Opinion Hinesight v Knightsight v Hindsight 2018

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#27
Yes. It is especially weird in light of ASADA's stated timings in it's rule violation management process.

https://www.asada.gov.au/rules-and-violations/rule-violation-management-process

  • The ‘A’ sample notification provides the athlete with a date, time and location of where the ‘B’ sample will be analysed. Generally, a ‘B’ sample analysis occurs a week after the ‘A’ sample notification is received by the athlete. The athlete is advised that they, or a representative, or both can attend the analysis of their ‘B’ sample. In the event they do not attend, the laboratory will appoint a witness to observe the analysis.
  • ASADA will first notify the athlete of the ‘B’ sample analysis result as soon as possible after advice is received from the laboratory. Generally, this can occur about a week after the analysis. ASADA will then notify the national sporting organisation, International Federation, WADA and the Australian Sports Commission (if required).
And is it unfair to say to them, you have completely gone against your own
processing rules we seek case dismissed?

Doubt they will agree but rule of law and all that.

Ofcourse we may not be privy to all the real details.
 

Knightmare

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Thread starter #28
Always a bit nervy arguing with an expert, but I think Murray has the raw talent and tools to make it...he has clearly lacked the application and work ethic.

We paid a lot for him, and one might argue that is a sunk cost, but we have seen in the past (Thomas, Swan, Wellingham) that misdemeanours can sometimes act as a catalyst to propel the player to a whole new level of ability and consistency. I’d back the club that they have assessed is character as being able to achieve this. I guess wait and see
I like Murray's game. Offensively, he has the game to make the grade.

If he's out for 4 years though, I'd rather have someone else on the list during that time and bring Murray back.
 

sideswipe

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#29
That's timings of b sample results. Its not the timing of the hearing. How do you know he hasn’t received b sample results?
I have been reliably informed that he is still waiting for the B. Believe me, I am more surprised than you at the time taken.

Take a look at the guidelines. Once an athlete is notified of a positive B, ASADA then notifies the AFL, etc. Then it goes to the Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel to determine. On past performance, someone somewhere will leak well before an ADRVP is appointed.
 
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#30
I have been reliably informed that he is still waiting for the B. Believe me, I am more surprised than you at the time taken.

Take a look at the guidelines. Once an athlete is notified of a positive B, ASADA then notifies the AFL, etc. Then it goes to the Panel to determine Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel to determine. On past performance, someone somewhere will leak well before an ADRVP is appointed.
Yes samples have a tendency to leak.
 

Knightmare

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Thread starter #31
On this only time will tell.

Ofcourse all of the 6 or so players selected (clubs yours) could be less than adequate or a couple or more could be fine additions.

To me Kelly in the interesting watch (and Gown) because the key positions are simply much more difficult to find and get.

If for example Quaynor is a bust, there’s Appelby and others who fill up anyway. Maybe just at a medium level but you can be fixing a hole more easily.

Ofcourse if I’m not mistaken you would not have taken Beams as presented (two picks)?

This is where the draft is good to couple with the trade period.
Beams whilst not list need certainly enters as A grade and high end talent. Even for say 3 or 4 years.

Beams, Quaynor, Kelly are our main pick ups. Support act is Atu Bosanavulagi and two Irish.
And Roughead for depth, in case scenario.
I was not in favour of the Beams trade. The offer was too much relative to what those picks should be able to get via trade if the club want to go the immediate route.

Beams would have if I was drafting = McFadyen or West or 2 of Jarrod Cameron, Bailey Williams and Curtis Taylor with the 2019 first round pick still to come. Or that 2019 pick could have been used as part of another trade had the right trade been out there. I'd take those combinations of guys to Beams.

If the Pies really wanted another mid if Beams wasn't to join. Jarryd Lyons for a late pick would have been a much better value option. He's as a stoppage player actually better than Beams but not as damaging forward of centre - Beams is better overall, but not by a lot with Lyons in 2018 Gold Coast's clear best player. Aaron Hall another. Not only high impact but productive with high impact. For late picks, they would have been terrific.
 

sr36

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#32
I like Murray's game. Offensively, he has the game to make the grade.

If he's out for 4 years though, I'd rather have someone else on the list during that time and bring Murray back.
I like Murray's game too, but think he needs a couple of preseasons in the gym building up the strength to get himself out of trouble and stand up in a tackle if he wants to continue to take the game on the way he does. Obviously also needs to work on disposal and decision making.
 

sideswipe

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#33
And is it unfair to say to them, you have completely gone against your own
processing rules we seek case dismissed?

Doubt they will agree but rule of law and all that.

