Toast How can this Melbourne side be stopped?

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MickG88

Team Captain
May 19, 2017
532
644
AFL Club
St Kilda
So fremantles defence is better than our vfl teams defence? cool.

So Lever, Petty and Salem miss most of the season and you don't even factor that in. laughable.

Lets see how Stkilda goes without Max King, Steele and Marshall and tell me personnel doesn't matter and it's all about system lol.
We beat GWS in Canberra with Marshall and Hayes going down in the 2nd quarter. We beat a team that has a better midfield than ours without a ruckman because the system that we put in place worked.
You're missing what I am saying. Posters have made the argument that Docker have a better defensive unit than Saints because they don't have as many points kicked on them, The same can be said about Demons. So if you think Docker have a better back 6 than the Saints then the same can be said about Dockers having a better back 6 than the Demons. This is not my opinion, it's an opinion that is wrong and can be MANIPULATED to make a point (which is what I am doing).
It should also be pointed out that we beat Docker round 23 without Max King where Sharman kicked 4 goals. Steele has had a subpar year and probably isn't our best midfield player and Marshall isn't our best ruckman (Ryder is.).
 

Scythe94

100-7 🏆
Aug 12, 2017
5,261
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A MickG88 and danster showdown, what a time to be alive!
 

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adge0001

Senior List
Apr 27, 2019
213
178
AFL Club
Collingwood
If Fremantle beat Melbourne in rd.11, would that mean Fremantle have the better defense overall or just for that game?


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danster168

Club Legend
Suspended
Apr 29, 2016
2,945
2,926
AFL Club
Melbourne
We beat GWS in Canberra with Marshall and Hayes going down in the 2nd quarter. We beat a team that has a better midfield than ours without a ruckman because the system that we put in place worked.
You're missing what I am saying. Posters have made the argument that Docker have a better defensive unit than Saints because they don't have as many points kicked on them, The same can be said about Demons. So if you think Docker have a better back 6 than the Saints then the same can be said about Dockers having a better back 6 than the Demons. This is not my opinion, it's an opinion that is wrong and can be MANIPULATED to make a point (which is what I am doing).
It should also be pointed out that we beat Docker round 23 without Max King where Sharman kicked 4 goals. Steele has had a subpar year and probably isn't our best midfield player and Marshall isn't our best ruckman (Ryder is.).
yeah I sort of missed your initial point but I do agree that stats can be made to manipulate anything. Yeah, you can plug holes for a little bit but when your players miss half the season (4 of 8 weeks) you can't really go that long without suffering the consequences. Like Joel Smith for Lever, Jayden Hunt for Salem etc. like it just eats away slowly.

I rate Marshall higher than Ryder. I think Ryder stalls Marshalls development in that Marshall always plays so much better as a solo ruck. The Max king, Marshall, and Steele example was really just used as an example of losing 3 good players. To lose 3 good players in one line is a whole different issue. I guess its like losing 'King, Membrey and Higgins' and question why you're not kicking goals. I think Melbourne have done very well so far to cover the losses.

But out of interest, what is it about the saints that you rate their defence so highly? I rate the saints forward line: King, Higgins, Gresham, Membrey, Butler. These are the guys that worry me. Not so much the personnel in defence.
 

