How Crow Can You Go? An Adelaide Football Club Saga

Where will Adelaide finish?


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Arr0w

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 13, 2015
21,011
54,128
In Transit
AFL Club
Carlton
You mean like Richmond who got Deledio and Rance as priority picks, or Geelong who got Scarlett, the Ablett brothers, Tim Callan, Mark Blake, Tom Hawkins, Jed Bews & Oscar Brownless as father sons and now have every second player nominate them as a destination club? Or COllingwood who got Didak & Thomas as priorities plus the Shaws, Clokes, Moore, Brown, Daicos & Kelly as father sons plus Quaynor as an academy player?

It is amazing what those clubs did with no AFL assistance!!
Rance at pick 18? Yeah we couldn't even use our first round picks well

Fathers sons, available to all clubs, we should have looked at DNA cloning?

Didak and Thomas are no longer at the Pies, yet their recruiting continued to be first rate?

Quaynor is an academy player, like we have one, that we should invest in better

The entitlement of some our supporters is staggering
 

Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
3,344
8,650
AFL Club
Carlton
Rance at pick 18? Yeah we couldn't even use our first round picks well

Fathers sons, available to all clubs, we should have looked at DNA cloning?

Didak and Thomas are no longer at the Pies, yet their recruiting continued to be first rate?

Quaynor is an academy player, like we have one, that we should invest in better

The entitlement of some our supporters is staggering
As usual you miss the point deliberately and entirely because it is easier than challenging your own opinion.

And this is nothing to do with entitlement, simply a realisation that the game is crooked and piously clinging to our purity while even else has their noses well and truly in the trough is pointless. But you do always like to be holier than thou.
 

Arr0w

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 13, 2015
21,011
54,128
In Transit
AFL Club
Carlton
As usual you miss the point deliberately and entirely because it is easier than challenging your own opinion.

And this is nothing to do with entitlement, simply a realisation that the game is crooked and piously clinging to our purity while even else has their noses well and truly in the trough is pointless. But you do always like to be holier than thou.
Crooked? Sure, the AFL caused us to draft poorly and mismanage our list

Staggering
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
5,561
6,408
AFL Club
Carlton
You mean like Richmond who got Deledio and Rance as priority picks, or Geelong who got Scarlett, the Ablett brothers, Tim Callan, Mark Blake, Tom Hawkins, Jed Bews & Oscar Brownless as father sons and now have every second player nominate them as a destination club? Or COllingwood who got Didak & Thomas as priorities plus the Shaws, Clokes, Moore, Brown, Daicos & Kelly as father sons plus Quaynor as an academy player?

It is amazing what those clubs did with no AFL assistance!!
The entire system is a joke so much so it’s hardly worth discussing who got who from where. Watching Quaynor last week mad me absolutely sick. The kid looks like he could be an absolute star and they got him for absolutele sh*t
 

Bamboo Harvester

Club Legend
Sep 19, 2018
2,803
12,019
Shark Bay
AFL Club
Carlton
Rance at pick 18? Yeah we couldn't even use our first round picks well

Fathers sons, available to all clubs, we should have looked at DNA cloning?

Didak and Thomas are no longer at the Pies, yet their recruiting continued to be first rate?

Quaynor is an academy player, like we have one, that we should invest in better

The entitlement of some our supporters is staggering
Although we have to keep in mind that the AFL create the 'policies'....the problem is that they are so loose in their application that supporters have no idea what their club is entitled to. Originally if a club had 4 wins or less in a season, it received a priority pick....it's now just a fuzzy application type scenario that the decision/outcome is based on some criteria that nobody has any idea what these are. Same goes with compensation of free agents. Policy on the run is always going to cause angst among the punters.

Totally agree that the draft system, f/sons, NGA and academies are all great initiatives, and we have to get better at some of these to help sustain our list into the future.
 

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LemmingMaster

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 13, 2008
10,672
5,367
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
Carlton
If Carlton or GCS are not eligible for a PP, then NO club will ever get one.

