Hird or Carey ?

[Dan26]

I think most people would agree that these two champions are the best two players in the league. Apologies to Buckley, Crawford, Grant, Harvey etc, etc, but Hird and Carey are in a class of their own.

So, who would you rather have ?

Being an Essendon fan, people will no doubt accuse me of Bomber bias, but I'd take Hird.

It's difficult for me to justify why, because Carey is an absolute champion in every sense of the word.

BUT, Hird is the complete packae. Hird has so much time. When he gets near the ball, time seems to stand still. His ability to win a "hard ball get", when the ball is at ground level and two players are contesting is the best in the league (including Carey).

Hird is simply not beaten one on one.

His marking is awesome. What makes Hird a great mark is his reading of the play. Carey relys moe on his strength. Hird also runs all day, something which Carey is not necessarily required to do (although I'll admit, he does cover a fair bit of ground)

Hird's stats on the weekend of 35 possessions, and 12 marks is more than what Carey would get. At least possession wise it is. Hird also kicked two goals.

Carey has a bigger and more imposing precense, but Hird has other qualities that I just listed which would leave me to choose Hird over Carey.

Please I am NOT downgrading Carey at all. He is an awesome player, one of the greatest of all time. But my opinion (and it's just my opinion) is that Hird is the player I'd rather have in my team if I had to choose.

Thoughts ?

 

[Grendel]

Carey.

Actually I rate Voss as high as Hird and both slightly better than Buckley, why? No solid reason I just feel that they are both more team players than Bucks, who seems to get jacked of with his teamates sometimes and I dont think that that is a good thing from a captain of a club.

Its bias Dan and thats fine, Jase was better than Plugger. Dermie WAS better than Kernahan,The Rat was better than Weigtman.

I could get arguments in pretty much all those cases and I would never not admit to being right, which by the way I am.

Bias is fine in footy. Its what it is all about.

For me Carey. Can do everything Hird can and then some. When is Carey beaten one out?

Hird,Bucks,Voss,and Kouta (who could just about be going up to Carey level much as it pains me to admit,going on what he has done this season, bloody Carlton) sit below on the 2nd level.

Then the Crawfs,Grants,Harveys most teams have at least one stand out, eg White at the Eagles in form he is a terrific player though not much is written about him over here.

No Carey for me, not by much but by enough.

 

[Eagle_Fan]

White? I'm surprised you picked him out. Too bad he won't be 'in form' (or even playing) for another month or so... His injury is much of the reason Scotty can't get near the footy. Whites delivery is supurb.
Personally I'd say Dean Kemp. An awesome, and somewhat underated footballer....
[We are so screwed this season. Your young Hawks are looking good though. Good luck for the season, but not on Friday! Should be a great game?]

Back on topic however, I really don't know. Hirds consistency, character, and smooth skills with Careys ability to fire up his team and turn a match.... hard call. I'd probably say Hird, but then again I don't like Carey.

 

[The Dutchman!]

Over the past decade because of his far more considerable playing time/ contribution due to being 3-4 years older and not out with long term injuries AND of course his amazing talents in non-GF's: Carey.

But as of right now and for the rest of their careers: Jimmy James. I mean, the guy look capable of anything... for years (fingers x'd)

Grendel, I go along with you on Voss being the only one other than Carey who can live with James at their best - but it is equally sad that he looks to be in trouble injury wise.

But Bung-hole being better than Plugger???? Pleasssseee - have a look at the 85 GF when they weren't playing him at FF - very amusing.

Dunstall played in champion teams pretty much his entire career - Plugger carried the Saints and then the Swans, kicked more goals and did a lot more damage to Peter Caven's (should that read Cave-in's) face.

Dutch

 

[Grendel]

Dutch, 85 was his first year, a little kindness please.

As to all the career?

Plugger played the last part of his on a tin pot ground with very good players around him, (they made finals pretty regular), never passed a ball in his life (slight overstatement but not by much), selfish on the field blew up and cost games by being suspended amd made those bloody awful "yeah yeah" adds instead of going blad gracefully like some of us have (running my fingers through my scalp) so that HAS to count against him.

