Analysis Hine Picking too Many of the Same Type

No SPIN

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C'mon on now Spinny, how many indigenous small forwards who are natural crumbers with evasiveness and timing as well as goal nous have we recruited under Hine?

It's almost more shallow than his last decades first round KPP list, which is bupkis outside Moore.
If you are suggesting that Hine is purposely overlooking them - I can’t agree but would be happy for you to offer some evidence of such players overlooked when we were looking for small fwds.

Picked ATU last year, though not indigenous has some similar traits.
 

nahnah

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If you don’t understand that’s fine - but I noticed others have made the same point.
No you just completely missed my point. Stack went undrafted, we could have taken him at pick 90 but we didn’t. That is my point. Stephenson is completely irrelevant, different draft, we didn’t pass on Stack to draft Stephenson
 

loki04

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If you are suggesting that Hine is purposely overlooking them - I can’t agree but would be happy for you to offer some evidence of such players overlooked when we were looking for small fwds.

Picked ATU last year, though not indigenous has some similar traits.
We've had a need since Davis retired.
K.Ugle the only real *specialist* recruited as a rookie player and I'd argue a pick missing a few key attributes most indigenous players have.
Broomy was not selected as fwd pocket player but was re purposed there.
Kirby was not a crumbing specialist (Lead and mark type) neither was Abbott (HF/HB), JT was an inside mid re purposed, Blair is well Blair.
Daicos a winger/hff/small forward, has some attributes suited but I think will find his better suited up field.
Degoey, WHE and Stephenson are all medium talls whilst possessing good crumbing ability at times and when required, they are lead and mark types.
C.Brown played predominantly midfield at u18 level with stints up fwd, shows some ability on occassion for a well timed rove, my question does he have the creativity of top line crumbing specialists.

Yes true ATU has *some* similar attributes but maybe not the natural footy nous and creativity, wait and see I guess on that front.

Whether its a deliberate track taken or not I don't know, but the amount of time he has been in charge 15 drafts the amount of drafted indigenous small fwds reads a list of 1. You can not tell me there hasn't been ample talent in that many drafts where we have had opportunity but passed. Coincidence you reckon?
 

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No SPIN

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We've had a need since Davis retired.
K.Ugle the only real *specialist* recruited as a rookie player and I'd argue a pick missing a few key attributes most indigenous players have.
Broomy was not selected as fwd pocket player but was re purposed there.
Kirby was not a crumbing specialist (Lead and mark type) neither was Abbott (HF/HB), JT was an inside mid re purposed, Blair is well Blair.
Daicos a winger/hff/small forward, has some attributes suited but I think will find his better suited up field.
Degoey, WHE and Stephenson are all medium talls whilst possessing good crumbing ability at times and when required, they are lead and mark types.
C.Brown played predominantly midfield at u18 level with stints up fwd, shows some ability on occassion for a well timed rove, my question does he have the creativity of top line crumbing specialists.

Yes true ATU has *some* similar attributes but maybe not the natural footy nous and creativity, wait and see I guess on that front.

Whether its a deliberate track taken or not I don't know, but the amount of time he has been in charge 15 drafts the amount of drafted indigenous small fwds reads a list of 1. You can not tell me there hasn't been ample talent in that many drafts where we have had opportunity but passed. Coincidence you reckon?
Weren’t, Brad Dick, Kirby, Atu and Krakouer all in the last 15 trade periods? I’m not sure.
Maybe he is too conservative and is not alone on this as a recruiter - because many such players have stepped away from the game prematurely for a variety of reasons after being drafted.

It is clearly an issue and if your job depends on making the right choices then you become risk averse.

Or the issue could be simply explained by poor scouting - and that’s easily fixed.

PS: even Stack being on a short rein with Hardwick is instructive on this point.
 
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No SPIN

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No you just completely missed my point. Stack went undrafted, we could have taken him at pick 90 but we didn’t. That is my point. Stephenson is completely irrelevant, different draft, we didn’t pass on Stack to draft Stephenson
Go it - sorry for the misunderstanding.
 

loki04

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Weren’t, Brad Dick, Kirby, Atu and Krakouer all in the last 15 trade periods?
Do you doubt Hine recommending the drafting of a proven small like, Cameron, Walters etc if available?

On your theory I suspect the answer is yes.

But I disagree.

The issue could be simply explained by poor scouting - and that’s easily fixed.
Forgot about lil Dicky wow that was a long time ago, yes you can add him to Kirk Ugle so 2 in 15 years.

Kirby? as what mate as a specialist crumbing type? you ever watch his games? He was a lead and mark type who occasionally crumb a goal. Does not fit the job description.

