How Crow Can You Go? An Adelaide Football Club Saga

[LemmingMaster]

Well I know full well he wasn't in the crows top 8, or Ports top 6.
Everyone is speculating, but nobody had him ahead of Walsh, King x 2, Rozee, Rankine, Luko at a minimum.

Where was he rated, please tell me?

Lets just pretend that nobody had him infront of those players you listed. So you're saying that everyone else could have rated him 7th.
I've even given some ground and still there is the ability for him to be rated in the top 10.

(This is even ignoring the fact that you still cannot show me where all 17 teams rated Stocker.) You can speculate, that is about all you can do.
I think that is the simple point which you just have to accept.

 

[DangerSloane]

Where was he rated, please tell me?

Lets just pretend that nobody had him infront of those players you listed. So you're saying that everyone else could have rated him 7th.
I've even given some ground and still there is the ability for him to be rated in the top 10.

(This is even ignoring the fact that you still cannot show me where all 17 teams rated Stocker.) You can speculate, that is about all you can do.
I think that is the simple point which you just have to accept.

Yes could've had him 7th at best.
But statistically unlikely given another 10 blokes went after the top 7 and before Stocker.

You cant show me where any teams rated Stocker.
You're going off what Carlton said publicly, which we all know is spin.

 

[DangerSloane]

Quite possibly we will beat your lot of pretenders again and help derail and waste another season of high expectations.

I'm death riding carlton as much as the next crows supporter, but I would still smirk if this happened.

 

[LemmingMaster]

Yes could've had him 7th at best.
But statistically unlikely given another 10 blokes went after the top 7 and before Stocker.

You cant show me where any teams rated Stocker.
You're going off what Carlton said publicly, which we all know is spin.

I cannot show you where other teams rated Stocker and YOU CANNOT AS WELL.

Glad we've cleared that up, it has taken you a while to get there, but you made it.

I feel like giving you a scratch and sniff sticker.

 

[DangerSloane]

I cannot show you where other teams rated Stocker and YOU CANNOT AS WELL.

Glad we've cleared that up, it has taken you a while to get there, but you made it.

I feel like giving you a scratch and sniff sticker.

Oh the irony of the debate beginning with one of your supporters making a statement and ends with you trying to tell me its a bad assumption.

I'm not the one that claimed he could've been 2nd pick of every club (not only impossible but also wrong).

The statistics tell you he was very unlikely to be anyone's 2nd pick.

 

[jezzajay]

I cant follow the conversation in here, clearly there are crows supporters i have on ignore sniffing around.
By the looks of all your responses to them maybe you guys understand why I did put them on ignore - due to the nonsense, going around in circles with nothing factual to back their opinions with.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

It's hard to bash the club for doing this given that when we made the call we had a healthy Sam Docherty. Sam slots in and we win 3 already this year for sure.

But things change very quickly when injuries mount.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I totally disagree. Club saw a chance to get a kid they rated at 6 for a later pick whilst maybe losing a few spots in this years draft. Knowing that they have a number of players in mind to trade for it or that they will trust their drafting to get a very good player whether it be Pick 5, 9 or 12.

What number Pick was Charlie or Cripps or McKay?

People really do over analyse this. We got a gun young midfielder we rated and wanted now and we have another pick this year. Once again SOS was able to turn one pick into multiple options.

It’s not that difficult

The hole in this argument is we THINK Stocker will be a gun but dont KNOW .

We've had a number of pick 1's of recent years and have never traded them but if we did you can guarantee that it would only be for a readymade proven GUN player similar to what we did with Juddy but using pick 3.

As of now and yes that can change Adelaide may well receive pick 1 and we will have traded away that pick for a POSSIBLE gun player Stocker and the CHANCE to HOPEFULLY land a very good player by trading away Adelaides pick if not using at the draft .
If we can't find or convince that readymade player to join us with Adelaides pick then we've traded away POSSIBLY pick 1 for 2 young players yet more young players added to the side is that what we need ?.
That is a very ballsy move and if it comes off the club and SOS should be applauded but if it doesn't then the club in particular SOS should also wear the heat for it .
All speculative of course we however won't know the outcome to this for sometime to come and the media will have a field day with it in the meantime .

 

[Crow till I die]

Oh the irony of the debate beginning with one of your supporters making a statement and ends with you trying to tell me its a bad assumption.

I'm not the one that claimed he could've been 2nd pick of every club (not only impossible but also wrong).

The statistics tell you he was very unlikely to be anyone's 2nd pick.

Following this thread and I have a different take on it from what you both are coming at. Everyone knew the draft order before the draft and live trading of picks. There were clubs who did not have a pick before Stocker and they might have had him as their first rated player thinking that he might have been there at their pick. Most clubs would not have had Walsh, Lukosius, Rankine on their list as they knew they had no chance of getting them and as such they rank players on who they suspect will be available at their pick. Therefore Stocker was the 19th player picked but he may have been ranked 1st for Hawthorn if they had any outside thoughts of him slipping to their pick. Obviously live trading clouds this a bit. As an exercise, if Carlton had picks 1,2,3,4,5,6 - would they have used the 6th pick on Stocker? - I doubt it considering who was still there to be drafted, but that is just my opinion

 

[Robertio]

The hole in this argument is we THINK Stocker will be a gun but dont KNOW .

We've had a number of pick 1's of recent years and have never traded them but if we did you can guarantee that it would only be for a readymade proven GUN player similar to what we did with Juddy but using pick 3.

As of now and yes that can change Adelaide may well receive pick 1 and we will have traded away that pick for a POSSIBLE gun player Stocker and the CHANCE to HOPEFULLY land a very good player by trading away Adelaides pick if not using at the draft .
If we can't find or convince that readymade player to join us with Adelaides pick then we've traded away POSSIBLY pick 1 for 2 young players yet more young players added to the side is that what we need ?.
That is a very ballsy move and if it comes off the club and SOS should be applauded but if it doesn't then the club in particular SOS should also wear the heat for it .
All speculative of course we however won't know the outcome to this for sometime to come and the media will have a field day with it in the meantime .

All boils down to Silvagni was right or Silvagni was wrong which we wont know for a while but it was a ballsy move.

 

[Iamcarlton]

All boils down to Silvagni was right or Silvagni was wrong which we wont know for a while but it was a ballsy move.

Thanks for summarizing I can be a bit longwinded at times I know

 

[Jeremias]

It was stated by one of your fellow supporters that "Stocker could've been 2nd on every teams list".

OK, so not by me.

Maybe argue that point with whoever raised it, rather than bringing it into this discussion?

You're going to continue with your "if this then that" approach which isnt applicable here.

Um...sure?

I'm not even sure what that means.

So what you're saying is that out of the top 18 players chosen at least 9 of them werent on other clubs top 10s.
The odds of what you're saying are slim, and then when logic comes into it, virtually nil.

What I am saying has not changed since the trade went through.

We do not know where any club other than Carlton rated Stocker.

You, however, keep posting how sure you are of certain rankings, which makes it odd that when asked to produce any rankings to support your point, you can't do it. I wonder why?

It shouldnt matter anyway. You blokes took the risk and right now it's looking like a mistake at this early stage.
But if stocker becomes a gun, or results go strangely in the 2nd half of the year, that can change very quickly.

No s**t it doesn't matter. Again, that is exactly what I have said from the moment the trade went through.

Why should we care where the 17 other clubs rated Stocker?

We rated him highly, saw an opportunity to bring him in, and jumped at it. I'd hate to support a club that doesn't back their judgement, and take such opportunities, as you end up ruing what may have been. See the Crows at the end of 2016 - wanted Gibbs, convinced him to come, but were too soft to pull the trigger on a trade. Oh what could have been.

As for "looking like a mistake", spare me. Leave that sort of sensationalist garbage to the Herald Sun. The clear main factor here for us now is the development of Liam Stocker, so it is absurd for anyone to make a judgement call on this after one senior game.

 

[FAITH]

Who does Stocker play like? Someone said he's like a young Scott Thompson (Our one).

 

[Arr0w]

Who does Stocker play like? Someone said he's like a young Scott Thompson (Our one).

I see Angus Brayshaw traits

 

[Robertio]

Who does Stocker play like? Someone said he's like a young Scott Thompson (Our one).

I hope so.

 

[DangerSloane]

OK, so not by me.

Maybe argue that point with whoever raised it, rather than bringing it into this discussion?



Um...sure?

I'm not even sure what that means.



What I am saying has not changed since the trade went through.

We do not know where any club other than Carlton rated Stocker.

You, however, keep posting how sure you are of certain rankings, which makes it odd that when asked to produce any rankings to support your point, you can't do it. I wonder why?



No **** it doesn't matter. Again, that is exactly what I have said from the moment the trade went through.

Why should we care where the 17 other clubs rated Stocker?

We rated him highly, saw an opportunity to bring him in, and jumped at it. I'd hate to support a club that doesn't back their judgement, and take such opportunities, as you end up ruing what may have been. See the Crows at the end of 2016 - wanted Gibbs, convinced him to come, but were too soft to pull the trigger on a trade. Oh what could have been.

As for "looking like a mistake", spare me. Leave that sort of sensationalist garbage to the Herald Sun. The clear main factor here for us now is the development of Liam Stocker, so it is absurd for anyone to make a judgement call on this after one senior game.

Um I did argue it with them, you came in over the top to tell me I was wrong.
The irony...

I wonder if youd still think Stocker is the main game if our ladder positions were reversed.
Unfortunately the judgement call will be made dependent on finishing positions this year, not in 10 years when Stocker is or isnt a gun.

A lot of your supporters seem to care where other teams rated him.
The funny part is they all say "you dont know he wasnt 2nd top rated on every clubs list"
But they ignore "you dont know he wasnt rated in the top 2 rounds on every clubs list"

 

[Dadda Dave]

Settle down.

Never said he was second on anyone’s list, I assume you’ve pulled that from where the sun doesn’t shine?

Don’t talk to me about logic then go off on a rant about a club not rating Stocker in the top 10 because they had multiple picks in the top 10 and didn’t pick him.

Which itself is a complete failure of logic yet hilariously you stick with it.

Once again you have given nothing but hot air.

Again, it is possible that every club rated him top 10. It is possible clubs with multiple picks in the top 10 rated him in the top 10.

Not picking him in the top 10 does NOT necessarily equate to not rating him in the top 10.

If that doesn’t get through, just give up. I’m not sure I can make it any more simple for you.

Type that again but this time do it slowly..

 

[Big Red is back]

Crazy thread ... but in summary we gave up as things stand pick 2 for a kid i am pretty confident nobody had in the top 10, so fair to say unless he ends up a gun and or the crows finish bottom 4 we got fleeced.

 

[Robertio]

Um I did argue it with them, you came in over the top to tell me I was wrong.
The irony...

I wonder if youd still think Stocker is the main game if our ladder positions were reversed.
Unfortunately the judgement call will be made dependent on finishing positions this year, not in 10 years when Stocker is or isnt a gun.

A lot of your supporters seem to care where other teams rated him.
The funny part is they all say "you dont know he wasnt 2nd top rated on every clubs list"
But they ignore "you dont know he wasnt rated in the top 2 rounds on every clubs list"

I don't give a stuff where he was rated, we got him with Adelaides pick so all i want is for him to be a regular 22 player.

 

[Jeremias]

Um I did argue it with them, you came in over the top to tell me I was wrong.
The irony...

You are all over the place DS.

You responded to me originally, so to say I "came in over the top" is not correct.

Nowhere did we discuss what you are saying we did. You've worked yourself into a frenzy and have completely bamboozled yourself.

Might be time to take a break mate.

I wonder if youd still think Stocker is the main game if our ladder positions were reversed.

Well yeah, of course I would.I try look at all trades logically regardless of whether or not Carlton is involved.

We obviously rated Stocker very highly and jumped at the opportunity to bring him into the club.

If he becomes the player we clearly believe he might, do you honestly believe we'll look back and care about the pick downgrade to bring him in?

Let's be real. The answer is of course we won't.

Unfortunately the judgement call will be made dependent on finishing positions this year, not in 10 years when Stocker is or isnt a gun.

