Society/Culture Homogeneous society

Remove this Banner Ad

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
A homogeneous society means we are united as one nation rather than divided into separate tribes often conflicting with one and other.
A simple shared set of social norms and values that bind us together is the right approach. Skin colour is not relevant.
An ethnic enclave is geographical area with a high ethnic concentration.
"In sociology, an ethnic enclave is a geographic area with high ethnic concentration, characteristic cultural identity, and economic activity.
The term is usually used to refer to either a residential area or a workspace with a high concentration of ethnic firms. Their success and growth depends on self-sufficiency, and is coupled with economic prosperity.
" - Ethnic Enclave Wikipedia.

That's the full quote, and it's important to include at least the entire sentence, because it's not just a "high ethnic concentration".

Is it fair to call it a homogenous enclave?
Ethnic enclaves are beneficial short term. As they grow and age they seem to become detrimental.
What do you feel is a positive about a homogeneous society, that is negative about an ethnic enclave?


Australia was not as divided 10 years ago as it is today. This new tribal identity politics and western grievance culture is a new trend.
There is correlation. But you're implying causation.
The majority Christian chaplain programme has been running for the last 7 years. Is there any causation there?

A homogeneous society means we are united as one nation rather than divided into separate tribes often conflicting with one and other.

The benefits are many including facing challenges as one, the ability to get along with each other, more civil elections and political discourse, people tend to donate more time and money to charitable causes, less crime, less need for government regulation and greater individual freedom.

A simple shared set of social norms and values that bind us together is the right approach. Skin colour is not relevant.
I brought up skin colour because when conservatives talk about a homogeneous society they are often wrongly accused of racism.
I think part of the reason for that, rightly or wrongly, is because they're often unable to detail or substantiate their position.

In my experience, it's possible for someone to hold (what appears to be) a racist position/view/value, without actually being a racist.

Hiding fascism and racism behind movements and groups that seem to be well-meaning and agreeable, has become an art form.

Appeals to fear, tradition, nature, ridicule and pity. Perfectionist fallacy, division, false dilemma, unfalsifiability, affirming the consequent, misleading vividness, biased generalising, composition, anecdotal evidence taking precedence over studies and science. - Logical fallacy list.
'Critical race theory' is a good example, in my opinion.
Extreme reactions from progressives/'the left' etc have contributed to this.


Is there substantiated argument for Australia becoming a homogeneous society?
 

Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
81
64
AFL Club
Geelong

"In sociology, an ethnic enclave is a geographic area with high ethnic concentration, characteristic cultural identity, and economic activity.
The term is usually used to refer to either a residential area or a workspace with a high concentration of ethnic firms. Their success and growth depends on self-sufficiency, and is coupled with economic prosperity.
" - Ethnic Enclave Wikipedia.

That's the full quote, and it's important to include at least the entire sentence, because it's not just a "high ethnic concentration".

Is it fair to call it a homogenous enclave?
Ethnic enclaves are beneficial short term. As they grow and age they seem to become detrimental.
What do you feel is a positive about a homogeneous society, that is negative about an ethnic enclave?



There is correlation. But you're implying causation.
The majority Christian chaplain programme has been running for the last 7 years. Is there any causation there?



I think part of the reason for that, rightly or wrongly, is because they're often unable to detail or substantiate their position.

In my experience, it's possible for someone to hold (what appears to be) a racist position/view/value, without actually being a racist.

Hiding fascism and racism behind movements and groups that seem to be well-meaning and agreeable, has become an art form.

Appeals to fear, tradition, nature, ridicule and pity. Perfectionist fallacy, division, false dilemma, unfalsifiability, affirming the consequent, misleading vividness, biased generalising, composition, anecdotal evidence taking precedence over studies and science. - Logical fallacy list.
'Critical race theory' is a good example, in my opinion.
Extreme reactions from progressives/'the left' etc have contributed to this.


Is there substantiated argument for Australia becoming a homogeneous society?
Ethnic enclaves typicaly divide people so there is nothing homogeneous about them.

We are all Australians who live unde the same political system, legal system, economic system, IR system, welfare system, education system, health care system etc. We need to have a level of cohesion so these systems can operate effectively and all people can enjoy the benefits of being an Australian. People who live like some type of hermit crab in a small local area miss out on so much.