Ofcourse we may not be privy to all the real details.
Not sure that would work, not even with Denis Denuto representing. Problem is if the B sample is +ve, the delay has provided Murray with no real detriment, ie. he has effectively already begun to serve time - and he is still getting paid. If it came back negative and he has arguably missed a GF as a result of the delay, then that might be a bit of fun.
 

Knightmare

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Thread starter #34
I would have thought if we kept 18 you would have gone with RCD. Happy you did this year. I was going to post a mock/phantom version
No trades I have you taking RCD (and of course Noah Gown later) 18, 51, 56, 57
Collingwood would have been a pick too late for RCD so that wasn't an option which is why I didn't mention it. Richmond finished below Collingwood after finals.
 

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#36
I was not in favour of the Beams trade. The offer was too much relative to what those picks should be able to get via trade if the club want to go the immediate route.

Beams would have if I was drafting = McFadyen or West or 2 of Jarrod Cameron, Bailey Williams and Curtis Taylor with the 2019 first round pick still to come. Or that 2019 pick could have been used as part of another trade had the right trade been out there. I'd take those combinations of guys to Beams.

If the Pies really wanted another mid if Beams wasn't to join. Jarryd Lyons for a late pick would have been a much better value option. He's as a stoppage player actually better than Beams but not as damaging forward of centre - Beams is better overall, but not by a lot with Lyons in 2018 Gold Coast's clear best player. Aaron Hall another. Not only high impact but productive with high impact. For late picks, they would have been terrific.
Jarryd Lyons 26, been good last few years but just not in the same paddock as Beams for me.

Aaron Hall 28, nice medium talent. He’ll enjoy North but again not in the same discussion as Beams.

Both in Beams age bracket and no keenness from me. Just not in the same league.

As an aside hasn’t Gold Coast been gutted like a fish.

Poor Lukosius and Rankine.
They’ll be badly curtailed by going there. Or they’ll be the pillars to build s strong team. I’m predicting they’ll be leaving GC when they can.
 

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Knightmare

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Thread starter #37
Jarryd Lyons 26, been good last few years but just not in the same paddock as Beams for me.

Aaron Hall 28, nice medium talent. He’ll enjoy North but again not in the same discussion as Beams.

Both in Beams age bracket and no keenness from me. Just not in the same league.

As an aside hasn’t Gold Coast been gutted like a fish.

Poor Lukosius and Rankine.
They’ll be badly curtailed by going there. Or they’ll be the pillars to build s strong team. I’m predicting they’ll be leaving GC when they can.
Gold Coast don't have much left. Witts. Harbrow. They're the good established players. Swallow/Miller/Hanley/Martin/Weller all ok enough without being fantastic. Harbrow is the only guy who on any team would be a walkup start.
All youth otherwise and guys you hope develop otherwise.

Couldn't be a worse place for either Lukosius or Rankine to land.
 

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#38
Gold Coast don't have much left. Witts. Harbrow. They're the good established players. Swallow/Miller/Hanley/Martin/Weller all ok enough without being fantastic. Harbrow is the only guy who on any team would be a walkup start.
All youth otherwise and guys you hope develop otherwise.

Couldn't be a worse place for either Lukosius or Rankine to land.
The great irony for being a brilliant junior.
You go to a low club.

Except next season with the best junior going to Adelaide with pick 1 :D
 

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#39
The thing with Hines boys is that they are a perfect list fit for us, as well as the first two being considerably more highly rated than our picks. Add to that, we know their character well already, thus significantly reducing that risk.

On Quaynor, Kelly and KMs ratings, the vibe I get is that KM is pretty data driven. Defensive data is nowhere near as well recorded as offensive data, thus he's likely to underrate defenders whose first focus is to nullify their man. Apologies if this is an unfair opiniin KM.
It’s an industry wide issue and our game’s analytics have yet to adapt to defensive mechanisms. For instance the NFL goes as far as measuring separation distances of receivers so no doubt they do the same for corners. I seriously doubt the same metrics exist in the AFL. Score launches are another and whilst that data is out there I doubt KM can access it for underagers because it’s weirdly restricted.
 

Knightmare

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Thread starter #40
The great irony for being a brilliant junior.
You go to a low club.

Except next season with the best junior going to Adelaide with pick 1 :D
Carlton won't be the worst for Adelaide to get the top pick.

Gold Coast should be by a fair margin. St Kilda probably is also worse. A few others could - Dogs or any of those teams not top 12 in 2018. Depends how much the Blues improve.

I have that pick at roughly 3 at the moment.
 

