Tony Shaw's tactical nous, which to me should form part of someone's stature as being rated as a great leader, are shown up in his coaching and commentary careers since. He's pretty inarticulate and his coaching capability was proven very ordinary. But as a player he worked his arse off, was unrelenting and had strong mental capacity, but for mine he was a somewhat limited footballer who shouldn't occupy a ranking so high in the top 20.

I see that Luke Hodge and Cameron Ling, to various degrees, get plaudits greater than their playing capabilities deserve because of this factor too.
The fact that some rate Hodge above Chris Judd and Gary Ablett in lists of best players is hard to justify for mine. A very good footballer, great leader but not all that close to Judd and Ablett as a player for mine.

 

[adammania9]

The Pies have seen a few stars who either didn't see out their careers at Collingwood and/or weren't able to achieve their full potential due to injury. Dale Thomas and Dayne Beams could have ranked very high up on this list if they continued on their merry ways but didn't for their respective reasons. Heath Shaw played his best footy at GWS; if he did what he did there for us in the last few years he'd be right up there. Harry O had a few loose screws but he was a gun footballer and it would have been nice to have him finish his career with us.

 

[adammania9]

Graeme Wright...
Chris Tarrant...
Leon Davis...

Josh Fraser is another who is unlucky not to be the last name on that list. Was near lame by the end of his career but people forget how good his first 100-125 games were. Was a prototype mobile ruck well before Grundy took it to the next level.

Scotty Russell was another very good player.... along with Ben Johnson, Shane O’Bree... probably in the next 10 players on the list

I wouldn't have Fraser top 20 but he is an underrated gem and I don't get why he's carried the reputation of being a spud since retirement. Gun ruck-forward in his early days, one of the better going around, and played very well in both grand finals. Became a very solid mobile #1 ruck, still a reliable goal kicker who have 100% each week. As late as 2009 he had probably his best season of his career (certainly his best as a #1 ruck). Very solid player for a long time. Good clubman.

 

[jathanas]

I am absolutely stunned at those underrating Tony Shaw and Gavin Brown. There is a reason they both in our Team of the Century. Brown was a classical winger who had the most ferocious attack on the ball. His contested marking and ability to go forward and kick a goal as demonstrated in 90 was outstanding. He also had the ability to play on Gary Ablett Snr as a defender. There is a reason he won two E.J Whitten medals when playing at the highest level. He tore Darren Jarman apart when he was Captain of Victorian. Tony Shaw drove us to a flag and was rarely beaten as a midfielder. His courage and hardness meant that one on one he rarely lost. Two of our all time greats.

I don't think anyone underrated either of them, especially so Rowdy. G. Brown easily holds his place in the top 10, if not top 5.

T Shaw is an important part of the club's history; most have acknowledged his contribution to our 1990 success and paid respect to his work ethic and courage. Just like Maxwell though, his skills were limited. If I had to choose one out of those 2 for this list it would be Shaw.

 

[jathanas]

I wouldn't have Fraser top 20 but he is an underrated gem and I don't get why he's carried the reputation of being a spud since retirement. Gun ruck-forward in his early days, one of the better going around, and played very well in both grand finals. Became a very solid mobile #1 ruck, still a reliable goal kicker who have 100% each week. As late as 2009 he had probably his best season of his career (certainly his best as a #1 ruck). Very solid player for a long time. Good clubman.

Agreed on Fraser. A numero uno draft pick and an early prototype for the mobile ruckman. Very good player and nice bloke as well. Saw his first game for the club against Hawthorn at the MCG. (Was his first kick a goal?)

The injury he suffered in the state of origin game he played for Victoria was a catalyst for his reduced output since that game.

We shouldn't underrate him.

 

[jmac70]

I wouldn't have Fraser top 20 but he is an underrated gem and I don't get why he's carried the reputation of being a spud since retirement. Gun ruck-forward in his early days, one of the better going around, and played very well in both grand finals. Became a very solid mobile #1 ruck, still a reliable goal kicker who have 100% each week. As late as 2009 he had probably his best season of his career (certainly his best as a #1 ruck). Very solid player for a long time. Good clubman.

His 2006 season was excellent. Got injured late in 2007 and missed the finals. Would have been handy against the Cats in the PF.

 

[35Daicos]

Agreed on Fraser. A numero uno draft pick and an early prototype for the mobile ruckman. Very good player and nice bloke as well. Saw his first game for the club against Hawthorn at the MCG. (Was his first kick a goal?)

The injury he suffered in the state of origin game he played for Victoria was a catalyst for his reduced output since that game.

We shouldn't underrate him.

