How bad is Essendon? Jeeeeeez

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Richo83

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 2, 2005
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Coaching is obviously an issue and it's obvious that Essendon's game style doesn't match the skillsets of the list. I still think it's talent as well though, I remember footy classified talking about Essendon and Ross Lyon was like "what if it's just that they're not good enough, talented enough, not well coached enough". I completely agree. If this side was full of talented players who are capable of performing the crucial aspects important to the modern game like contested football, pressure, contested marking, goal kicking etc. then transition coaching and a shifting leadership group wouldn't matter as much. However, their gamestyle is suited to a run and gun half back attack and Dodoro has to take some of the blame for creating a list which is so skewed towards a certain style of play, which limits the coaches' ability to create a dynamic and versatile gamestyle.
 

EasternTiger

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An absolutely perfect replacement for Houli.
Was thinking the exact same thing.

It took us a good 3 years to completely de-essingtonize Houli, but it proved to be a wise and very productive investment.

With our structures and culture what it is, I reckon we could have Saad playing the 'Richmond Way' in time for finals next year.
 

Yoda_

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Coaching is obviously an issue and it's obvious that Essendon's game style doesn't match the skillsets of the list. I still think it's talent as well though, I remember footy classified talking about Essendon and Ross Lyon was like "what if it's just that they're not good enough, talented enough, not well coached enough". I completely agree. If this side was full of talented players who are capable of performing the crucial aspects important to the modern game like contested football, pressure, contested marking, goal kicking etc. then transition coaching and a shifting leadership group wouldn't matter as much. However, their gamestyle is suited to a run and gun half back attack and Dodoro has to take some of the blame for creating a list which is so skewed towards a certain style of play, which limits the coaches' ability to create a dynamic and versatile gamestyle.
Thats just lazy though, taking aim at a team who has consistently made the finals in the past 5 years ('16 we were thrown out, '17 we made it, '19 we made it). Talent it there, it only gets you so far.


In regards to your point (re Dodoro) this is probably the first time someone has brought up a different and valid (non lazy) point of view that actually has merit. Recruitment and game style is kind of like playing chicken and the egg, what do you do first? get the blokes you need to fill the game plan or implement the game plan and then fll the holes?
 

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Yoda_

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Was thinking the exact same thing.

It took us a good 3 years to completely de-essingtonize Houli, but it proved to be a wise and very productive investment.

With our structures and culture what it is, I reckon we could have Saad playing the 'Richmond Way' in time for finals next year.
Saad will re - sign
 

Richo83

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Thats just lazy though, taking aim at a team who has consistently made the finals in the past 5 years ('16 we were thrown out, '17 we made it, '19 we made it). Talent it there, it only gets you so far.
You're not that talented. You've won 44.5 percent of your last 100 games which is 13th in the league. You've managed to sneak into the finals only to be bundled out immediately. Finishing 8th and losing to better teams by 50 points doesn't mean anything to neutrals.

In regards to your point (re Dodoro) this is probably the first time someone has brought up a different and valid (non lazy) point of view that actually has merit. Recruitment and game style is kind of like playing chicken and the egg, what do you do first? get the blokes you need to fill the game plan or implement the game plan and then fll the holes?
Dodoro rarely if ever trades for tough players known for their contested or defensive efforts. It's clear that in 2020 that the coaches are trying to work on those two things, but are being hampered by a list which only knows how to run the lines and attack. It's not a balanced list with a range of skillsets.

About chickens and eggs, it's a bit of both and you try and get players who are versatile who can play multiple roles. It's clear that Hardwick has had to teach players some things that aren't natural to them, but that's what a good coach does: improve and train players. It's also clear though that Richmond have focused on physical and mental speed in drafting as well as players who can bring pressure all over the ground. But Richmond have players who can play multiple roles and that's one of my problems with Essendon, their players are often lacking in versatility and are too similar to each other. Rutten just doesn't have the cattle to implement a defensive setup as Essendon's players aren't skilled at that.
 