Jase, total pro, never lost his cool, team came first in all things, played the last five years in a average team (we were shocking for a few seasons there too, I mean very poor and I hate admitting that)he got us into finals series we had no right to be in virtually by himself, with nearly no forward support and on crook knees. To top it of (and this isnt an eexaggeration) gave away at least 300 goals to teamates in better postions. He would have chewed the record without the knee reco, and Lockett would never have got the publicity he did. And he only did a comb over!!!

ps watch his game in 86 when the merger was on, maybe the best he ever played for us, won the game for us on his own. Maybe saved the club simply superb.

Lockett more talent, Dunstall better player. Temprament is important and Jas had the best ive ever seen.

Still doesnt stop me from thinking Carey is better the Jimmy boy though

 

[The Dutchman!]

I will give him this Grendel...

In a dignity match-up between "yeah yeah" and "comb over" - its a tight race but I'll give it to the comb over every time. I say either do the Timmy Watson thing or shave it all off.

I know how awesome Bung 'ol was - we were on the end of it a shedload. I also respect the man for playing with dodgy knees for years and for being unselfish, and for keeping the weight down for years.

But I reckon if plugger had played for Hawthorn and been feed by your midfield - and not been able to play "lone tough guy" with Dermie around - well he could have kicked anything.

HAs Jase sold the Saloon in Toorak Rd yet?

 

[Rooboy 96]

Carey plays every week against 2 or 3 or 4 opponents hanging off him, does Hird? end of debate.

 

[Pessimistic]

I'd Choose neither. Give me Spider Everitt anyday as the replacement for Fish when He retires.

As for the tired old best FF argument. some old coach on the radio once said I'd get Ablett if I needed to draw a crowd, Plugger if I needed to win one game more than anything but I'd Get Piggy If I nneded someone to play all season and win a flag

Shouldn't we now be discussing Thompson v Lloyd v Fevola ?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96:
Carey plays every week against 2 or 3 or 4 opponents hanging off him

Funny, Robran seemed like only *one* player last saturday.....

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Good point Pessimistic

Lets consign Lockett, Dunstall and Ablett to history where they can take their plaes along side the likes of Coventry, Pratt, Coleman, Hudson, Capper etc etc

On a more contempory note I think Matthew Lloyd is a good full forward but he gets far too many free kicks for my liking. Guys like Lockett would be lucky to get as many in a season as this diver does during a quarter.

Lloyds often overlooked teamate Scott Lucas is easily as effective, he does not quite have the same marking ability but he is very accurate and I rate his ground work as better than Lloyd. However on his day Boris Bewick is better than either.

Of the others in the game at the moment Nathan Thompson and Brett Fevola are the stand-out young talents while Anthony Rocca just seems to get better and better with every game.

Jarrod Molloy and Scott Cummings are two 'old-style' FFs who can still really turn it on when they have to and the great but aging Tony Modra still has what it takes I think.

 

[Shinboners]

Last year, I would have agreed 100% with Bloodstained Angel about Lloyd conning free kicks out of the umpires, but this year, it's gone the other way and he's not getting a fair go. But still, with all the hype over his "free kicks", you'd think that 90% of his goals came that way. The thing about Lloyd is that not only is he a strong mark, but he plays well off the ground. Players like Scott Cummings and Jason Heatley need to take marks or they're completely useless. I haven't seen enough of Fevola to comment, but players like Nathan Thompson and Trent Croad also seem to have the same potential as Lloyd for being more than the old one dimensional full forward. As for Anthony Rocca, I admire the way he uses his strength to help his teammates.....Barry Hall could learn a lesson there on focussed agression. Over at North, we have Adam Lange and Evan Hewitt earmarked.

The Carey vs Hird argument.....look, I'm biased here and I'll stand behind the North captain. But I'll be interested to see how the coaches use these two in round 13. As has been well documented, Carey has been playing plenty of defence/midfield this season and Hird can play midfield....what price that these two will be running against each other as midfielders? I'd love to see how that would pan out.

 

[Pessimistic]

You reminded me about Jarrod Molloy - Hes pretty impressive in full flight even if he hasn't been able to put many games together.