Unfortunately for you that'll only be the case in the footy media and supporters who frankly don't know any better.

Try and be better than them.

A lot of your supporters seem to care where other teams rated him.
The funny part is they all say "you dont know he wasnt 2nd top rated on every clubs list"
But they ignore "you dont know he wasnt rated in the top 2 rounds on every clubs list"

I don't think any of us are too concerned where others rated Stocker.

Why on earth would where St Kilda (for example) rated Stocker be of any relevance?

As for your final point, we have addressed this already. Scream and shout "OMG NO ONE ELSE RATED HIM!!" all you like, but unless you can provide even one bit of proof to support your argument, you will continue to just embarrass yourself.

And that's fine. Very simple logic will just continue to be used as a counter argument.

 

[Jeremias]

Crazy thread ... but in summary we gave up as things stand pick 2 for a kid i am pretty confident nobody had in the top 10, so fair to say unless he ends up a gun and or the crows finish bottom 4 we got fleeced.

There's you and that confidence again!

So again I will ask, what proof do you have to support that supreme confidence?

Fair to say your shallow analysis of the situation is nothing short of laughable.

 

[sos4pm]

Crazy thread ... but in summary we gave up as things stand pick 2 for a kid i am pretty confident nobody had in the top 10, so fair to say unless he ends up a gun and or the crows finish bottom 4 we got fleeced.

No big red. We gave up as things stand pick 2 for stocker (who teams may or may not have had in top 10 ) and a first round pick which as it stands is pick 13. Same pick we got Patrick Cripps from....
It could be a great deal it could be a disaster. We won’t know until all 3 picks have been in the system for 3-4 years.

 

[DangerSloane]

You are all over the place DS.

You responded to me originally, so to say I "came in over the top" is not correct.

Nowhere did we discuss what you are saying we did. You've worked yourself into a frenzy and have completely bamboozled yourself.

Might be time to take a break mate.

No need for the backhander there mate. Thought mods were supposed to be better than that?
I'll go back through the thread and have a look, but my original replies certainly werent directed to yourself.


Well yeah, of course I would.I try look at all trades logically regardless of whether or not Carlton is involved.

We obviously rated Stocker very highly and jumped at the opportunity to bring him into the club.

If he becomes the player we clearly believe he might, do you honestly believe we'll look back and care about the pick downgrade to bring him in?

Let's be real. The answer is of course we won't.

The answer is dependent on who we both get next year. If it ends up being pick 1 and he's a HOF level player then you certainly will look back and care. The same as we all still talk about trades to this day (like McLeod for Groom).



Unfortunately for you that'll only be the case in the footy media and supporters who frankly don't know any better.

Try and be better than them.

See its not 'better or worse' to have different focus. This is your bias talking.
We didnt want Stocker, crows fans wont focus on that.
Neutrals will be looking at the pick swap because its the most interesting part of the trade.


I don't think any of us are too concerned where others rated Stocker.

Why on earth would where St Kilda (for example) rated Stocker be of any relevance?

As for your final point, we have addressed this already. Scream and shout "OMG NO ONE ELSE RATED HIM!!" all you like, but unless you can provide even one bit of proof to support your argument, you will continue to just embarrass yourself.

And you cant provide one piece of evidence to say he would've been picked at all if CFC didnt take him.
So does that mean we should never talk about where players woulda/coulda/shoulda been drafted? Theres a whole board on BF dedicated to it.

And that's fine. Very simple logic will just continue to be used as a counter argument.

 

[Robertio]

No big red. We gave up as things stand pick 2 for stocker (who teams may or may not have had in top 10 ) and a first round pick which as it stands is pick 13. Same pick we got Patrick Cripps from....
It could be a great deal it could be a disaster. We won’t know until all 3 picks have been in the system for 3-4 years.

In a nutshell.

 

[skittlebrew]

There's you and that confidence again!

So again I will ask, what proof do you have to support that supreme confidence?

Fair to say your shallow analysis of the situation is nothing short of laughable.

We can all agree no one knows exactly where he was ranked by each team.

But the fact that he lasted to pick 19 could we not possibly surmise that he wasn't ranked at pick 6 by many teams?