Christianity is not the only means of creating a homogeneous society. I would go a step further

Australia is not at this point yet but we are seeing a lot of civil disobedience and violence over in the US because it is a country deeply divided.

It is clear that our diversity has made dealing with the covid pandemic much harder. It is very hard to get health messages out to certain communities. If we don't have the ability to get on the same page than dealing with challenges as a nation becomes much more difficult and more government regulation is required.

Just to take a step back by homogeneous society what I and most conservatives that I know are advocating for is a very basic set of norms, values and beliefs that bind us together that does not infringe on peoples individual freedom.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
most conservatives that I know are advocating for is a very basic set of norms, values and beliefs that bind us together that does not infringe on peoples individual freedom.
So your argument is that we don't have that in Australia?

"Perfectionist Fallacy
Assuming that the only option on the table is perfect success, then rejecting anything that will not work perfectly."

Of course there are plenty of problems in Australia. But what you seem to be advocating for, exists.


It's all very vague.

Let's get on the same page, by getting an understanding of what certain things mean. Or ask me something, like a definition or to explain a point.


Why don't we start with your views/opinions?
1. What do you picture a homogenous society in Australia would look like?
But let's avoid vague things like "enjoy the benefits of being an Australian".

Just to take a step back by homogeneous society
I don't think you should, unless you're reconsidering your position on a homogeneous society.
Is this something you've spent a lot of time considering? Does it match your own values and beliefs?
Or was it something that sounded good at face value?
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
81
64
AFL Club
Geelong
So your argument is that we don't have that in
Do you agree that a lack of cohesiveness has made responding to the challenges presented by covid-19 more difficult ?

Do you are government regulations imposed to help deal with covid-19 have caused significant hardship and had a negative impact of peoples quality of life ?



Why don't we start with your views/opinions?
1. What do you picture a homogenous society in Australia would look like?
But let's avoid vague things like "enjoy the benefits of being an Australian".


I don't think you should, unless you're reconsidering your position on a homogeneous society.
Is this something you've spent a lot of time considering? Does it match your own values and beliefs?
Or was it something that sounded good at face value?
A homogeneous society in Australia would be devoid of Identity politics. We would all share a sense of national pride, speak the same language and derive a similar set of social norms, values and beliefs fostered in part by our Christian faith.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
Do you agree that a lack of cohesiveness has made responding to the challenges presented by covid-19 more difficult ?
Sorry, no.
Because you've not made a case for it.

This isn't an attack, I'm just trying to explain my position.

What you've written is so vague, I can't even work out if there might be a part I do agree with you on.
You've introduced a new word (cohesiveness). Are you talking about 'United and working together effectively'?
Or social cohesion? Because social cohesion is not homogeneity.

So a "lack of" something.... made "responding" (by who? The Government, the Church, ethnic enclaves, Australia??) to the "challenges presented by covid-19" (there are a huge number of challenges, where are we even starting? Is it the logistics of transporting and administering vaccines throughout Australia? Is it the impact on the tourism industry? Is it economical, social, political, commercial?? Is it the confusing terminology around SARS-CoV-2? The toilet paper chaos? PPE shortage? The health system?).
"More difficult" What is it, and what is it being compared to?

Why don't you pick a specific area, and we can discuss that?
Or give an example (substantiated) that has happened, and how it would be less detrimental due to the criteria you're advocating for.

Do you agree government regulations imposed to help deal with covid-19 have caused significant hardship and had a negative impact of peoples quality of life ?
Pick a Government regulation, and let's discuss its merits.

I think the pandemic has caused significant hardship and had a negative impact on quality of life.
And I'll expand.
Even when parts of Australia were completely unaffected by Covid-19, no lockdowns, no masks, no change to their way of life. No Australia Government regulations.
They had family overseas in hot spot areas. They couldn't go to them, couldn't visit them, couldn't help them, couldn't look after them. Desperate for updates.



A homogeneous society in Australia would be devoid of Identity politics. We would all share a sense of national pride, speak the same language and derive a similar set of social norms, values and beliefs fostered in part by our Christian faith.
Sorry, that just doesn't mean anything.

Imagine if you were given the power to reshape Australia... And you just wrote that as your policy. And that was it. No more changes or amendments.

Can you not see how many different ways it can be interpreted?

What are the social norms?
What are the values?
What are the beliefs?
What is a sense of national pride? Why would a sense of national pride be important?

Speak the same language. What about people with muteness? Can people learn more than one language and speak the other language in your Australia?


