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Analysis Home Track Bullies

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DanWCE said:
Is it because we keep going +1 at the contest to counter these bigger bodies/contested beasts?

It feels like the evolution of the snap kick forward out of the pack. We get some spread but still gamble on a big kick and it is picked off every time by a loose back.
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From what I usually see its the poor skills going inside 50 that gives our forwards not much of a chance. We build up nicely work it forward and then a dinky kick or handball doesn't reach its target and puts the receiver under pressure or the kick into the 50 itself is crap. I think its mostly skill based.
 

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avishka5 said:
This group wont win a premiership if they cant beat good sides away from home. But as bad as it we are probably one good win away from home getting belief to beat other good sides away. it worked to an extent last year when we beat port.
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The biggest question is, if we get all the belief and confidence possible, do we have the talent in the midfield and small forward roles to match it with the best teams? Our Key Position stocks are great, but it's the stoppage work, the rapid forward transition along with efficient crumbing up forward that are lacking right now.

I guess it comes down to what percentage of the problem is mindset/psychology compared with physical ability of our players. I personally reckon a fair chunk of the problem is above the shoulders and aligned with the more nebulous concepts of leadership and spirit. Teams drink their own bathwater when the media is positive, perhaps it's the negative attention (flat-track-bullies, can't travel) that the players are really starting to feel. The worrying thing is we can't seem to shake that, which speaks to the perceived lack of leadership.

I do also think that at it's best, our midfield still walks in the shadows of the midfields of Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong and the like (arguably all of North, Adelaide, Bulldogs, GWS and still Freo at their best).
 
EagleShore said:
The biggest question is, if we get all the belief and confidence possible, do we have the talent in the midfield and small forward roles to match it with the best teams? Our Key Position stocks are great, but it's the stoppage work, the rapid forward transition along with efficient crumbing up forward that are lacking right now.

I guess it comes down to what percentage of the problem is mindset/psychology compared with physical ability of our players. I personally reckon a fair chunk of the problem is above the shoulders and aligned with the more nebulous concepts of leadership and spirit. Teams drink their own bathwater when the media is positive, perhaps it's the negative attention (flat-track-bullies, can't travel) that the players are really starting to feel. The worrying thing is we can't seem to shake that, which speaks to the perceived lack of leadership.

I do also think that at it's best, our midfield still walks in the shadows of the midfields of Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong and the like (arguably all of North, Adelaide, Bulldogs, GWS and still Freo at their best).
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I agree. A large chunk is mentality but we our midfielder is one good midfielder short. Sheeds absnece is felt at the momenet. But i cant see him returning to his best when he returns. We can still make top 4 this season but our mentality needs to change and we need to play our best for 4 quarters. our best will knock any side in the competition but it has only been played in patches.
 
The Dodger said:
From what I usually see its the poor skills going inside 50 that gives our forwards not much of a chance. We build up nicely work it forward and then a dinky kick or handball doesn't reach its target and puts the receiver under pressure or the kick into the 50 itself is crap. I think its mostly skill based.
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I have been thinking about this a bit after the game. We seem to want to kick to a contest as quickly and as often as possible.

As soon as we win a contested ball in the middle, we will kick it to Kennedy - doesn't matter if he's double teamed or not. If Kennedy is out of range, we'll kick to Darling.

Other sides will win a contest and try to get runners overlapping first before they kick it. Then they're closer to the 50m arc by the time they can dispose of it, which makes it far easier to break through zones.

I feel like this is where the ground dimensions seem to have a big part to play. Kicking long to a contest at Subi seems to work because there's less lateral space that the opposition can clear the ball to, when JK inevitably loses the 50-odd percent of marking contests.

I don't know if it's a game plan thing, or if our players just panic when they get the ball in the midfield, or if our structures (or midfielders' physical attributes) don't allow the overlapping run.

The problem is, this quick bomb does sometimes work - you can see it in our Q3 fightback. But it only works at centre bounces. For some reason as soon as it turns into another stoppage, opposition defenders just form a wall.

It's not helped that JK and JD are lead-up forwards, not super strong contested markers, which is why it would be ideal if the Gov was playing up front rather than having to save our ass down back
 
True we don't seem to have the overlap run that other sides do meaning our hard work still relies on a 50/50 for a scoring opportunity where as our opponents get numbers forward and have safe options inside 50 for shots on goal. Must be a willingness to leave your opponent in the middle of the ground when things are going your way. Perhaps due to our record and whats made of it the team are reluctant to take off and back their teammates in.
 
No excuses for the performance but there were quite a few attacking forays early in the game stopped dead in their tracks by us being unfairly pinged for holding the ball. For a team seemingly lacking confidence away from home those can be such a killer.
 
My biggest concern is not so much us being beaten away its more that we are yet to play a game this season, where we have put in a solid FOUR quarters .
Even in the games we have won at home, there have been extended periods in which we went to sleep.

Fix the concentration and master the ability to play four quarters and the away wins will start falling in to place.
 