To see him kicking goals with one or two players hanging off him is quite speecial

 

[Dave]

BA
good point about Lucas - he's been pretty much overlooked since he broke his leg. What I like about him is that he keeps his feet better than Lloyd.

 

[servo]

Bets past full forward i agree completely, Ablett for excitement, Plugger for one off brilliance and Piggy for consistency.

Current FF, LLoyd, no comparison.

Greatest player out of Hird & Carey Hmmmmmm. You all know I think Carey should be rubbed out at least twice a year & Hird has become injury prone. If Carey can continue to get away with his thuggery I would prefer him in my team. If the thuggery catches up with him then I would prefer Buckly who I rate alongside Hird but he is rarely injured.

 

[gocatsgo]

Hird is the better in my opinion. He's missed the good part of three years and has come back with no apparent problems. I think he is playing better now than he did in 1996 when he won the Brownlow.

Unfortunately for Carey, he has had to single handedly carry a side on his back and has been good enough to win 2 flags. But remember, Hird also won a flag in 1993.

I think the quality that James Hird posseses that puts him ahead of Carey is fairness, when was the last time you saw Hird question a call?

I think Wayne Carey falls into the Gary Ablett category (no, not that he is a drug taking loser) but he has carried a team on his own and some times lets his frustrations run out.

I believe that history will view Carey and Hird along side one-another, because I'm sure James Hird will captain a premiership team soon.

 

[James23]

There's a good reason people talk more about Lloyd than Lucas. Scotty is a good footballer and will probably get better, but can you name one match he's played where he's been the difference between Essendon winning and losing? As for Lloydy keeping his feet, he has done it often enough to kick some magnificent goals; those two in the last quarter of the prelim, final, rd 17 v North, just to name a few.

 

[Dave]

James, chill, I barrack for the dons too. I don't have too many problems with Lloydy but I do beleive the way he plays leads him to go to ground too often.

As for Lucas winning games versus Lloyd, think on this. The players up the ground getting him the ball contribute as much as any FF to a team winning, as they (the FF's) are usually the first to point out

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by Dave:
Funny, Robran seemed like only *one* player last saturday.....

Dave, Watch when we play Essendon this year.
By the way how many goals did Carey kick last week? was it 6, no wonder other coaches are not as stupid as Ayres and play more then one player on him, truely the greatest ever, enjoy it whilst it lasts, there will never be any better, mark my words.

 

[Dave]

What, like the Ansett Cup GF when Fletcher played on him?

BTW he might be the best going around at the moment, but he aint the best there's ever been or will be

 

[Longjohn]

what was Wallis doing?

 

[Rooboy 96]

Thanks Longjohn, exactly what I was talking about.
Dave, go to a game boy don't sit aat home watching it on the box.

PS gutsy move by Hird that night trying to take out Harvey, who went off injured.

 

[Cotizone]

Just pray Carey lasts % games won by north with Carey 70%, Without him drops to 48% (just shows how he has to carry the rest of them)(sun herald 10/5 page 84)

 

[Dave]

LJ, Wallis was playing on McKernan (and beating him hands down) when Carey wasn't using his head as a punching bag.

And Roo"boy", I *was* AT the game "boy", and I've watched it a couple of times afterwards. Fletcher beat Carey one on one most of the night. He certainly didn't have three or four opponents.

P.S Harvey went off for the blood rule. As for gutsy players, have a look at your own team before you go slagging off someone else's, "boy".

P.P.S are you the same "ROOBOY 96" who posted that North had the flag in the bag already on Essendon's club forum?

 

[Rooboy 96]

Dave, never posted on another clubs board, have enjoyed the odd read, but never posted.
Must be someone with a great callsign, like mine.
Can you post his post here for a bit of a look.

PS are you trying to tell me no-one helped Fletcher out, please Dave don't treat me like that.

 

[Dave]

RooBoy, I'm not saying *no-one* helped Fletcher out, as all defenses do this, simply that Carey wasn't double teamed as a matter of course on that night.

I had another look at the post and it was actually under the name Rooboy#1, sorry 'bout that!