How would you implement these things to over 25 million people, across a land as vast as Australia?
How would you make sure it was being maintained?
What would you suggest happen to Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc, who refuse to adopt or implement any part of the Christian faith?

Do we still have international travel? Immigration? Trade?
Are we involved with the Olympics? Or the Commonwealth games?
What do we do about refugees after we confirm it's literally life or death for them?
 

ExcitementMachine

Club Legend
Aug 5, 2019
1,805
1,399
AFL Club
Collingwood
Ethnic enclaves typicaly divide people so there is nothing homogeneous about them.

We are all Australians who live unde the same political system, legal system, economic system, IR system, welfare system, education system, health care system etc. We need to have a level of cohesion so these systems can operate effectively and all people can enjoy the benefits of being an Australian. People who live like some type of hermit crab in a small local area miss out on so much.

Christianity is not the only means of creating a homogeneous society. I would go a step further

Australia is not at this point yet but we are seeing a lot of civil disobedience and violence over in the US because it is a country deeply divided.

It is clear that our diversity has made dealing with the covid pandemic much harder. It is very hard to get health messages out to certain communities. If we don't have the ability to get on the same page than dealing with challenges as a nation becomes much more difficult and more government regulation is required.

Just to take a step back by homogeneous society what I and most conservatives that I know are advocating for is a very basic set of norms, values and beliefs that bind us together that does not infringe on peoples individual freedom.
Props for you to have the balls to post this on this forum.
It's a very uncomfortable conversation to have but there's some truths in there.
 

Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
81
64
AFL Club
Geelong
Sorry, no.
Because you've not made a case for it.

This isn't an attack, I'm just trying to explain my position.

What you've written is so vague, I can't even work out if there might be a part I do agree with you on.
You've introduced a new word (cohesiveness). Are you talking about 'United and working together effectively'?
Or social cohesion? Because social cohesion is not homogeneity.

So a "lack of" something.... made "responding" (by who? The Government, the Church, ethnic enclaves, Australia??) to the "challenges presented by covid-19" (there are a huge number of challenges, where are we even starting? Is it the logistics of transporting and administering vaccines throughout Australia? Is it the impact on the tourism industry? Is it economical, social, political, commercial?? Is it the confusing terminology around SARS-CoV-2? The toilet paper chaos? PPE shortage? The health system?).
Let me quote Einstein "If you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough "

You are unesseserialy going off track.

Local government areas with a high ethnic concentration have a high level of covid cases because they don't follow the health advice. The result is the rest of Melbourne and Sydney are in lockdown with devastating consequences.

I can receive a $1600 fine if I walk my dog right this minute.

No need to go any further than this to look at the need for a more cohesive society.

A homogeneous and cohesive society go hand in hand. If you look up the dictionary the two words are interchangeable.

Sorry, that just doesn't mean anything.

Imagine if you were given the power to reshape Australia... And you just wrote that as your policy. And that was it. No more changes or amendments.

Can you not see how many different ways it can be interpreted?

What are the social norms?
What are the values?
What are the beliefs?
What is a sense of national pride? Why would a sense of national pride be important?

Speak the same language. What about people with muteness? Can people learn more than one language and speak the other language in your Australia?


How would you implement these things to over 25 million people, across a land as vast as Australia?
How would you make sure it was being maintained?
What would you suggest happen to Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc, who refuse to adopt or implement any part of the Christian faith?

Do we still have international travel? Immigration? Trade?
Are we involved with the Olympics? Or the Commonwealth games?
What do we do about refugees after we confirm it's literally life or death for them?
Going off track again unesseserialy.

If people eat a wholesome diet, regularly exercise,
don't smoke etc good health will follow.

In the same way a society that receives a wholesome dose of Christianity, national pride and rids itself of identity politics will be more cohesive.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
Props for you to have the balls to post this on this forum.
It's a very uncomfortable conversation to have but there's some truths in there.
A lot of the messages seem incredibly reasonable. Almost common sense.
But is it more than surface level?

What's one of the truths in there, in your view?
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
A homogenous society is only good if it has shared values that everyone can embrace.

what has ethnicity got to do with shared values?
Well I think that's the thing. A homogeneous society sounds good, on the surface. It's just a collection of people who all share the same values, ethics, passions, desires, beliefs, etc. A collection of everyone pulling in the same direction would mean that success is inevitable.
It's not colour, it's not race, it's not religion, etc etc, it's just a collection of like minded people prospering.

