Analysis Derek Hine

[Frank Gallagher]

The problem with our list is that at this time next year, the same players are likely to be suffering the same injuries, and the out of form players now may become the delisted or list clogging players of the future. But if you are happy to have half the squad missing post mid season, and are willing to overlook the chronics and the cloggers, by all means compliment the quality of the list.

Don't get me started man, we should've cut ties with Reid when his last contract was up, to me it was a no brainer, we gave him a 3 year extension iirc lol.

We should've moved Moore on last year as well, Swans were into him big-time apparently, he had pretty good currency too, I reckon moore is an outstanding prospect but if he's having major hammy issues at his age it's unlikely to get better as he ages, I would've cut him loose.

 

[sirlothie]

We fell into the trap of picking top ups instead of best young kid. We could be in for a long time being on the bottom rebuilding because we have little top end talent coming through.

 

[partypie]

Stevo the year before...

Personally I think Stack is better based on their respective first year(s) of football, but they'll both be very good.

Right now (and in direct comparison to Stack's year to date) Stevo tended to get a bit lost when he was playing further up the ground last year, but together with DeGoey we've got probably two of the most dangerous forward line match-ups in the competition and probably two of the better midfielders in the competition if you look a few years ahead.

Stack on the other hand has shown a degree of maturity, toughness and ability to have an impact down back, in the middle and, more recently, up forward in his first season which sets him apart - he'll be stiff to lose the rising star to Walsh but he'd be a worthy winner in any other year.

 

[sr36]

We fell into the trap of picking top ups instead of best young kid. We could be in for a long time being on the bottom rebuilding because we have little top end talent coming through.

Beams, Dunn and Roughy are the only ones who fit the description of top ups and Dunn and Roughy were godsends.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Personally I think Stack is better based on their respective first year(s) of football, but they'll both be very good.

Right now (and in direct comparison to Stack's year to date) Stevo tended to get a bit lost when he was playing further up the ground last year, but together with DeGoey we've got probably two of the most dangerous forward line match-ups in the competition and probably two of the better midfielders in the competition if you look a few years ahead.

Stack on the other hand has shown a degree of maturity, toughness and ability to have an impact down back, in the middle and, more recently, up forward in his first season which sets him apart - he'll be stiff to lose the rising star to Walsh but he'd be a worthy winner in any other year.

I guess that main counterpoint was more towards nahnah's....observation.

Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

It doesn't matter if your Indigenous, or Australian or from Pluto. Talent is talent.

 

[jackcass]

GWS had some of their best players out, it wasn't an excuse for them.

And they've lost 4 of their last 6. It's not an excuse for either team but you can't discount the impact losing best 22 players has, especially given the evenness of the comp. GWS beating us is no different to us beating the Weagles. It happens.

 

[nahnah]

I guess that main counterpoint was more towards nahnah's....observation.

Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

It doesn't matter if your Indigenous, or Australian or from Pluto. Talent is talent.

Or more the fact that if Varcoe and Wells retire we don't have a single indigenous player on the list largely due to the fact we have a history of passing on them.. I'm not saying we are racist as a club I'm just saying we tend to pass on the indigenous small forwards for other players and it would be nice to have a few small forwards that can crumb outside of Stevo

 

[No SPIN]

Which of our players taken last year are more talented than Stack?

How many players were better than Stevo last year. - can’t pick best player every draft.

 

[nahnah]

How many players were better than Stevo last year. - can’t pick best player every draft.

That’s no my point at all... but ok

 

[loki04]

Send the memo to our recruiters to focus on race rather than talent for our picks...

Are you suggesting they arent as talented? Rioli x 2, Stack, Cameron (WCE), Ryan, B.Hill.

You know damn well the indigenous boys have highly desired attributes, pace, agility, class, xfactor, chasing/tackling, roving timing and goal sense.

Hine tends to opt for endurance battler types mid to late draft instead of higher talent ceilings but more work rate needed to built types.

 

[loki04]

Don’t think that is fair. Last year we drafted Stephenson who is fast, traded for Murray who’s a pacey half back. This year we drafted a pacey half back in Quaynor and young KPP in Kelly.

Could we have used another mature age defender? Sure. But he’s not picking purely one paced mids all the time

Stevo is a jet but that shouldn't of precluded us from taking more indigenous small fwds with rookie or late picks over the last decade. Hine likes his hardworking grunt types after a certain point in the draft. Kirby is really the only one who comes close but even he was closer to a medium sized who got a lot of goals from lead and mark play.

 

[No SPIN]

That’s no my point at all... but ok

If you don’t understand that’s fine - but I noticed others have made the same point.