Monocle said:
My biggest concern is not so much us being beaten away its more that we are yet to play a game this season, where we have put in a solid FOUR quarters .
Even in the games we have won at home, there have been extended periods in which we went to sleep.

Fix the concentration and master the ability to play four quarters and the away wins will start falling in to place.
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NAB3 against Essendon
 

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SpaceClef said:
I have been thinking about this a bit after the game. We seem to want to kick to a contest as quickly and as often as possible.

As soon as we win a contested ball in the middle, we will kick it to Kennedy - doesn't matter if he's double teamed or not. If Kennedy is out of range, we'll kick to Darling.

Other sides will win a contest and try to get runners overlapping first before they kick it. Then they're closer to the 50m arc by the time they can dispose of it, which makes it far easier to break through zones.

I feel like this is where the ground dimensions seem to have a big part to play. Kicking long to a contest at Subi seems to work because there's less lateral space that the opposition can clear the ball to, when JK inevitably loses the 50-odd percent of marking contests.

I don't know if it's a game plan thing, or if our players just panic when they get the ball in the midfield, or if our structures (or midfielders' physical attributes) don't allow the overlapping run.

The problem is, this quick bomb does sometimes work - you can see it in our Q3 fightback. But it only works at centre bounces. For some reason as soon as it turns into another stoppage, opposition defenders just form a wall.

It's not helped that JK and JD are lead-up forwards, not super strong contested markers, which is why it would be ideal if the Gov was playing up front rather than having to save our ass down back
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Some of this could come back to going +1 at the contest. When we start at a centre bounce we might be dropping our +1 as Nic gets the ascendancy in these situations. He loses it around the ground and therefore we roll another mid to the contest leaving an extra defender against our forwards.

If Nic wins the tap out of the middle and there is no loose defender, the ball doesnt get picked off and we have a fair chance of scoring, given our forward talent.

Classic robbing Peter to pay Paul. It would be very risky but if we were confident the +1 would win us the clearance (didnt work against the Cats) I'd like them to roll an extra mid up off half back so our forwards each take an opponent and we dont have to compete against the loose back. If we lose that contest we will be screwed, though.
 
I am always amazed at the view of our GF performance last year.
Firstly in the article he acknowledges that Hawthorn are perhaps the greatest team of all time then labels our GF the worst since Port? Really a 7 goal loss by us probably over achieving last year is worse than Sydney's 11 goal loss as a team that played in a winning GF 2 years earlier? Or the effort by StKilda in the replay? Again by a senior side who played in a GF the week before & the year before.
I wasn't happy with the way the team played but I thought it the reality of the 2 teams and not some 119 event.
 

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The Dodger said:
I am always amazed at the view of our GF performance last year.
Firstly in the article he acknowledges that Hawthorn are perhaps the greatest team of all time then labels our GF the worst since Port? Really a 7 goal loss by us probably over achieving last year is worse than Sydney's 11 goal loss as a team that played in a winning GF 2 years earlier? Or the effort by StKilda in the replay? Again by a senior side who played in a GF the week before & the year before.
I wasn't happy with the way the team played but I thought it the reality of the 2 teams and not some 119 event.
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Mm I just reckon a lot of people rated us a chance and were assuming Hawthorn wouldn't have the same drive to win as us.

Then we had a bunch of hyped up players not even impact the match, coupled with moments like the Darling chest mark, that would have seemed really jarring to neutrals.

The huge gap between what they saw us do against Hawthorn at home, and then the pathetic effort in the GF, is why it would be seen as such a fizzer.
 
Monocle said:
My biggest concern is not so much us being beaten away its more that we are yet to play a game this season, where we have put in a solid FOUR quarters .
Even in the games we have won at home, there have been extended periods in which we went to sleep.

Fix the concentration and master the ability to play four quarters and the away wins will start falling in to place.
Click to expand...
That happens in almost every game with every team. It's very hard to be on for 4 quarters. Even in games where we've lost comfortably we have had a quarter or 2 where we've been in control.
 
SpaceClef said:
Mm I just reckon a lot of people rated us a chance and were assuming Hawthorn wouldn't have the same drive to win as us.

Then we had a bunch of hyped up players not even impact the match, coupled with moments like the Darling chest mark, that would have seemed really jarring to neutrals.

The huge gap between what they saw us do against Hawthorn at home, and then the pathetic effort in the GF, is why it would be seen as such a fizzer.
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No problem with that but IIRC the Syd v Haw GF was a genuine 50/50 if not Sydney were slightly favourites. With their record/mature players having performed on the same stage 2 years earlier that was more of a shock to me than the result of ours. Perhaps it's just me.
 
Not sure if you guys follow the Squiggle, but some really interesting posts from Final Siren in the last couple of days looking at the strength of each team at all the different grounds (looking at how much the results at those grounds differ from expected results). West coast performs on average 47 points better at Subiaco than statistically expected, by far the biggest advantage in the league. Interestingly, Freo does not have the same advantage, with the team performing about as expected at Subi.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/race-for-the-flag-in-squiggly-lines.1022679/page-259
 

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Analysis Home Track Bullies

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