I would love to know under which metric a club could get a PP?

The only thing I could see is a plane crash that wipes out a team. I just cannot see a PP ever be given based on onfield performance, because Carlton has been terrible for 5 years.
 

KohPhi

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 24, 2015
20,044
66,686
AFL Club
Carlton
You mean like Richmond who got Deledio and Rance as priority picks, or Geelong who got Scarlett, the Ablett brothers, Tim Callan, Mark Blake, Tom Hawkins, Jed Bews & Oscar Brownless as father sons and now have every second player nominate them as a destination club? Or COllingwood who got Didak & Thomas as priorities plus the Shaws, Clokes, Moore, Brown, Daicos & Kelly as father sons plus Quaynor as an academy player?

It is amazing what those clubs did with no AFL assistance!!
You make a couple of valid points but your argument has a couple of holes.
Andrew Walker- priority pick
Shaun Sampson - priority pick
Whitnal, Blackwell, Buckley, Silvagni x 2 (and 1 coming) plus opportunity to take Manton and Hickmott x 2, Sheldon and Hunter in the past.

It's not the AFL's fault our sons were generally shitter than Geelong's.
 
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Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
3,344
8,650
AFL Club
Carlton
Still playing the man, rather than formulating a factual response?
Whats the point in formulating a factual response to you when you will simply set up another strawman.

And it isn't "playing the man" to observe that your "Crooked? Sure, the AFL caused us to draft poorly and mismanage our list" statement has nothing to do with my assertion that the draft is compromised.
 

Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
3,344
8,650
AFL Club
Carlton
You make a couple of valid points but your argument has a couple of holes.
Andrew Walker- priority pick
Shaun Sampson - priority pick
Whitnal, Blackwell, Buckley, Silvagni x 2 (and 1 coming) plus opportunity to take Manton and Hickmott x 2, Sheldon and Hunter in the past.

It's not the AFL's fault our sons were generally s**tter than Geelong's.
The aren't holes in my argument, they prove it. The draft is and has been incredibly compromised, there is no point playing a "pure" game and eschewing any AFL assistance when AFL assistance infests the entire draft.
 

Arr0w

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 13, 2015
21,011
54,128
In Transit
AFL Club
Carlton
Whats the point in formulating a factual response to you when you will simply set up another strawman.

And it isn't "playing the man" to observe that your "Crooked? Sure, the AFL caused us to draft poorly and mismanage our list" statement has nothing to do with my assertion that the draft is compromised.
Still with the strawman? Okay, I will entertaining you and I will address that soon enough. Given enough rope you always seem tie your own noose

Firstly, your response earlier in this interaction, was factually incorrect, Didak was never a PP, perhaps you should work on your research. You then mention a series of other players that were taken with aa PP, Deledio in 2004, I will counter that with Murphy in 2005. Then Rance in 2007, end of the 1st round, Kruezer as a PP in the same draft. So was in the PP or the talent identification that was better? We then made the decision to force out a player that didn't want to leave the club, a future hall of famer in Kennedy and a soild foot soldier in Masten, (both recent flag winners) for 2 players that are no longer in the game. Poor list management?

Now on the "strawman" comment. My post was only based on the discussion of priority picks, you then introduce father sons and academy picks, is that not where the "strawman" deflection started? Ironic isn't. So, while on father sons and academy players, we had/have the same assess/benefits as all other clubs, as the ones you mentioned in the Cats and Pies. Should we get a PP, due to ours being of lesser quality?