Yoda_

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You're not that talented. You've won 44.5 percent of your last 100 games which is 13th in the league. You've managed to sneak into the finals only to be bundled out immediately. Finishing 8th and losing to better teams by 50 points doesn't mean anything to neutrals.
As I mentioned, we are clearly talented though getting into the finals with how poor our structures and game plans have been for 5 years. Imagine if we had a coach that looked at our list and moulded it accordingly is what I am suggesting.


rarely if ever trades for tough players known for their contested or defensive efforts. It's clear that in 2020 that the coaches are trying to work on those two things, but are being hampered by a list which only knows how to run the lines and attack. It's not a balanced list with a range of skillsets.

About chickens and eggs, it's a bit of both and you try and get players who are versatile who can play multiple roles. It's clear that Hardwick has had to teach players some things that aren't natural to them, but that's what a good coach does: improve and train players. It's also clear though that Richmond have focused on physical and mental speed in drafting as well as players who can bring pressure all over the ground. But Richmond have players who can play multiple roles and that's one of my problems with Essendon, their players are often lacking in versatility and are too similar to each other. Rutten just doesn't have the cattle to implement a defensive setup as Essendon's players aren't skilled at that.
Essendon is the king of trying to turn a positional player into another role, thats why we are where we are. As for Dodoro targetting soft unaccountable players, again that's just a lazy assumption. We thought that of Saad and he has been one of the better small defenders in the comp since he arrived, Smith was one of the leading tacklers in the comp when he arrived, Stringer isn't a tackler but is a tough motherf***er and Shiel, well he jury is still out but his early season for in 2020 was showing us he wasn't afraid to stick his head where it shouldn't be.
 

Richo83

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Essendon is the king of trying to turn a positional player into another role, thats why we are where we are. As for Dodoro targetting soft unaccountable players, again that's just a lazy assumption. We thought that of Saad and he has been one of the better small defenders in the comp since he arrived, Smith was one of the leading tacklers in the comp when he arrived, Stringer isn't a tackler but is a tough motherf***er and Shiel, well he jury is still out but his early season for in 2020 was showing us he wasn't afraid to stick his head where it shouldn't be.
Saad is a good shut down defender, I agree, but neither Stringer, Smith or Shiel have fixed Essendon's interior need for the contest. Smith's intensity for tackling waxes and wanes. He was a willing tackler in 2018 but that's evaporated. But it's not just tackling, it's pressure, it's defensive accountability, it's making sure your man doesn't run away from the football at a stoppage. Essendon are not physical enough or accountable.
 

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TheBrownDog
Sep 2, 2008
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It's true that Dodoro doesn't draft tough/contested footy players been a problem for decades and why we have been crap for so long

I want us to become a defensive/contested tough side not a flashy run and gun team that goes to water when the pressure is up.

If that means we have to get rid of players and bring/trade for ones that can then so be it.
 

Yoda_

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Saad is a good shut down defender, I agree, but neither Stringer, Smith or Shiel have fixed Essendon's interior need for the contest. Smith's intensity for tackling waxes and wanes. He was a willing tackler in 2018 but that's evaporated. But it's not just tackling, it's pressure, it's defensive accountability, it's making sure your man doesn't run away from the football at a stoppage. Essendon are not physical enough or accountable.
I addressed your point that none were willing to get there hands dirty
 

juss

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They haven’t done their time down the bottom and the fanbase, many of whom wear well-amplified media hats, are revolting like they’re the Saints or Dees 50+ years without a flag.

The Bombers play regular blockbusters and regularly win them, they get a lot of Friday night, Saturday night and plum fixture games and regularly win those. They regularly beat their rivals in stirring fashion. I’d say since 2013 four of Hawthorn’s worst 5 losses in terms of giving unbridled joy to opposition fans were against Essendon. Even in this supposedly rump season they got to enjoy a great win against Collingwood and a memorable comeback against Hawthorn. Pushed Richmond and only lost because of umpires, only lost to Carlton because of umpires. Embarrassed North and trolled them while doing so. They basically had a clean sweep of their rivals.

Being a week-to-week Essendon fan is actually a pleasant and enjoyable experience. Big losses are noteworthy because they’re rare. They haven’t become soul-destroying regularities like they have been for Richmond, Melbourne, Port, Carlton, Brisbane, Fremantle and the two expansion teams since Essendon last won a final in 2004. That’s half the league. Week-to-week they’ve had it better than half the league in this supposed all-time-low drought. fu** their top-up team BEAT MELBOURNE.