 

[loki04]

Lack of KPP depth is the recurring issue for mine throughout 2018 -2019. An example of that is Keeffe. Could of kept him for next to nothing and he probably would have been happy playing VFL 90% of the time - but offloaded him.

Would've been great to have him out there today. Likewise Finlayson had we taken the punt on him when he was available.

I suggested names like Casbolt, L Jones and Rowe as cheap pickups at the end of last year and was laughed at. Rowe was picked up as depth for St Kilda, Jones has been solid and Casboult has performed at both ends of the ground in 2019...

Casboult would probably have gotten a game at times over Cox this year. Or covered down back so Roughead played ruck forward.

Our repeated lack of KPP depth just comes down to poor list management.

Both are issues imo Whiskey.

 

[loki04]

How many players were better than Stevo last year. - can’t pick best player every draft.

C'mon on now Spinny, how many indigenous small forwards who are natural crumbers with evasiveness and timing as well as goal nous have we recruited under Hine?

It's almost more shallow than his last decades first round KPP list, which is bupkis outside Moore.

 

[loki04]

Don't really care if the talent is indigenous or not. Eddie Betts or Steven Milne (the player and not the personality) would be nice.

Yes but many more Eddie betts types in the indigenous community then there are Milnes/didaks out there. Its like the reverse situation of KPP.

They have a natural skill set that gravitates to that role (excelling at the role in fact) and not in a negative way before some knob jockey confuses observational facts with casual racism.

 

[sr36]

Yes but many more Eddie betts types in the indigenous community then there are Milnes/didaks out there. Its like the reverse situation of KPP.

They have a natural skill set that gravitates to that role (excelling at the role in fact) and not in a negative way before some knob jockey confuses observational facts with casual racism.

Balance, change of direction and spacial awareness do appear to be off the charts in many indigenous footballers. Equates to elusiveness and the ability to find and create a bit of time. I do think Callum is up there in those attributes.

 

[loki04]

I guess that main counterpoint was more towards nahnah's....observation.

Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

It doesn't matter if your Indigenous, or Australian or from Pluto. Talent is talent.

Key word there is ALL. No one has made a sweeping statement that all indigenous share the same talent or athletic profile BUT they do have high numbers of people who have similar athletic traits and a natural ability to learn kicking art with aplomb.

Just like not all Africans can run like Bolt but how many 100m finals have other races in them bugger all mostly made up of african descent runners.

The physical make up from 1 race to another is slightly different that is why we get generalisations, both positive and negative about each race. Like Africans and Pacific Islanders, have on average, more white twitch muscle fibres lending to better explosiveness and sport that suit it.
Caucasian people on average have more slow and neutral muscle fibres lending to long distance and endurance.
Now this doesn't mean that there aren't people of each race that have high white twitch Caucasians or low twitch Africans but rather they on average don't.

Thats not racism.

A racist comment is ALL indigenous go walk about in games, or all White men cant jump.

 

[Kappa]

Are you suggesting they arent as talented? Rioli x 2, Stack, Cameron (WCE), Ryan, B.Hill.

You know damn well the indigenous boys have highly desired attributes, pace, agility, class, xfactor, chasing/tackling, roving timing and goal sense.

Hine tends to opt for endurance battler types mid to late draft instead of higher talent ceilings but more work rate needed to built types.

Yes, by saying I think recruiters should prioritize talent over skin color I'm clearly saying that aboriginal kids are less talented than white kids.

We've picked guys like Daicos Abbott and Kirby late in drafts in the past few years, all of them being high risk high ceiling types. Clearly improved footskills in the midfield is something we could aim for this year

 

[loki04]

Yes, by saying I think recruiters should prioritize talent over skin color I'm clearly saying that aboriginal kids are less talented than white kids.

We've picked guys like Daicos Abbott and Kirby late in drafts in the past few years, all of them being high risk high ceiling types. Clearly improved footskills in the midfield is something we could aim for this year

What you said was like der no s**t sherlock thanks for playing captain ******* obvious type of statement that really didn't add anything to the discussion. My quip back at you was a satirical response to it.
Why bother saying something so inane and obvious, there is a dearth of that type in the team and on the list. Indigenous small forwards are usually found in every draft (this is why people are looking for increased recruiting here as they are accessible and add hi xfactor).
Hine has overlooked many indigenous talents over many years (Kayle Kirby was a predominantly lead and mark type not a traditional crumbing type he only did that occasionally), Abott again was more HFF and HBF then a small crumbing type.