Hines in charge of drafting he recommends nothing. He picks them.

Krakouer was a proven AFL player, small risk. I'm talking drafting them out of u18 systems.

I'm not suggesting anything other then they see them as too big a risk and it appears Hine would rather trade in indigenous types or proven afl types (like krack) then draft them.

"I said to 'Jase' [Mifsud] that the attrition rate was too high at the moment. He agreed that there were too many indigenous players dropping out of the system. I said, 'I've got my theories, tell me if you reckon I'm right'," Rendell said. When he then declared indigenous players generally came from more laidback families and were "not prepared for AFL life as others . . . he [Mifsud] said, 'That's a fair assumption of Aboriginal life' ".

"I was using that as a basis for an idea I had to help more indigenous players stay in the system. I want every kid to play 10 years no matter where they are from," he said. "I said to Jason there is a serious issue that needs to be addressed right now. It was a throwaway line — a ridiculous line — but I said you might find we only recruit players with only one white parent."

Now I don't think Rendell (or Hine) is a racist and get what he was saying here but it does show it (see them as risky prospects/high attrition rates) was in their thinking, he's Hines 2iC and before he came to the club Hine said he agreed with him overall in an interview.
 

No SPIN

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Forgot about lil Dicky wow that was a long time ago, yes you can add him to Kirk Ugle so 2 in 15 years.

Kirby? as what mate as a specialist crumbing type? you ever watch his games? He was a lead and mark type who occasionally crumb a goal. Does not fit the job description.

Hines in charge of drafting he recommends nothing. He picks them.

Krakouer was a proven AFL player, small risk. I'm talking drafting them out of u18 systems.

I'm not suggesting anything other then they see them as too big a risk and it appears Hine would rather trade in indigenous types or proven afl types (like krack) then draft them.



Now I don't think Rendell (or Hine) is a racist and get what he was saying here but it does show it (see them as risky prospects/high attrition rates) was in their thinking, he's Hines 2iC and before he came to the club Hine said he agreed with him overall in an interview.
Mate you are quick - I completely rewrote the post it was up for less than a minute.
 

Kappa

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What you said was like der no s**t sherlock thanks for playing captain ******* obvious type of statement that really didn't add anything to the discussion. My quip back at you was a satirical response to it.
Why bother saying something so inane and obvious, there is a dearth of that type in the team and on the list. Indigenous small forwards are usually found in every draft (this is why people are looking for increased recruiting here as they are accessible and add hi xfactor).
Hine has overlooked many indigenous talents over many years (Kayle Kirby was a predominantly lead and mark type not a traditional crumbing type he only did that occasionally), Abott again was more HFF and HBF then a small crumbing type.
My response was to a comment that our recruiters should prioritize certain kids based on their race, you know, actual racism. Context helps.
 

nahnah

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My response was to a comment that our recruiters should prioritize certain kids based on their race, you know, actual racism. Context helps.
you should have reported the post if you think it is racism! Out of curiosity who am I being racist towards? Pretty laughable accusation
 

Kappa

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you should have reported the post if you think it is racism! Out of curiosity who am I being racist towards? Pretty laughable accusation
Well selecting or not selecting people based on their race would be racial discrimination I would have thought... ?
 

nahnah

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Well selecting or not selecting people based on their race would be racial discrimination I would have thought... ?
Hmm I can kind of see where you are coming from when said like that and in an extreme pc type view seeing indigenous small forwards being better crumbing small forwards than non indigenous can be viewed as racist but I meant it more as a list need rather than selecting on race. I mean sure pick the next Stephen Milne instead but I look at the top crumbing small forwards in today’s game and majority are indigenous apart from really Papley who I already stated (maybe not in this thread) we should get.

Having said all that if we are the only club without an indigenous player next season I would be disappointed and it’ll be interesting to see what they do with the indigenous guernsey/round, if that’s racist in some way oh well sue me I guess
 

Kappa

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Hmm I can kind of see where you are coming from when said like that and in an extreme pc type view seeing indigenous small forwards being better crumbing small forwards than non indigenous can be viewed as racist but I meant it more as a list need rather than selecting on race. I mean sure pick the next Stephen Milne instead but I look at the top crumbing small forwards in today’s game and majority are indigenous apart from really Papley who I already stated (maybe not in this thread) we should get.

Having said all that if we are the only club without an indigenous player next season I would be disappointed and it’ll be interesting to see what they do with the indigenous guernsey/round, if that’s racist in some way oh well sue me I guess
So you don't see the problem with recruiters making decisions based on race... Fair enough, carry on.