Is that noose tightening?
 

footyfan1978

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
24,740
26,422
spacetime
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
there are no other teams worthy
Wouldn't it have been amazing if prior to 2015 our inept recruiters did what they were suppose to do, just like the Crows, Pies, Tigers, Cats to name a few that like us never had access to academy players, yet built strong competative sides, rather than begging for a handout

And now that we all have access to NGA, like other sides, perhaps we will focus on developing kids in that zone
You mean like Richmond who got Deledio and Rance as priority picks, or Geelong who got Scarlett, the Ablett brothers, Tim Callan, Mark Blake, Tom Hawkins, Jed Bews & Oscar Brownless as father sons and now have every second player nominate them as a destination club? Or COllingwood who got Didak & Thomas as priorities plus the Shaws, Clokes, Moore, Brown, Daicos & Kelly as father sons plus Quaynor as an academy player?

It is amazing what those clubs did with no AFL assistance!!
Man how do you remember all of that? I would struggle to remember what CFC players delisted from 5 years ago would look like.
Footywire draft history!!
quality work :thumbsu: - now quit disparaging arrow and you'll have access to the executive toilet at bf manor..........
never been there, probably somewhere I need to head to..

Not seen footywire draft history so will not comment on it as unsure how detailed or accurate it is.
But plenty of other sources exist when you want to look stuff up.

IMO, not enough keen footy fans take proper notice of how lists are built or re-built as sustained contention and premiership success group of players.
If you start to take notice of a proper draft era where clubs should take drafting seriously a good place to start is mid's 1990's once under 19's was fazed out and soon after concessions and compromises to a national draft system were mostly removed. Soon after Fremantle and Port came in.
There are websites that do a really good job of helping trace back how clubs became into a position of good lists and also how many stuff it up.
One thing that does stand out in the priority pick system that originated when Sydney was really bad in early 1990's really helped launch clubs from bottom towards top half of ladder over time and also make it hard to stay up near the top.

Every Draft pick and player trade. This site is super in terms of detail of data on draft picks in general and tracing back how trades and draft picks move around.

That link gives the most basic info of players name and year drafted and to which club. Not as good as the previous link but a quick link to just see if you can find a player name via control F on keyboard and year drafted.

This link gives you a list of every player that played as senior game for the club in this league.
What I find interesting with this source is it gives you the players date of birth, his age on debut for club and the order of player appearing as a senior player (example , Stocker our 1206th player in league history to debut)
Better still you can sort this list which means you can see a whole generation of players for any club come along over a number of years and cause a core group that becomes successful.
You can look up any club as I just gave link to Carlton as an example.

Also more recent years if you look up an AFL Draft year in Wikipedia each year tends to have trades and various drafts and de-listings for that off season in one place.
When you cross reference this stuff with draft guru site you can virtually trace back any info you like.

Combine these sources together and you can really get some know how of what draft picks are worth in general depending on pick number and also have a good feel for likelyhood of finding players in draft.
But also you can see how priority picks early this century and late last really gave some clubs a real leg up from winning less than 6 games back then.

Priority picks as we know are not what they used to be as really early ones virtually gone. Hopefully for good.


Although we have to keep in mind that the AFL create the 'policies'....the problem is that they are so loose in their application that supporters have no idea what their club is entitled to. Originally if a club had 4 wins or less in a season, it received a priority pick....it's now just a fuzzy application type scenario that the decision/outcome is based on some criteria that nobody has any idea what these are. Same goes with compensation of free agents. Policy on the run is always going to cause angst among the punters.

Totally agree that the draft system, f/sons, NGA and academies are all great initiatives, and we have to get better at some of these to help sustain our list into the future.
If Carlton or GCS are not eligible for a PP, then NO club will ever get one.

I would love to know under which metric a club could get a PP?

The only thing I could see is a plane crash that wipes out a team. I just cannot see a PP ever be given based on onfield performance, because Carlton has been terrible for 5 years.
Not keen on PP's. The main reason being that it's such a grey area at the AFL's discretion. I suppose if it was black and white where teams had to tick boxes to be entitled to a PP, then the tanking argument comes into play. Surely there is a better way to help teams consistently down the bottom.
The old PP was too much help. I really did not like how Saints through being sh*t rewarded to get a very good list via priority picks that lead to multiple grand finals. Obviously they took advantage well too but follow it up with Hawks and Pies soon after and see how it gave them multiple really early picks it is frustrating to see the difference now where to get early picks you got to trade some of your current talent to get more early picks which only makes the initial period of building add more pain before you wait for a bunch of talented youngster mature. But I prefer this way now without the really early priority picks as clubs have to work harder and less rewarded for simply being down the bottom.
 