On the surface, sounds crazy to argue against it, let alone infer racism.

But as soon as you start digging, it becomes clear that it isn't a realistic or possible scenario.
For a start, biological males and biological females, how could they be homogeneous?
I'm not talking about gender.
Biologically, there will be difference.
A cis female is attracted to a cis male. But a cis male is attracted to a cis female. We have found a clash.

I happen to think these difference are actually a good think, and that our society wouldn't exist without it.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
Let me quote Einstein "If you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough "
I can't actually find any evidence that that is an Einstein quote.

But you're unable to explain your position or reasoning simply.
Simple responses are not the same as simply explained.

I'm still assuming you're responding in good faith, and that this isn't deliberate.

These kinds of positions that you seem to be advocating for need to be vague, and need to avoid scrutiny, because they only seem reasonable on a surface level.
And it works so well, for so many reasons.

1. Easily adopted.
2. Really walks the line of ethnonationalism, so you will almost always have some 'lunatic lefty' screaming racist at you, when in your mind it's just common sense. This helps solidify that it's a good thing to advocate for, and clearly it's the 'left' who are intolerant.
3. Once you've started to, or have adopted this position, when someone starts questioning your position or making you think more about it, it feels like an attack, and cements it into your belief system. You don't think you're a racist, you don't believe you're a racist, you know that this common sense position isn't racist... but this crafty 'lefty' has tricked you into a corner to make you look racist.
You know there must be answers for all of these questions, because you know you're not racist. So the only possible explanation is that the person with the questions is cheating.


I don't think you're racist. I don't think you think your position is racist.
On face value, it's not a racist position. So that's why I'm genuinely trying to get a better understanding.
I might be wrong.
I like to be questioned, because it's how I develop knowledge in my own values, morals, views etc.
If I strongly think something, but I'm not actually able to support it, stand by it or defend it, I need to rethink that aspect of me.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
You're wasting your time on someone who's bonkers and isn't looking to become not bonkers. White Christians = okay. Everyone else = not okay.
Originally I was going to brush you off. Because I was worried about how it might look if I agreed with someone who disagreed with the person I'm trying to engage with.

Then I realised how ridiculous it would be for me to spend so much time engaging with someone who appears to have very different values to me, and brush off someone who's being friendly and supportive.


It's hard. I'm sure most people have interacted, or read about, or watched someone who is openly 'racist', and makes similar sounding arguments, and holding similar looking positions.
So it's very hard when you see someone seemingly repeating these tropes, to not see through it and 'know' their true intentions.
And it's why these movements are so great (not in a positive sense). Because they just need to put it out here and there, and watch as the other 'side' does all the leg work in convincing people to adopt that position.
 

Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
81
64
AFL Club
Geelong
I can't actually find any evidence that that is an Einstein quote.

But you're unable to explain your position or reasoning simply.
Simple responses are not the same as simply explained.

What exactlty is causing you confusion?

These kinds of positions that you seem to be advocating for need to be vague, and need to avoid scrutiny, because they only seem reasonable on a surface level.
And it works so well, for so many reasons.
What positions are are vague ?
I don't think you're racist. I don't think you think your position is racist.
On face value, it's not a racist position. So that's why I'm genuinely trying to get a better understanding.
I might be wrong.
I like to be questioned, because it's how I develop knowledge in my own values, morals, views etc.
If I strongly think something, but I'm not actually able to support it, stand by it or defend it, I need to rethink that aspect of me.
I am not racist in the slightest. Do you believe that people who advocate for a homogeneous cohesivene society are racist ?
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
13,734
12,019
AFL Club
St Kilda
What exactlty is causing you confusion?
What positions are are vague ?
I believe I've been listing and explaining them. But there are a fair few, so I'll just pick one, and you can help clear up my confusion.

social norms
What are the social norms?
What are the social norms?

Now. I know the definition is "rules and standards that are understood by members of a group, and that guide or constrain social behaviours without the force of law".
I'm not asking you for the definition. I'm asking you specifically what those social norms would be.






----------------------------------------
I am not racist in the slightest. Do you believe that people who advocate for a homogeneous cohesivene society are racist ?
Here is an example of a vague answer.
Do you not agree that racism has caused significant hardship and had a negative impact of peoples quality of life ?​
I am not racist in the slightest. Do you believe that people who advocate for a homogeneous cohesivene society are racist ?
So to actually answer your question.
I know for a fact that some of the people who advocate for a homogeneous society, are racist.
I do not believe that everyone who advocates for a homogeneous society are racist.