MickG88

Team Captain
May 19, 2017
532
644
AFL Club
St Kilda
yeah I sort of missed your initial point but I do agree that stats can be made to manipulate anything. Yeah, you can plug holes for a little bit but when your players miss half the season (4 of 8 weeks) you can't really go that long without suffering the consequences. Like Joel Smith for Lever, Jayden Hunt for Salem etc. like it just eats away slowly.
Melbourne are blessed because of Steven May, he is the best defender in the comp at the moment. He was playing on King for most of the game and when King kicked his two goals in the third you could see it was against Petty both times. Goodwin swung May back on King to stop him from getting on a roll. The guys so versatile it's not funny. Brayshaw has really taken over the Salem role and done just as good a job as Salem would of being doing. For me those are the two that really stop Saints from getting more scoring shots (plus Langdon on the wing.)
I rate Marshall higher than Ryder. I think Ryder stalls Marshalls development in that Marshall always plays so much better as a solo ruck. The Max king, Marshall, and Steele example was really just used as an example of losing 3 good players. To lose 3 good players in one line is a whole different issue. I guess its like losing 'King, Membrey and Higgins' and question why you're not kicking goals. I think Melbourne have done very well so far to cover the losses.
Ryder is a really good tap ruckmen where as Marshall isn't, Marshall is a very good ruckman who can get his own clearances. To me I would say Marshall is a better Ruck/forward than a solo ruck but we have a young guy named Max Heath how is going to be a pretty damn good ruck.
But out of interest, what is it about the saints that you rate their defence so highly? I rate the saints forward line: King, Higgins, Gresham, Membrey, Butler. These are the guys that worry me. Not so much the personnel in defence.
Question: In the first half, How many of your goals were score from stoppages compared to marks? and think about how many times the ball came into the Demons forward line.

Saints back 6
Callum Wilkie is a great one on one defender, not losing more than a handful of 1v1 a game (I think he had Fritsch during the Demons game.)
Ben Paton (before his broken leg) was a fantastic lockdown defender, He is in the same boat as Wilkie. Battle is newish to the role of CHB but you know what you get each game, Great physical attributes coupled with ferocity at the ball and player. Howard (not a huge fan) is a good FB, his kicking skills along with decision making could be better but you ask another Saints fan and they could talk him up. Webster is just a hard at it type of small defender who you know will make some mistakes but not to many times during a game.
And we have several defensive winger float there the last position, Sinclair, Hill and McKenzie which all deliver run off half back with some dare and precision ball use. I think the one thing we are missing is that intercept marking defender but we have Highmore and Lienert who both can play that role.
 

Falcon3518

All Australian
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Mar 13, 2022
762
437
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Richmond
We are interesting, we have the second most points scored this season so our attack is elite. Only behind the lions. If we can fix up our defence which looks likely now because our players are pretty much fully fit from this round onward (unless we get more injuries) I think we can challenge.
 

Purple Suit

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 30, 2011
10,522
17,001
Freo
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Fremantle
We are interesting, we have the second most points scored this season so our attack is elite. Only behind the lions. If we can fix up our defence which looks likely now because our players are pretty much fully fit from this round onward (unless we get more injuries) I think we can challenge.
Score against / defence isn't just about the defenders, it's about the midfield battle and how much ball is coming in and under what pressure. You could have the best back six in the league but if you have the worst midfield you might get belted. I wouldn't be using a game against WC as any sort of measure and you only beat Collingwood by 5 goals with some very accurate kicking. Jury still out on Richmond.
 
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KissKiss

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 26, 2012
5,959
5,423
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Brisbane Lions
Score against / defence isn't just about the defenders, it's about the midfield battle and how much ball is coming in and under what pressure. You could have the best back six in the league but if you have the worst midfield you might get belted. I wouldn't be using a game against WC as any sort of measure and you only beating Collingwood by 5 goals with some very accurate kicking. Jury still out on Richmond.
Id heavily agree with this. I'd say that purely on the back 6 Brisbane's defence is right up there. Andrews Adams Rich Starc are all very good. But when teams get a run over us it falls apart from a lack of defensive pressure and running from the forwards and midfields. Brisbane's 18 man defence is not at the level of the best couple of teams
 

Falcon3518

All Australian
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Mar 13, 2022
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Richmond
Score against / defence isn't just about the defenders, it's about the midfield battle and how much ball is coming in and under what pressure. You could have the best back six in the league but if you have the worst midfield you might get belted. I wouldn't be using a game against WC as any sort of measure and you only beat Collingwood by 5 goals with some very accurate kicking. Jury still out on Richmond.

Yeah this is why I said fully fit players in general not just defenders. Despite playing WC we have had one of the hardest draws in the comp so far, it only gets easier from here. Idk if I’ve mentioned it previously on this thread but we still have to play North, WC again, GC, Port x2 and Bombers x2. All winnable games we can push for top 4.
 

Nicho50

Senior List
Apr 20, 2022
162
221
AFL Club
Richmond
History shows more often than not teams that are dominant for the H & A season don't win it.

Pains me to say but 2018 we were far and away the best side in the comp by a long way. Miles better as a team unit than the premiers West Coast and Runner Up Collingwood. Unfortunately we got to a stage where late in the year we couldn't finish lower than top 2 so we rested some players with niggles scrambled a couple of lucky wins against Ess and WB but lost the mojo. Beat Hawks in a final, Dusty got injured and we got annihilated in the prelim to the Pies, the game was over in 20 mins.

Melbourne at this stage are so far ahead of the next pack it would be worrying if they get towards the back end start resting players or they loose a few key players to injury. It also gives the entire competition to have a good look at every game they play and pick at any little signs they see from other teams that play against them for weaknesses. Lot of pressure going into finals series as the team to beat.
 

BarbieITFC

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May 11, 2015
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A MickG88 and danster showdown, what a time to be alive!
Reminds me of the time where I sat in a room with my parents during the middle of their divorce arguing over custody of me and my brother - strange to watch people argue about you and to not to be asked your opinion.

For what it's worth, I think it's a bold claim that St Kilda have a better defence this year than Freo. 8 games is enough of a body of work to suggest that conceding an average of 57 points a game would mean your defence is performing better than a team averaging 71 points conceded per game - even allowing for variation in who you've played. Especially given that only once this season have we conceded more than the Saints average points conceded (R1 against the Crows).

But, I don't think we can reasonably claim that we're a better defence than the Demons when they've only conceded four points a game more than us - especially when they only averaged 64 points against last season.

The Squiggle is pretty spot on with how the defences across the league are rated.

Not to take anything away from the Saints defence - they are clearly performing well.

1652420372906.png
 

Crusty Demon

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Sep 20, 2009
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We are interesting, we have the second most points scored this season so our attack is elite. Only behind the lions. If we can fix up our defence which looks likely now because our players are pretty much fully fit from this round onward (unless we get more injuries) I think we can challenge.
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Crusty Demon

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Everyone thought Richmond was unbeatable in 2018. All it takes is one bad Prelim to mess everything up. I think the only team that can beat Melbourne is themselves, Richmond style in a Prelim. Just one bad game when the other team plays the game of their lives, and it's done.
Exactly! Clearly the best team in it right now. By a bit of a way too. But one bad game, a couple of unexpected injuries, come up against a team who play out of their skin. Anything is still possible. No guarantees we win anything this year, but you can't argue the Dees are clearly #1..
 

Demonic Ascent

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Feb 21, 2006
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We are interesting, we have the second most points scored this season so our attack is elite. Only behind the lions. If we can fix up our defence which looks likely now because our players are pretty much fully fit from this round onward (unless we get more injuries) I think we can challenge.
I would be shocked if Richmond made it past the semis. They'll make finals on the back of a cupcake draw and may get a shock win in week 1 but can't see them challenging the top teams.
 

Falcon3518

All Australian
Suspended
Mar 13, 2022
762
437
AFL Club
Richmond
I would be shocked if Richmond made it past the semis. They'll make finals on the back of a cupcake draw and may get a shock win in week 1 but can't see them challenging the top teams.

We’ll see. You haven’t seen us fully fit with Dusty in yet. If we play you guys in a prelim it means we’ve found form and you’d shit yourself a little bit.
 

Scythe94

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Aug 12, 2017
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We’ll see. You haven’t seen us fully fit with Dusty in yet. If we play you guys in a prelim it means we’ve found form and you’d shit yourself a little bit.
Playing against that midfield in a Preliminary Final would be a dream.
 

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