And yet they’re melting down like it’s the apocalypse. Essendon your fans are the problem. You’re not enjoying what, relative to the league is actually quite a pleasant experience supporting football, above average even given all the media fellatio and “Big 4” fixturing. There is no magic president, coach, playing group, recruiting strategy or Darren Goldspink that can fix your fans.
They've been stuck in no man's land for close to 20 years. It's a false hope place to be as a supporter. Sure, they might have okay years every year, with some fun wins every year, and a few exciting upsets and some exciting players, but to be perennially average with no real chance of contesting for a flag or making a deep finals run or ever being a real threat, it just gives their supporters false hope and sets them up for a letdown. Mid table side is okay because every year there's something to cheer about, but the fans are rightfully yearning for that next level now, the next level that only finals wins and genuinely threatening to challenge can bring.
 

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tdyen

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Oct 8, 2011
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They're clearly off the pace and it's pretty obvious to me it's the midfield. But they aren't total crap. It's not a start from zero affair. I think it's coaching too removing Harvey will probably help. Bellchambers retiring will open up a spot for a good player not average to poor one. Get two decent mids for Daniher and your half way there. You just need more confidence around the team.
 

TheUndertaker

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I dunno about fair trade the best small defender in the comp for a guy that doesn't played senior footy.
Your own supporter suggested it

Its also harder to unlearn than learn. Richmond Will spend 12-18 months taking the Essendon stink out of Saad. RCD is also a first round draft pick with 3 years of Richmond development behind him and the reputation is there that Richmond develop players very well.
 

Bjo187

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Apr 30, 2020
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Saad is one of the few that hasn't been compromised by our sh*t culture yet. It usually takes 3 years I've noticed. Also we already have enough of your scraps that have been completely useless in the coaching and playing department.
 

TheUndertaker

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Saad is one of the few that hasn't been compromised by our sh*t culture yet. It usually takes 3 years I've noticed. Also we already have enough of your scraps that have been completely useless in the coaching and playing department.
You do realise Caracella is absolutely revered for helping multiple teams win premierships. He is a genius and has a proven record eveeywhere he goes. Caracella isn't your problem.

Ben Rutten wasn't rated as a big loss by our supporters. The work Leppa put into our backline, Rutten reaped the rewards. But Caracella 👌👌

From our perspective, you are trying to play Richmonds style but,

1. Don't have the quality players.
2. Nor the fitness.
3. Or the opportunity to practise the gameplan.
4. An awkward succession plan thats failed.
5. The wrong guy (Rutten) as the senior coach, ask any Richmond supporters, 9 out of 10 would pick Caracella first.

As for your 'scraps' comment, your club actively POACHED these guys, we didn't wanna lose them. But surely you aint naive enough to believe that you can just poach a few people and the success automatically comes with them? When has that ever really happened?
 

Jesse Custer

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May 28, 2008
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Melbourne media and Bomber's members are going to accept Worsfolds head on a platter as the sacrificial scapegoat to take all the sins of the group.

Enable them all to deny and ignore the true core issues.
I know you enjoy having a pot shot or two but in reference to the members/supporters, that cant be further from the truth. Most of us do know there are deeper issues at the club from board level down. It isn't just Worsfold or Dodo that are the only problems. Problem is we dont run the club. We can only hurt them financially.
 

Great8

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Apr 19, 2015
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You do realise Caracella is absolutely revered for helping multiple teams win premierships. He is a genius and has a proven record eveeywhere he goes. Caracella isn't your problem.

Ben Rutten wasn't rated as a big loss by our supporters. The work Leppa put into our backline, Rutten reaped the rewards. But Caracella 👌👌

From our perspective, you are trying to play Richmonds style but,

1. Don't have the quality players.
2. Nor the fitness.
3. Or the opportunity to practise the gameplan.
4. An awkward succession plan thats failed.
5. The wrong guy (Rutten) as the senior coach, ask any Richmond supporters, 9 out of 10 would pick Caracella first.