Fairly old-fashioned view but you're entitled to it, unless you actually do it for a company then you get your pants sued off.
 

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Finnishpie

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Do we need to chase Jonathan Patton?

I reckon our biggest need is in the key positions. Reid will have retired (so will Dunn) and Moore isn't to be trusted. Kelly is injured and inexperienced.

So I'd say our first draft pick needs to be a KPP and we should try to get another one in. Only after that do we need a crumber and an outside runner in the mould of Brad Hill.
 

The Royal Sampler

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Do we need to chase Jonathan Patton?

I reckon our biggest need is in the key positions. Reid will have retired (so will Dunn) and Moore isn't to be trusted. Kelly is injured and inexperienced.

So I'd say our first draft pick needs to be a KPP and we should try to get another one in. Only after that do we need a crumber and an outside runner in the mould of Brad Hill.
No.

We have a second rounder so lets hope for a Tom Clurey or Brennan Cox type.
 

jackcass

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We've had a need since Davis retired.
K.Ugle the only real *specialist* recruited as a rookie player and I'd argue a pick missing a few key attributes most indigenous players have.
Broomy was not selected as fwd pocket player but was re purposed there.
Kirby was not a crumbing specialist (Lead and mark type) neither was Abbott (HF/HB), JT was an inside mid re purposed, Blair is well Blair.
Daicos a winger/hff/small forward, has some attributes suited but I think will find his better suited up field.
Degoey, WHE and Stephenson are all medium talls whilst possessing good crumbing ability at times and when required, they are lead and mark types.
C.Brown played predominantly midfield at u18 level with stints up fwd, shows some ability on occassion for a well timed rove, my question does he have the creativity of top line crumbing specialists.

Yes true ATU has *some* similar attributes but maybe not the natural footy nous and creativity, wait and see I guess on that front.

Whether its a deliberate track taken or not I don't know, but the amount of time he has been in charge 15 drafts the amount of drafted indigenous small fwds reads a list of 1. You can not tell me there hasn't been ample talent in that many drafts where we have had opportunity but passed. Coincidence you reckon?
I don't think we purposefully don't look at indigenous talent. Since the early naughties I can recall Richard Cole, Shannon Cox, Chris Egan, Simon Buckley, Johnny Bennell, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Jason Roe, Andrew Krakouer, Brad Dick, Anthony Corrie, Peter Yagmoor, Sharrod Wellingham, Kirk Ugle all being taken via the draft and we've traded in Wells, Varcoe, and Armstrong. We just haven't had a lot of luck with those we've chosen for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: Add the wunderkind to that who was clearly on our radar, just forgot to grow..
 
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Frank Gallagher

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We've had a need since Davis retired.
K.Ugle the only real *specialist* recruited as a rookie player and I'd argue a pick missing a few key attributes most indigenous players have.
Broomy was not selected as fwd pocket player but was re purposed there.
Kirby was not a crumbing specialist (Lead and mark type) neither was Abbott (HF/HB), JT was an inside mid re purposed, Blair is well Blair.
Daicos a winger/hff/small forward, has some attributes suited but I think will find his better suited up field.
Degoey, WHE and Stephenson are all medium talls whilst possessing good crumbing ability at times and when required, they are lead and mark types.
C.Brown played predominantly midfield at u18 level with stints up fwd, shows some ability on occassion for a well timed rove, my question does he have the creativity of top line crumbing specialists.

Yes true ATU has *some* similar attributes but maybe not the natural footy nous and creativity, wait and see I guess on that front.

Whether its a deliberate track taken or not I don't know, but the amount of time he has been in charge 15 drafts the amount of drafted indigenous small fwds reads a list of 1. You can not tell me there hasn't been ample talent in that many drafts where we have had opportunity but passed. Coincidence you reckon?
Most of the Indigenous talent comes from interstate, and with comes the go home factor and I hate to say it but Indigenous kids seem to have more trouble fitting into life in the big city than your average white kid.
 

TheGermanator

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Stevos crumbing isn't a typical of how he gets his bread and butter goals either, he's typically a lead and mark type (whether at the ball carrier or back to goals) who has the ability for the odd crumb.

When people talk crumbers they are talking specialist at the role like Leon Davis, Stephen Milne, Eddie Betts etc. not just about roving packs but the ability to create something from nothing in congestion, spot players others wouldn't and have the skill/ability to nail them inside the f50 arc.


Man I miss Leon.
This is the s**t we are talking about!
21 seconds - 32 seconds

 

Unknown Identity

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Hopefully we don't trade for another midfielder with a first round pick for the next 5+ years.