But that's a point I've made repeatedly already. An answer to your question is literally in the part you quoted.


1631634817433.png


A homogeneous society sounds good, on the surface. It's just a collection of people who all share the same values, ethics, passions, desires, beliefs, etc. A collection of everyone pulling in the same direction would mean that success is inevitable.
It's not colour, it's not race, it's not religion, etc etc, it's just a collection of like minded people prospering.

On the surface, sounds crazy to argue against it, let alone infer racism.
A lot of the messages seem incredibly reasonable. Almost common sense.
But is it more than surface level?
In my experience, it's possible for someone to hold (what appears to be) a racist position/view/value, without actually being a racist.
 

Schneebly11

Team Captain
Apr 7, 2020
419
638
AFL Club
Richmond
A homogeneous society in Australia would be devoid of Identity politics. We would all share a sense of national pride, speak the same language and derive a similar set of social norms, values and beliefs fostered in part by our Christian faith.
A society of identity politics.....

..... just those who identify as nationalistic, Anglo Christians......

That’s usually the response when I hear someone start off a “I hate identity politics, except those I identify with....” rant
 

Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
81
64
AFL Club
Geelong
I believe I've been listing and explaining them. But there are a fair few, so I'll just pick one, and you can help clear up my confusion.


What are the social norms?

Now. I know the definition is "rules and standards that are understood by members of a group, and that guide or constrain social behaviours without the force of law".
I'm not asking you for the definition. I'm asking you specifically what those social norms would be.






----------------------------------------

Here is an example of a vague answer.
Do you not agree that racism has caused significant hardship and had a negative impact of peoples quality of life ?​


So to actually answer your question.
I know for a fact that some of the people who advocate for a homogeneous society, are racist.
I do not believe that everyone who advocates for a homogeneous society are racist.

But that's a point I've made repeatedly already. An answer to your question is literally in the part you quoted.


View attachment 1236057
Respect for not pulling out the racist card. Labelling certain conservative views as racist.

Your questions to be answered sufficiently require depth and detail. I am sure you appreciate we all have certain time constraints so I will give you a response soon as best I can.

Besides knowing what specific social norms I would like to see In Australia what else would you like me to answer ?
 

Pie eyed

Premium Platinum
Jun 26, 2007
39,847
18,283
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Magpies
Just to take a step back by homogeneous society what I and most conservatives that I know are advocating for is a very basic set of White Anglo norms, values and beliefs that we have been enforcing on everyone for centuries no matter how much they infringe on peoples individual freedoms.
Edited for accuracy.



Do you even know how ridiculous your views come across?

What this country needs more than anythings a total break from a religious conservative past which has tainted our allegedly secular Government since federation.
The individual churches should be held to account financially and punitively for the damage they have done since this country was established to the white anglo, multiculturally ethnic and indigenous populations.
A stain on humanity.

Worship any God you like but do it in your own time, privately and 100% at your own expense.
 

Boronia67

Debutant
Aug 16, 2021
81
64
AFL Club
Geelong
Edited for accuracy.



Do you even know how ridiculous your views come across?

What this country needs more than anythings a total break from a religious conservative past which has tainted our allegedly secular Government since federation.
The individual churches should be held to account financially and punitively for the damage they have done since this country was established to the white anglo, multiculturally ethnic and indigenous populations.
A stain on humanity.

Worship any God you like but do it in your own time, privately and 100% at your own expense.
Firstly I am not advocating the churches run the country or have some control over government.

Whatever crimes the churches have done and there are some bad ones via a few sick evil individuals the churches have done far more good than bad.

The catholic church a few years ago and I assume its similar today funded around 50% of all palliative care in this country.

The main takeaway of the new testament is service to others. I will give you an example of someone in my life inspired by Christianity to help others.

My GP i have been seeing since I was born is from an Eastern European country and speaks that language. He is roughly 70 and has had a few bouts of cancer. More than enough money to retire. He still keeps on working 5 long days a week to help his patients many of whom are old with complex health conditions he understands and they often have limited English.

This just one of tens of thousands of examples of people in our great nation who have been inspired by their Christian faith to serve others.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad