Opinion Hinesight, Knightsight and Hindsight Nov 2012

[BPikkers]

By the way, does anyone know what's going on either Sier? Is he injured?

 

[Maggie Greg]

That is the 1st I heard of it and was Never Mentioned around Draft Time.

What Bad about De Goey?

You seem to Know Everything

I seem to know everything?!?!?!?

I am not going to elaborate on De Goey on the open board.
I know family friends of the Freeman family. He had a history of hamstring problems. Not as bad as what he had at Collingwood, but problems nonetheless.

 

[TheSierBear]

I seem to know everything?!?!?!?

I am not going to elaborate on De Goey on the open board.
I know family friends of the Freeman family. He had a history of hamstring problems. Not as bad as what he had at Collingwood, but problems nonetheless.

Haha.
'DeGoey's off field habbits'.
'Will not elabourate'. Can only assume he loves to do something that quite a few players in the naughties at WC used to do. Can you elabourate on Freeman's hammies?

 

[Knightmare]

I don't agree. Scharenberg was injured when drafted. Freeman had a history of hamstring injuries throughout his junior career.Moore was a father son, nothig to do with Ine. De Goey is average and has lifestyle issues which Hine should have sussed out. I was not talking about trading I was talking about drafting.

If as you say it is true that the recruiting department is under-resourced, then that is a knock on Eddie and Pert - that is a shameful state of affairs while we are wasting resources on non-core matters such as netball. Other clubs get injuries too look at the Bulldogs. But they can still play.

There was no suspicion that Scharenberg would do a knee. The concern was only ankle.

Freeman I'm not aware of having any hamstring issues upon getting drafted. There were no injury alarm bells around him at draft time.

I know nothing about De Goey's lifestyle issues. He seems committed on the field and is improving, and has among our better stoppages players already at the club, so in hindsight I have no issue to this point with our selection of De Goey.

The club are spending heavily for a netball team and a womens AFL team. It's just a shame the investment we once saw in the football department is no longer getting invested to the same degree, with the club not wanting to get taxed for it.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I don't agree. Scharenberg was injured when drafted. Freeman had a history of hamstring injuries throughout his junior career.Moore was a father son, nothig to do with Ine. De Goey is average and has lifestyle issues which Hine should have sussed out. I was not talking about trading I was talking about drafting.

If as you say it is true that the recruiting department is under-resourced, then that is a knock on Eddie and Pert - that is a shameful state of affairs while we are wasting resources on non-core matters such as netball. Other clubs get injuries too look at the Bulldogs. But they can still play.

DeGoey is average?
You lost me there.
Derek Hine is well regarded and respected as one of the better recruiters. This is known league wide, might not fit your world view, fair enough, but in the recruiting world Derek is up there.
I think the "in Hine we trust" thing a bit silly but that's surely only a fun thing overall.
Does not make him infallible but he is given the trade picks the club earns then trades etc.
In this respect we do fine.
I do think knightmare is spot on, we have too few in this important area.

Ps scharenberg had no known knee issues, feet issues yes where these were looked after by us.
But not sure any recruiter can predict knee injuries.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

I can't agree with this at all.

De Goey and Moore are hits. Scharenberg and Freeman had injuries they didn't have before getting selected. Hine last year adding Treloar/Howe/Aish did well and he did very well to salvage that Beams trade with an acceptable package.

Our issues have been with injuries/poor injury prevention and an inability to develop our mid-age players and an even greater inability to keep our veterans productive. Given this my blame goes first to our medical and fitness people. With a secondary blame to our coaching staff.

Our recruiting department is under-resourced with only four full time recruiters in total, and all things considered they're internally the one footballing area I give a pass to.

That's not to say they're flawless in what they're doing. They've too heavily turned over the list, cut veterans early and traded away too much experience for youth/picks which is a backward step. In terms of talent ID though, through the draft I still feel they're getting the job done and they're starting to do better with opposition talent ID which is actually a step in the right direction by our recruiters.

Fundamentally if our players continue getting hurt, and aren't healthy. Then coaches and recruiters both look pretty silly. But I'm not seeing either as the primary cause of our problems in this case.

What about recruiting too many of the same types. We have way too many midfielders on our list that forces De Goey to play as a forward, forces Taylor Adams to play off half back.

Our key position depth is poor, our best key position forward prospect is an American that has played less than 30 games total in aussie rules. And in defence, we don't have anyone in the VFL likely to come through - unless you are counting on Lachlie Keeffe, back from a year suspension to become an AFL regular (a longshot imo).

We have no small forwards after Elliott and Fasolo.

And I don't think the small/mid defender depth is good too, given we have had to put Adams and Howe in defense, which wasn't the intention at the start of the season.

Purely from a positional point of view, the make up of our list is way too top heavy on midfielders, way too bottom on other positions.

 

[TradeDraft]

The club are spending heavily for a netball team and a womens AFL team. It's just a shame the investment we once saw in the football department is no longer getting invested to the same degree, with the club not wanting to get taxed for it.

So they care More about the Netball and Women's Team then the AFL Side With them putting Money from that to those 2 things they want

 

[Knightmare]

What about recruiting too many of the same types. We have way too many midfielders on our list that forces De Goey to play as a forward, forces Taylor Adams to play off half back.

Our key position depth is poor, our best key position forward prospect is an American that has played less than 30 games total in aussie rules. And in defence, we don't have anyone in the VFL likely to come through - unless you are counting on Lachlie Keeffe, back from a year suspension to become an AFL regular (a longshot imo).

We have no small forwards after Elliott and Fasolo.

And I don't think the small/mid defender depth is good too, given we have had to put Adams and Howe in defense, which wasn't the intention at the start of the season.

Purely from a positional point of view, the make up of our list is way too top heavy on midfielders, way too bottom on other positions.

The club have mixed and matched fairly well, drafting and trading for needs consistently and gaining players who fill needs to a pretty good standard.

I feel overall it's been a case of we've had stronger success recruiting particular types of players than other types of players which is more where we're seeing the disparity.

The relative inbalances are up forward with too many marking targets and not enough ground level players. Then down back so many stoppers and not enough rebounders - which is made more pronounced by the injuries to our better rebounding backmen this year. Through the midfield our inside options are also much better and deeper than our outside options, having had greater success in drafting contested ballers over those more outside types.

The club will recruit based on their themes they go through each season, and look to meet those most pressing list needs this offseason as they tend to do more offseasons than not.

So they care More about the Netball and Women's Team then the AFL Side With them putting Money from that to those 2 things they want

To have a successful netball and successful womens AFL team, for those teams to take off, it requires a highly successful AFL Collingwood side, for the fan bases for those teams to be significant from their inception.

So while it's fine we're diversifying and expanding into new areas, we need to also simultaneously be great at what we're actually as an AFL club there to do - which is to win games of footy more weeks than not and be a contending team.

 

[ZEV]

Our recruiting department is under-resourced with only four full time recruiters in total, and all things considered they're internally the one footballing area I give a pass to.

That's not to say they're flawless in what they're doing. They've too heavily turned over the list, cut veterans early and traded away too much experience for youth/picks which is a backward step. In terms of talent ID though, through the draft I still feel they're getting the job done and they're starting to do better with opposition talent ID which is actually a step in the right direction by our recruiters.

Doing a remarkable job...

Grundy - First round pick from SA
Witts - NSW academy taken from rugby as a child and given the best facilities and coaching in the country
Cox - Genetic freak recruited from obscure US college

all got pantsed by gawn who went to the same bloody high school as hines kids

 

[TradeDraft]

To have a successful netball and successful womens AFL team, for those teams to take off, it requires a highly successful AFL Collingwood side, for the fan bases for those teams to be significant from their inception.

So while it's fine we're diversifying and expanding into new areas, we need to also simultaneously be great at what we're actually as an AFL club there to do - which is to win games of footy more weeks than not and be a contending team.

So with the Side doing so badly. How will that Effect the Start of the Womens AFL Team and the Netball Side?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Doing a remarkable job...

Grundy - First round pick from SA
Witts - NSW academy taken from rugby as a child and given the best facilities and coaching in the country
Cox - Genetic freak recruited from obscure US college

all got pantsed by gawn who went to the same bloody high school as hines kids

One game does not a point make.

However delightful the point is painted

 

[ZEV]

One game does not a point make.

However delightful the point is painted

I guess when your 5th pick in a draft is 34 your going to nail one eventually....

Im in the Hine/Buckley support group. I think we readily forget how the 10-11-12 teams were subject to TWO new teams targeting every player we had, FREE agency and how many compromised drafts.

 

[Apex36]

I don't agree. Scharenberg was injured when drafted.

Which he was treated for and has had no issues with since. If you're trying to form a relationship between Scharenberg's foot injuries and his ACL's you're either dumb, or you're deliberately being disingenuous regarding his injuries to suit your argument.

Freeman had a history of hamstring injuries throughout his junior career.

Can you direct us to any records of said injury history? Recruiters will generally do their homework on these things, and everything I've seen has indicated that Freeman had no serious issues during his junior career.

Moore was a father son, nothig to do with Ine.

He still had to deem he was worth a top 10 pick, so yes, it had a little bit to do with Hine.

De Goey is average and has lifestyle issues which Hine should have sussed out.