I like Treloar, i think he's harshly judged due to the sheer number of contests he is getting to, i think he runs too much and shoulders a large portion of the load in our mids but in hindsight that 2015 draft both Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow went Picks 10 and 12.

Would have loved to see a forward line duo of Curnow and Moore along with DeGoey and Stephenson.
That's money.
 

OniAu

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Shouldn't be relying on international/cross sport prospects to fill our KP needs either. Cox has been good , but has his limitations. Really wish we would just draft a young KPF OR KPD and put some time into them

Our list balance is stupidly out of whack. Plus we love to hang on to nothing players who are about 8th best for their position (Wills, Broomhead , Crocker, (Of the past) Oxley and Blair) or injury prone players ( Reid , Wells ) Instead of turning these types over for youth.

We dont even have a back up ruck if Grundy goes down. Cox is it , but then it takes a KPF from our forward line.
 

loki04

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So you don't see the problem with recruiters making decisions based on race... Fair enough, carry on.

Fairly old-fashioned view but you're entitled to it, unless you actually do it for a company then you get your pants sued off.
Kappa you are completely shooting blanks here. Looking for the man on the grassy knoll when there isn't one.

Do indigenous smalls forwards typically tend to have evasiveness? spacial awareness? speed off the mark? chase down pace? Goal sense? Clean foot skills? vision? cat like agility? and a neat bag of tricks to create from nothing?

So when people ask for more indigenous small forwards to be drafted they are looking at wanting players capable of bringing in said attributes and knowing it is an often found combination set in indigenous players. If you can find a player regardless of race by all means do it, but typically you find it easier to get that collection of attributes from the indigenous boys and typically at a low cost in draft pick terms.

You arent selecting them BECAUSE they are aboriginal you are selecting them because they can typically play the role better then others and bring select attributes to the team.
 
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loki04

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I don't think we purposefully don't look at indigenous talent. Since the early naughties I can recall Richard Cole, Shannon Cox, Chris Egan, Simon Buckley, Johnny Bennell, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Jason Roe, Andrew Krakouer, Brad Dick, Anthony Corrie, Peter Yagmoor, Sharrod Wellingham, Kirk Ugle all being taken via the draft and we've traded in Wells, Varcoe, and Armstrong. We just haven't had a lot of luck with those we've chosen for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: Add the wunderkind to that who was clearly on our radar, just forgot to grow..
Much of that pre dates Hines reign, judkins last draft with Hine also having input (Hine took over late in the year but Judkins had done the work in 04, from 05 Hine went solo) and then not long after he took over, he seemed to be more active in drafting indigenous boys as HBF's but not so much crumbing specialist types.

I did state also he appears to like indigenous players as mature from other clubs rather then taking a risk on drafting u18 types the last decade at least.
 

loki04

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My response was to a comment that our recruiters should prioritize certain kids based on their race, you know, actual racism. Context helps.
Yes context does help which is why your original comment was crap.
He wasn't saying get an indigenous kid regardless of talent (like you claim he is), he was saying recruit talented indigenous players who have a particular skill set that go late in every draft over a less talented grunt type Hine usually goes for or even rookied instead of a long shot KPP.

We need to recruit more indigenous talent, we really lack in that department an have for a while.
See that 6 letter word there yeah the one that spells TALENT, and see where he goes after it where we have lacked in the area. He's reffering to type ie a crumbing specialist with xfactor goals sense and pace that is a typical of indigenous small fwds.


He's not saying lets go out there and just put indigenous on the list just because. The only person who seemingly didn't get what he meant was you (but I bet you actually did know what he meant by it).
 

Kappa

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Kappa you are completely shooting blanks here. Looking for the man on the grassy knoll when there isn't one.

Do indigenous smalls forwards typically tend to have evasiveness? spacial awareness? speed off the mark? chase down pace? Goal sense? Clean foot skills? vision? cat like agility? and a neat bag of tricks to create from nothing?

So when people ask for more indigenous small forwards to be drafted they are looking at wanting players capable of bringing in said attributes and knowing it is an often found combination set in indigenous players. If you can find a player regardless of race by all means do it, but typically you find it easier to get that collection of attributes from the indigenous boys and typically at a low cost in draft pick terms.

You arent selecting them BECAUSE they are aboriginal you are selecting them because they can typically play the role better then others and bring select attributes to the team.
If you want those attributes then you want those attributes, that's completely different to wanting a certain race.

If our recruiters said "we want an agile small forward" and the best one is indigenous then great, get him. If our recruiters said "we want an aboriginal forward" then that is clearly a form of racism and its ridiculous you're even trying to argue against that.
 

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