No. He did kick a goal on debut, but not with his first kick. That can be seen 8.30 into this video:

 

[Jelly Bean]

No one has suggested leaving Shaw nor G Brown out of their top 20 list that I have seen. Only that, predominantly in the case of Shaw, that he not be rated in the top 5-6 as the Herald Sun has suggested. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that Gavin Brown was very good and holds a worthy spot just below Bucks/Pendles/Daicos in whatever order you place them.

Tony Shaw was an effective on field leader through his actions but seemingly a lot of credence has been given to leadership in the HS lists rankings, including Nick Maxwell getting a gig in the Top 20 list at all.

I also think Tony Shaw's tactical nous, which to me should form part of someone's stature as being rated as a great leader, are shown up in his coaching and commentary careers since. He's pretty inarticulate and his coaching capability was proven very ordinary. But as a player he worked his arse off, was unrelenting and had strong mental capacity, but for mine he was a somewhat limited footballer who shouldn't occupy a ranking so high in the top 20.

I see that Luke Hodge and Cameron Ling, to various degrees, get plaudits greater than their playing capabilities deserve because of this factor too.
The fact that some rate Hodge above Chris Judd and Gary Ablett in lists of best players is hard to justify for mine. A very good footballer, great leader but not all that close to Judd and Ablett as a player for mine.

Are you trying to make the argument that because he wasn't a successful coach, that he wasn't a good onfield leader, and therefore should drop places in the list? I've heard quotes from each of Buckley (in his book), Malthouse (in one of his books) and Lethal, all saying what an outstanding leader of men he is. And I also hope you aren't saying anything about his media commentary influencing anything to do with this list...

I think it is an interesting exercise to look at the Team of the Century again though. Who from the current era could displace him from that side, and therefore warrant him sliding down the list? Pendles definitely, Swan definitely, but both are already above him. Clement? I'd say yes, as I rate him the best versatile medium defender I've seen play for Collingwood. Cloke? Had a couple of dominant years, but I'd say no. Grundy? Not yet. Sidebottom. Not yet. Either Rocca? I don't think so either (big shame that Sav never realised his potential. Kicked 93 goals in a season as a 21 year old....)

 

[pablo disco bar]

Been watching games from 1991 to 1995 on you tube
Gee Francis Wright Brown and Manson were guns ey...so many ageing warriors.
I'm surprised we didn't have more success in that era

 

[Go Woods]

After reading all of the posts, I think I need to watch some G.Brown. T.Shaw and Daicos videos.

Absolutely you do, Daicos just sublime I might add.

 

[ottoman]

After reading all of the posts, I think I need to watch some G.Brown. T.Shaw and Daicos videos.

Don't forget Millane. Opposition players used to s**t themselves whenever he was around.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I just stumbled across a replay of the 1990 GF commentated by Shaw, Monky, Chrisso. Very good way to watch the GF.

Chrisso had a better GF than I remember - was outstanding. Kelly was great, Shaw was great, Starce was great. Morwood and Kerro were pretty good. Our bigger names didn't dominate (e.g. Daics, Millane, McGuane, Francis, Russell, Brown for obvious reasons), but our next tier down was the key.

 

[Albert Parker]

Are you trying to make the argument that because he wasn't a successful coach, that he wasn't a good onfield leader, and therefore should drop places in the list? I've heard quotes from each of Buckley (in his book), Malthouse (in one of his books) and Lethal, all saying what an outstanding leader of men he is. And I also hope you aren't saying anything about his media commentary influencing anything to do with this list...

I think it is an interesting exercise to look at the Team of the Century again though. Who from the current era could displace him from that side, and therefore warrant him sliding down the list? Pendles definitely, Swan definitely, but both are already above him. Clement? I'd say yes, as I rate him the best versatile medium defender I've seen play for Collingwood. Cloke? Had a couple of dominant years, but I'd say no. Grundy? Not yet. Sidebottom. Not yet. Either Rocca? I don't think so either (big shame that Sav never realised his potential. Kicked 93 goals in a season as a 21 year old....)

My primary point was that I find that using leadership as a criteria for enjoying exalted status in lists of player rankings as a bit overrated in my opinion. Hence my observations about Hodge and Ling too. Capable leaders, premiership captains but not as great players as others who perhaps didn't lead their teams to premierships in my opinion. Yet Mark Robinson ranks Luke Hodge as the No 6 footballer in the past decade. He was a 3x All Australian and only once in that decade. I'll take Scott Pendlebury ahead of him as a 6x All Australian in the past decade.

Maxwell shouldn't make the list of 20 for mine, other see it similar.
Great leader, but not much better than average footballer who had a couple of good seasons when the team was up and about.

I think you're also getting confused in your original assertion.
No one that I have seen is suggesting that Shaw doesn't make the short list of 20-22. Yet that's what you've begun suggesting.
But a few have suggested that that he shouldn't be as high No 6 on the list as Glenn McFarlane had placed him. I am one of them.