As for your 'scraps' comment, your club actively POACHED these guys, we didn't wanna lose them. But surely you aint naive enough to believe that you can just poach a few people and the success automatically comes with them? When has that ever really happened?
I know we poached them and that’s what concerns me. Dan Richardson is a deadset shyster and can see why you blokes were happy for him to go.
As for Townsend, he is just a ordinary C/D grader which we have an abundance of
 

TheUndertaker

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I know we poached them and that’s what concerns me. Dan Richardson is a deadset shyster and can see why you blokes were happy for him to go.
As for Townsend, he is just a ordinary C/D grader which we have an abundance of
Townsend wasn't offered a new contract, he had his moment in 2017, just doesn't get the ball enough. Townsend technically was Richmond scraps becsuse we weren't offering him a contract. Richardson is a flog, I agree, didnt like him with us either, good riddance. But Caracella is where I genuinely disagree.

Could he be a one trick pony with this handball gamestyle ? Maybe? It's a question worth asking.
 

Great8

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Townsend wasn't offered a new contract, he had his moment in 2017, just doesn't get the ball enough. Townsend technically was Richmond scraps becsuse we weren't offering him a contract. Richardson is a flog, I agree, didnt like him with us either, good riddance. But Caracella is where I genuinely disagree.

Could he be a one trick pony with this handball gamestyle ? Maybe? It's a question worth asking.
I agree with you on Caracella.
We really have to stick with both Rutten and Caracella and see what they have got. I’d like to see us focus on the draft for the next two years minimum and see what happens. There is no quick fix out of this mess but at the same time there are board and staff members that also need to be sent packing along with players
 

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TheBrownDog
Sep 2, 2008
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You do realise Caracella is absolutely revered for helping multiple teams win premierships. He is a genius and has a proven record eveeywhere he goes. Caracella isn't your problem.

Ben Rutten wasn't rated as a big loss by our supporters. The work Leppa put into our backline, Rutten reaped the rewards. But Caracella 👌👌

From our perspective, you are trying to play Richmonds style but,

1. Don't have the quality players.
2. Nor the fitness.
3. Or the opportunity to practise the gameplan.
4. An awkward succession plan thats failed.
5. The wrong guy (Rutten) as the senior coach, ask any Richmond supporters, 9 out of 10 would pick Caracella first.

As for your 'scraps' comment, your club actively POACHED these guys, we didn't wanna lose them. But surely you aint naive enough to believe that you can just poach a few people and the success automatically comes with them? When has that ever really happened?
As Llyod said we are going to have massive list changes don't have enough players to play the Richmond style.

I think Caracella is in charge of the game plan Kyle Langford mentioned on radio a few weeks ago that they are learning 3 modes of attack or some sh*t like that
 

TheUndertaker

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I agree with you on Caracella.
We really have to stick with both Rutten and Caracella and see what they have got. I’d like to see us focus on the draft for the next two years minimum and see what happens. There is no quick fix out of this mess but at the same time there are board and staff members that also need to be sent packing along with players
Totally agree.

When did see Glimpses at the start of the year, the wheels fell off when finals wasn't happening, there are some elder statesmen that need to depart. The only way to fasttrack development
As Llyod said we are going to have massive list changes don't have enough players to play the Richmond style.

I think Caracella is in charge of the game plan Kyle Langford mentioned on radio a few weeks ago that they are learning 3 modes of attack or some sh*t like that
I know you guys love him, but Lloyd is an absolute cancer for essendon.

He is using this slump as a career advancement for him. He is a vulture that is picking at a carcass. Gary Lyon picks at Melbourne, Sam Newman pre 2007 consistently did with Geelong, but there was heart and sheer relatable frustration with their criticism. You could feel their frustration.

Lloyd wants destruction and uses his 'legend' status to really run down individuals working at the club.

He is the worst.
 

tombomb

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The Daniher (no) trade summed up Essendon.

They had an opportunity to get 2 first round picks for a bloke who is always injured, and they refused to even discuss it.

They didn't have to trade him, but to not even negotiate was complete incompetence - and the majority of Essendon supporters (including the likes of Lloyd and Robbo) cheered them on.
 

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