Yet he is statistically the best performed midfielder of his draft year. Amazing that people are willing to heavily pot a second year kid who's so far been superior to his peers. And can you elaborate on these 'lifestyle issues' you're referring to?

 

[Unknown Identity]

I have a mate i play cricket with that went to school with Nath Freeman and he always had little niggles with his hammies.. that info is 100% correct.

 

[Jasper84]

I don't agree. Scharenberg was injured when drafted. Freeman had a history of hamstring injuries throughout his junior career.Moore was a father son, nothig to do with Ine. De Goey is average and has lifestyle issues which Hine should have sussed out. I was not talking about trading I was talking about drafting.

If as you say it is true that the recruiting department is under-resourced, then that is a knock on Eddie and Pert - that is a shameful state of affairs while we are wasting resources on non-core matters such as netball. Other clubs get injuries too look at the Bulldogs. But they can still play.

It's usually polite to pick up your hand grenade before you leave the room.

 

[Maggie Greg]

Which he was treated for and has had no issues with since. If you're trying to form a relationship between Scharenberg's foot injuries and his ACL's you're either dumb, or you're deliberately being disingenuous regarding his injuries to suit your argument.

Can you direct us to any records of said injury history? Recruiters will generally do their homework on these things, and everything I've seen has indicated that Freeman had no serious issues during his junior career.
He still had to deem he was worth a top 10 pick, so yes, it had a little bit to do with Hine.
Yet he is statistically the best performed midfielder of his draft year. Amazing that people are willing to heavily pot a second year kid who's so far been superior to his peers. And can you elaborate on these 'lifestyle issues' you're referring to?

Scharenberg had to have bones removed from his feet and the Pies still drafted him. When they have injury concerns as juniors rarely do they escape continuing injury as adults. This kid is injury prone as he has proven.

Moore was a no brainer, Hine didn't do anything even you and I could have done in selecting him. De Goey had to pull his head in as did a number of other younger and some senior players.

As for Freeman I see someone else has supported me. Hine stuffed up on this big time. What about Broomhead? Kennedy? Grundy? All pretty much going nowhere. End of rebuild.

And you can stop with the personal abuse. If you want to abuse anyone direct it to some Collingwood officials and players.

 

[Maggie Greg]

It's usually polite to pick up your hand grenade before you leave the room.

Hand Grenade? Is that what the call the truth these days.

 

[Apex36]

Scharenberg had to have bones removed from his feet and the Pies still drafted him. When they have injury concerns as juniors rarely do they escape continuing injury as adults. This kid is injury prone as he has proven.

So you legitimately think that his feet issues and his ACL injuries are correlated? There is absolutely no evidence to support that theory, just your misguided attempts to link the two. Anyone with a scrap of medical knowledge would tear your theory to shreds.

Moore was a no brainer, Hine didn't do anything even you and I could have done in selecting him. De Goey has to pull his head in as do a number of other younger and some senior players. You can pm me if you want more info but I will not post it on the open board. You can certainly pot any player who doesn't prepare properly.

I couldn't give a toss what our players do outside of the football club if they're performing well on the field to be honest. DeGoey is currently performing very well for a second year player, and is statistically the best performed mid of his draft class thus far. If you aren't willing to post things on the open board, then you're obviously wary of slander, which means you're not confident in your info. Not worth listening to via PM.

As for Freeman I see someone else has supported me. Hine stuffed up on this big time. What about Broomhead? Kennedy? Grundy? All pretty much going nowhere. End of rebuild.

Even with supposed niggles, there's no way anyone could have predicted an injury that would keep him sidelined for what's looking like 3 years.
Broomhead - Horror run with injury and illness. Had no significant injury history before being drafted. Showed that he can be an important part of our best 22 last year when he had a sustained run before injuring his shoulder.
Kennedy - You mean the Kennedy who has been best 22 for Melbourne all year and tore us to shreds yesterday with 29 disposals and a goal? That Kennedy? Yeah. Nobody to blame for that one but our coaching staff and selection committe.
Grundy - Are you legit? Grundy is a baby in terms of ruckmen, and he's been thrown in as our number 1 ruck way earlier than would happen normally. Let's have a discussion about him in a couple of years when he's the same age as Gawn is now and he's just entering his prime.

And you can stop with the personal abuse. If you want to abuse anyone direct it to some Collingwood officials and players.

Hardly abuse. If you're being dumb I'll call it as I see it though. I'm more incluned to believe you're being disingenuous rathern than dumb with your Scharenberg theory to try and strengthen your argument though. So far your arguments have amounted to naught.
No recruiter is going to have a perfect record, but for the most part, Hine has been very good with his selections, especially if what KM says is true and our recruiting dept is under staffed and under funded.