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Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
3,344
8,650
AFL Club
Carlton
Still with the strawman? Okay, I will entertaining you and I will address that soon enough. Given enough rope you always seem tie your own noose

Firstly, your response earlier in this interaction, was factually incorrect, Didak was never a PP, perhaps you should work on your research. You then mention a series of other players that were taken with aa PP, Deledio in 2004, I will counter that with Murphy in 2005. Then Rance in 2007, end of the 1st round, Kruezer as a PP in the same draft. So was in the PP or the talent identification that was better? We then made the decision to force out a player that didn't want to leave the club, a future hall of famer in Kennedy and a soild foot soldier in Masten, (both recent flag winners) for 2 players that are no longer in the game. Poor list management?

Now on the "strawman" comment. My post was only based on the discussion of priority picks, you then introduce father sons and academy picks, is that not where the "strawman" deflection started? Ironic isn't. So, while on father sons and academy players, we had/have the same assess/benefits as all other clubs, as the ones you mentioned in the Cats and Pies. Should we get a PP, due to ours being of lesser quality?

Is that noose tightening?
Sigh - still building that strawman. You only think my noose is tightening because you are arguing a completely different point.

My point is simple, the draft is incredibly compromised with all sorts of assistance PP, FS, Academies - you pointing to all the assistance we got only enhances my argument.

No one is arguing the blues didn't draft poorly.

As for Didak, this is from footywire - the P stands for "Priority" - if that is in correct take it up with them.
707637


As for your original post being about PP this is it, you note it mentions only "handouts" and no access to academy players - you are as loose with the truth as your are with the noose.

"Wouldn't it have been amazing if prior to 2015 our inept recruiters did what they were suppose to do, just like the Crows, Pies, Tigers, Cats to name a few that like us never had access to academy players, yet built strong competative sides, rather than begging for a handout"
 
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Arr0w

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 13, 2015
21,011
54,128
In Transit
AFL Club
Carlton
Sigh - still building that strawman. You only think my noose is tightening because you are arguing a completely different point.

My point is simple, the draft is incredibly compromised with all sorts of assistance PP, FS, Academies - you pointing to all the assistance we got only enhances my argument.

No one is arguing the blues didn't draft poorly.

As for Didak, this is from footywire - the P stands for "Priority" - if that is in correct take it up with them.
View attachment 707637

As for your original post being about PP this is it, you note it mentions only "handouts" and no access to academy players - you are as loose with the truth as your are with the noose.

"Wouldn't it have been amazing if prior to 2015 our inept recruiters did what they were suppose to do, just like the Crows, Pies, Tigers, Cats to name a few that like us never had access to academy players, yet built strong competative sides, rather than begging for a handout"
You really are struggling Macca, perhaps you should go back to my original post

If you are saying the main point of your argument is that the AFL is compromised in these matters, why are you in the pro PP party? It's a real contradiction
 

Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
3,344
8,650
AFL Club
Carlton
You really are struggling Macca, perhaps you should go back to my original post

If you are saying the main point of your argument is that the AFL is compromised in these matters, why are you in the pro PP party? It's a real contradiction
I have knocked down one strawman so you thought you would start on another. The fact you think my position is contradictory shows how pointless trying to have a legitimate discussion with you is. My point is (and I have stated this clearly numerous times) that the draft is completely compromised so us trying to be pure and not look into a PP is pointless. Either everyone is clean or everyone is dirty.

I posted your "original post" that started our interaction.

But anyway I dare say you will cobble together some other strawman to try and reassure yourself you haven't been shown to be completely wrong, knock yourself out, I am done with my remedial class.
 

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