 

[loki04]

Or more the fact that if Varcoe and Wells retire we don't have a single indigenous player on the list largely due to the fact we have a history of passing on them.. I'm not saying we are racist as a club I'm just saying we tend to pass on the indigenous small forwards for other players and it would be nice to have a few small forwards that can crumb outside of Stevo

Stevos crumbing isn't a typical of how he gets his bread and butter goals either, he's typically a lead and mark type (whether at the ball carrier or back to goals) who has the ability for the odd crumb.

When people talk crumbers they are talking specialist at the role like Leon Davis, Stephen Milne, Eddie Betts etc. not just about roving packs but the ability to create something from nothing in congestion, spot players others wouldn't and have the skill/ability to nail them inside the f50 arc.


Man I miss Leon.
This is the s**t we are talking about!

 

[No SPIN]

C'mon on now Spinny, how many indigenous small forwards who are natural crumbers with evasiveness and timing as well as goal nous have we recruited under Hine?

It's almost more shallow than his last decades first round KPP list, which is bupkis outside Moore.

If you are suggesting that Hine is purposely overlooking them - I can’t agree but would be happy for you to offer some evidence of such players overlooked when we were looking for small fwds.

Picked ATU last year, though not indigenous has some similar traits.

 

[nahnah]

If you don’t understand that’s fine - but I noticed others have made the same point.

No you just completely missed my point. Stack went undrafted, we could have taken him at pick 90 but we didn’t. That is my point. Stephenson is completely irrelevant, different draft, we didn’t pass on Stack to draft Stephenson

 

[loki04]

If you are suggesting that Hine is purposely overlooking them - I can’t agree but would be happy for you to offer some evidence of such players overlooked when we were looking for small fwds.

Picked ATU last year, though not indigenous has some similar traits.

We've had a need since Davis retired.
K.Ugle the only real *specialist* recruited as a rookie player and I'd argue a pick missing a few key attributes most indigenous players have.
Broomy was not selected as fwd pocket player but was re purposed there.
Kirby was not a crumbing specialist (Lead and mark type) neither was Abbott (HF/HB), JT was an inside mid re purposed, Blair is well Blair.
Daicos a winger/hff/small forward, has some attributes suited but I think will find his better suited up field.
Degoey, WHE and Stephenson are all medium talls whilst possessing good crumbing ability at times and when required, they are lead and mark types.
C.Brown played predominantly midfield at u18 level with stints up fwd, shows some ability on occassion for a well timed rove, my question does he have the creativity of top line crumbing specialists.

Yes true ATU has *some* similar attributes but maybe not the natural footy nous and creativity, wait and see I guess on that front.

Whether its a deliberate track taken or not I don't know, but the amount of time he has been in charge 15 drafts the amount of drafted indigenous small fwds reads a list of 1. You can not tell me there hasn't been ample talent in that many drafts where we have had opportunity but passed. Coincidence you reckon?

 

[No SPIN]

We've had a need since Davis retired.
K.Ugle the only real *specialist* recruited as a rookie player and I'd argue a pick missing a few key attributes most indigenous players have.
Broomy was not selected as fwd pocket player but was re purposed there.
Kirby was not a crumbing specialist (Lead and mark type) neither was Abbott (HF/HB), JT was an inside mid re purposed, Blair is well Blair.
Daicos a winger/hff/small forward, has some attributes suited but I think will find his better suited up field.
Degoey, WHE and Stephenson are all medium talls whilst possessing good crumbing ability at times and when required, they are lead and mark types.
C.Brown played predominantly midfield at u18 level with stints up fwd, shows some ability on occassion for a well timed rove, my question does he have the creativity of top line crumbing specialists.

Yes true ATU has *some* similar attributes but maybe not the natural footy nous and creativity, wait and see I guess on that front.

Whether its a deliberate track taken or not I don't know, but the amount of time he has been in charge 15 drafts the amount of drafted indigenous small fwds reads a list of 1. You can not tell me there hasn't been ample talent in that many drafts where we have had opportunity but passed. Coincidence you reckon?

Weren’t, Brad Dick, Kirby, Atu and Krakouer all in the last 15 trade periods? I’m not sure.
Maybe he is too conservative and is not alone on this as a recruiter - because many such players have stepped away from the game prematurely for a variety of reasons after being drafted.

It is clearly an issue and if your job depends on making the right choices then you become risk averse.

Or the issue could be simply explained by poor scouting - and that’s easily fixed.

PS: even Stack being on a short rein with Hardwick is instructive on this point.

 

[No SPIN]

No you just completely missed my point. Stack went undrafted, we could have taken him at pick 90 but we didn’t. That is my point. Stephenson is completely irrelevant, different draft, we didn’t pass on Stack to draft Stephenson

Go it - sorry for the misunderstanding.