 

[TheSierBear]

 

[Maggie Greg]

So you legitimately think that his feet issues and his ACL injuries are correlated? There is absolutely no evidence to support that theory, just your misguided attempts to link the two. Anyone with a scrap of medical knowledge would tear your theory to shreds.

I couldn't give a toss what our players do outside of the football club if they're performing well on the field to be honest. DeGoey is currently performing very well for a second year player, and is statistically the best performed mid of his draft class thus far. If you aren't willing to post things on the open board, then you're obviously wary of slander, which means you're not confident in your info. Not worth listening to via PM.


Even with supposed niggles, there's no way anyone could have predicted an injury that would keep him sidelined for what's looking like 3 years.
Broomhead - Horror run with injury and illness. Had no significant injury history before being drafted. Showed that he can be an important part of our best 22 last year when he had a sustained run before injuring his shoulder.
Kennedy - You mean the Kennedy who has been best 22 for Melbourne all year and tore us to shreds yesterday with 29 disposals and a goal? That Kennedy? Yeah. Nobody to blame for that one but our coaching staff and selection committe.
Grundy - Are you legit? Grundy is a baby in terms of ruckmen, and he's been thrown in as our number 1 ruck way earlier than would happen normally. Let's have a discussion about him in a couple of years when he's the same age as Gawn is now and he's just entering his prime.

Hardly abuse. If you're being dumb I'll call it as I see it though. I'm more incluned to believe you're being disingenuous rathern than dumb with your Scharenberg theory to try and strengthen your argument though. So far your arguments have amounted to naught.
No recruiter is going to have a perfect record, but for the most part, Hine has been very good with his selections, especially if what KM says is true and our recruiting dept is under staffed and under funded.

Again with your ad hominem abuse.

If you recruit an injury prone player and he ends up being injury prone, I would call that dumb. Scharenberg had SERIOUS problems with his feet. Now he has had 2 ACLs both of which were no contact injuries. We may as well start calling him Lee Walker. He has been nothing but a disastrous pick 6.

I see you dropped the Freeman abuse of me. A disaster at Pick 10.

Grundy is the world's tallest half forward flanker. He strike fear into no one except Jarrod Witts. His best year was 2013. A disaster at pick 18.

Kennedy is hopeless. He did some good things yesterday but a lot of s**t things like at Collingwood. Not a first rounder's a-hole. And more relevant, GONE from Collingwood. A waste at pick 19.

Broomhead is a head case. Four seasons of tripe. Good player improve, he has not moved on iota from his first season and will be gone by this season's end. A waste at pick 20.

That is 5 first round draft picks wasted by Hine.

If a player doesn't prepare properly off field to be at his best physically for senior football, then you SHOULD CARE what they do off the field. Only an uninformed fanboy wouldn't.

De Goey should take a leaf out of his former team mates' books, Phillips and Crocker. THEY are fully professional. DE Goey let down his whole team as did Adams. At least Adams has some points on the board but it was laughable of a bloated Mick McGuane to put him up for captaincy NOW. He has to show he has earned it and that wont happed overnight.

 

[Dogs_Playing_Poker]

So they care More about the Netball and Women's Team then the AFL Side With them putting Money from that to those 2 things they want

Dare say the womens team has been playing all year!

 

[Saintly Viewed]

 

[4#Didak#4]

Doing a remarkable job...

Grundy - First round pick from SA
Witts - NSW academy taken from rugby as a child and given the best facilities and coaching in the country
Cox - Genetic freak recruited from obscure US college

all got pantsed by gawn who went to the same bloody high school as hines kids

Well you can't compare any of them with Gawn.

Gawn is an experienced ruckman who has been in the system 7 years. He has only just started becoming truly productive last year and this should be the measuring stick for the guys you mentioned. Ruckmen take a long time to develop and Gawn highlights how much more development those guys need. Witts is still a couple of years behind Gawn. Gawn a few years back was pretty much useless and in fact reminds me of Witts in a few ways. Witts needs to start producing next year consistently, but we forget he is still a work in progress. Grundy is a long way ahead of Gawn at the same time and I am not even going to mention Cox in comparisons as anyone expecting him to come in and beat up on a guy like Gawn is truly dreaming.

Gawn got drafted in 2009, the same year we used a similar pick to draft a guy called Luke Ball. The same year we recruited a guy called Darren Jolly. Both were key contributors to a premiership so I feel Hine is pretty well ahead on that score.

 

[TradeDraft]

Hand Grenade? Is that what the call the truth these days.

But you have NOTHING to Back up your Claims

 

[Anzacday]

I have a mate i play cricket with that went to school with Nath Freeman and he always had little niggles with his hammies.. that info is 100% correct.

Now you tell us