You've also seem to have suggested that Gavin Brown was being talked down by others in these rankings. I haven't seen anyone but you (and South of the Yarra) make that assertion. But you've also admitted that you skipped the first 6 pages.

Yep, I agree with you that James Clement was a better footballer than Tony Shaw - great one on one, strong, quick, beautiful kick and a good thinker.
I think 'Pants' Millane too, who ranked below him at No 7 in McFarlane's rankings, was a better footballer than Tony Shaw - quick, strong, tough had a good leap and hit the scoreboard as well. Millane was on the ground in the Team of the Century, suggesting that the selectors of the day ranked him ahead of Tony Shaw.

Tony Shaw was a poor mans Sam Mitchell. In and under, got the pill but Sam Mitchell was a lot more damaging by (either) foot.
Shaw was slow, couldn't get off the ground to mark and couldn't kick particularly well on his preferred foot and had no alternate side.
But he was fit, physically and mentally strong, got in opponents heads and willed himself and his team to victory.

That team of the Century was named in 1997, when Tony Shaw was named on the bench.
Scott Pendlebury and Dane Swan would both be named ahead of Tony Shaw if it was done today.
I'm not sure that Tony Shaw even makes the same Team of the Century today therefore.

 

[Jelly Bean]

My primary point was that I find that using leadership as a criteria for enjoying exalted status in lists of player rankings as a bit overrated in my opinion. Hence my observations about Hodge and Ling too. Capable leaders, premiership captains but not as great players as others who perhaps didn't lead their teams to premierships in my opinion. Yet Mark Robinson ranks Luke Hodge as the No 6 footballer in the past decade. He was a 3x All Australian and only once in that decade. I'll take Scott Pendlebury ahead of him as a 6x All Australian in the past decade.

Maxwell shouldn't make the list of 20 for mine, other see it similar.
Great leader, but not much better than average footballer who had a couple of good seasons when the team was up and about.

I think you're also getting confused in your original assertion.
No one that I have seen is suggesting that Shaw doesn't make the short list of 20-22. Yet that's what you've begun suggesting.
But a few have suggested that that he shouldn't be as high No 6 on the list as Glenn McFarlane had placed him. I am one of them.

You've also seem to have suggested that Gavin Brown was being talked down by others in these rankings. I haven't seen anyone but you (and South of the Yarra) make that assertion. But you've also admitted that you skipped the first 6 pages.

Yep, I agree with you that James Clement was a better footballer than Tony Shaw - great one on one, strong, quick, beautiful kick and a good thinker.
I think 'Pants' Millane too, who ranked below him at No 7 in McFarlane's rankings, was a better footballer than Tony Shaw - quick, strong, tough had a good leap and hit the scoreboard as well. Millane was on the ground in the Team of the Century, suggesting that the selectors of the day ranked him ahead of Tony Shaw.

Tony Shaw was a poor mans Sam Mitchell. In and under, got the pill but Sam Mitchell was a lot more damaging by (either) foot.
Shaw was slow, couldn't get off the ground to mark and couldn't kick particularly well on his preferred foot and had no alternate side.
But he was fit, physically and mentally strong, got in opponents heads and willed himself and his team to victory.

That team of the Century was named in 1997, when Tony Shaw was named on the bench.
Scott Pendlebury and Dane Swan would both be named ahead of Tony Shaw if it was done today.
I'm not sure that Tony Shaw even makes the same Team of the Century today therefore.

I think leadership should contribute to some degree, but to a much lesser degree than individual output.

I'm also not suggesting that anyone is saying he should drop out of the 20 - I'm trying to get a sense of how far down people think he should drop. From those above him, I'd have Clement in front probably, and Millane is a fair call, although I didn't see as much of him as I'd have liked, and I do feel that in general there is a 'tragedy bias' with Millane because of the accident and the fact that he was only 26. I suspect people look back a little more fondly on him because of what they thought he could become.

As I said in my post, I am of the opinion also that Pendles and Swan would be in front of Shaw for ToC (and probably cost him his spot), but not sure how many others would. So in my view, I'd still have Tony Shaw in the top 10

Interestingly, just for fun (and due to boredom), I did my best 22 for the period, and had T Shaw on the bench.

 

[jackcass]

It’s not a side, rather 20 best players. Not sure what their criteria were, but clearly in football it’s more than just stats. Otherwise Presti never would have played more than a game.

True, it’s not a side, but the same equally applies. Does a list that already includes 1/2 a dozen captains need to include a guy on the strength of his leadership?

 

[magpies42]

True, it’s not a side, but the same equally applies. Does a list that already includes 1/2 a dozen captains need to include a guy on the strength of his leadership?

I would think that if it was part of the selection criteria for the others then it should be evenly applied to all. I think if you remove the leadership aspect Shaw falls out of the top 20 also. The other captains would be included either way. Burns included.