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#41
Carlton won't be the worst for Adelaide to get the top pick.

Gold Coast should be by a fair margin. St Kilda probably is also worse. A few others could - Dogs or any of those teams not top 12 in 2018. Depends how much the Blues improve.

I have that pick at roughly 3 at the moment.
If you could tale any Carlton player to Collingwood who would it be?

NB: excluding Curnow, Cripps and any 2018 just drafted player?
 
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#42
My concern with the Beams trade was almost entirely borne from feeling we overpaid, but given we didn't go into deficit for two top 30 players I think a 2019 first rounder was a good payment.
 

Knightmare

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Thread starter #43
If you could tale any Carlton player to Collingwood who would it be?

NB: excluding Curnow, Cripps and any 2018 just drafted player?
If I could add anyone from Carlton? Other than Cripps/Curnow?

Weitering would be the guy. He has the scope still (while developed the past couple of years hasn't happened as expected) to become one of the best key defenders in the competition. Maybe even the best with good development.

Carlton have a decent enough 15 or so. A bit like Geelong, it's a shallow list with that their major issue - though they've added a number of good pieces over the offseason and others back from injury, so they'll be more competitive.
 

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#44
The quandary with Murray is that his B sample hasn't come back yet. This in and of itself is nothing short of extraordinary. ASADA estimates that it usually takes about a fortnight from an A+ before a B sample is returned - allowing the player a week to request the B and another week for the B to be tested.

Whilst it is a side issue to this thread, this delay in the return of the B is extraordinary. And somewhat mysterious. I cannot think of a good reason why the B sample result has taken so long to be made public. Who knows? Maybe ASADA has a chain of evidence problem with the B??

Onto Murray's position on our list - putting him onto the rookie list was our best option for now (behind retaining on the primary list). Whilst he is awaiting the B, the only way we get him off our list is to pay him out his full contract. And (exactly the same as the Wells potential payout - hi Scodog10 , still waiting for your acknowledgment on this point), if we were to free up a 2019 list spot, his termination pay goes into 2018 salary cap. So maybe we couldn't do it even if we wanted because we are already up to pussy's bow. I think the club's only choice was to re-draft him onto the rookie list, keep paying him for now in line with his contract and then if he ends up copping a big suspension, the club has the option to terminate him at that time without any further pay.
It suggests to me there may be an issue with the investigation. There was a sample or lab error, sampling procedures weren't processed, chain of custody not maintained. Or that the lawyers are trying to pick holes in these things. Could be a number of things.
 

sideswipe

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#46
It suggests to me there may be an issue with the investigation. There was a sample or lab error, sampling procedures weren't processed, chain of custody not maintained. Or that the lawyers are trying to pick holes in these things. Could be a number of things.
Could be - and here's hoping it is something that gets Murray off the hook.

But Occam's Razor says that the most likely reason is for the delay is that ASADA are staffed by a bunch of monkeys who couldn't organize sex in a monkey brothel if they walked in carrying a bag of bananas. Apologies to any monkeys hurt by this link to ASADA.

No doubt dial-a-quote Richard "Did you know I ran ASADA" Ings will pipe up again soon on the topic.
 

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#47
No doubt dial-a-quote Richard "Did you know I ran ASADA" Ings will pipe up again soon on the topic.
Ah the media will never fail to disappoint and go to the=lazy dial a quotes they have on speed dial.

Richard Ings. - Drugs ASADA
Greg Barton - Terrorism
A Galbaly for any law matters as long as it’s a Galbaly
Barry Humphries - heritage matters especially if Camberwell
Greg Craven - constitution
The Patrician the late Hugh Worth - less anything to do with animals (haven’t seen anyone since)
The late Bruce Ruxton - anything RSL or wanting a cheap controversy over something Australian
Hoffa Corfe - Collingwood stereotypes and controversial straight to Joffa
 

sideswipe

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#48
Ah the media will never fail to disappoint and go to the=lazy dial a quotes they have on speed dial.

Richard Ings. - Drugs ASADA
Greg Barton - Terrorism
A Galbaly for any law matters as long as it’s a Galbaly
Barry Humphries - heritage matters especially if Camberwell
Greg Craven - constitution
The Patrician the late Hugh Worth - less anything to do with animals (haven’t seen anyone since)
The late Bruce Ruxton - anything RSL or wanting a cheap controversy over something Australian
Hoffa Corfe - Collingwood stereotypes and controversial straight to Joffa
Yes. But what is even worse (to me anyway) is when journos publish tweets from nobodies to somehow convey a picture of "wholesale community outrage/support" on some particular issue.
 
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