Analysis How different would today's AFL landscape be if the 1989 merger between Fitzroy and Footscray went ahead, and would that club have been succesful ?

[Purple Suit]

If a two vic club merger worked & the AFL ended up with a big 5, I think you’d have other small clubs accepting that it is a possibility.

 

[Roylion]

It's bizarre that Fitzroy was more concerned with preserving their location than other factors. They had bounced around without a home for decades and their location stuck between Carlton and Collingwood is a major reason why they never developed a big supporter base.

Fitzroy was at the Junction Oval (St Kilda Cricket Ground) between 1970 and 1984 (after St Kilda left at the end of 1964), Fitzroy stalwart Arthur Wilson used to say that was impossible to choose as Fitzroy's true home between the Brunswick Street Oval and the Junction Oval, where the club had its last genuine era of team success. The Junction Oval was also where the club maintained a strong community identity, and attracted decent crowds which was easily accessible via public transport.

Fitzroy were forced to move from the Junction Oval in 1984 as part of VFL's ground rationalisation policy, beginning the process of the Club depending on other clubs such as Carlton and Collingwood (their traditional rivals) to generate significant revenue from a home ground.

Taking advantage of the Western suburbs would be ideal.

It could have possibly worked in the right circumstances.

 

[Truetiger]

What defines successful playing finals or winning premierships. Hard to know if they would have been successful or not.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

A lot of these posts assume the merger would have worked out, but that's far from given.

Just look at the NRL and the NBL.

The North Melbourne Giants and South East Melbourne Magic merged, and then after a few seasons the merged Titans fell over and disappeared.

In other cases, the bigger club ends up swallowing the smaller one.

It happened to the North Sydney Bears after its merger with Manly to create... Basically Manly.

It happened to the Illawarra Steelers after its merger with St George to create... Basically St George but with a few of its home games each year in Wollongong.

And even the "successful" merged clubs have had financial trouble. Just ask the West's Tigers.

So there was no certainty of success for a merged Melbourne – Fitzroy or Footscray – Fitzroy.

 

[jabba5114]

Would they be the Footscray lions or western lions in 2023.

Sent from my motorola edge 30 pro using Tapatalk

 

[Roylion]

So there was no certainty of success for a merged Melbourne – Fitzroy or Footscray – Fitzroy.

No there's not.

The late Ian Ridley said one of his biggest mistakes in negotiating the Melbourne-Hawks merger in 1996 is that Melbourne ignored a key price of research advice in that members and supporters see as the enduring symbols of their club, their colours, the tradition [things like history, club song etc.] and the club emblem and will reject a merger if there wasn't enough of that retained in the new entity.

If the majority of those can be retained in the identity of the new club, then the supporters of both original clubs will feel there is enough of their original club's identiy to warrant their continued support.

The 'Melbourne Lions' would have probably worked. Maybe the 'Footscray Lions' playing out of the Western Oval, instead of the failed proposal of the 'Fitzroy Bulldogs' playing out of Princes Park, which the overwhelming majority of Footscray supporters vehemently rejected.

 

[Coolangatta]

Well, let's see, 1989 you had 14 clubs. Roys-Dogs merger would've equalled 13 clubs, with Adelaide entering in 1991 to make it 14 clubs again.

If successful, maybe we would've gotten another merger between two of Dees-Roos-Saints to make it 13 clubs again, with Fremantle entering to make it 14 clubs. Possibly two more mergers with Port Adelaide entering to bring it back to 14 clubs.

The Bears would still be around, but as some have said, if they failed, there'd probably be no Gold Coast team.

It's hard to say, but I don't think it'd be an 18 team competition at the moment. It'd be 14-16 teams and Tasmania may have already been in the competition.

I'm not sure about Canberra as they've always been neglected by the AFL. Given the relative success of the Swans, I think there was always going to be a Western Sydney team.

I can't speak for others but I don't really care how many teams there are, as long as there's enough talent (there is, maybe not in coaching and development but in players there is), and the clubs are financially viable, with the exception of NT which would be for social good.

 

[pz5151]

Fitzroy was at the Junction Oval (St Kilda Cricket Ground) between 1970 and 1984 (after St Kilda left at the end of 1964), Fitzroy stalwart Arthur Wilson used to say that was impossible to choose as Fitzroy's true home between the Brunswick Street Oval and the Junction Oval, where the club had its last genuine era of team success. The Junction Oval was also where the club maintained a strong community identity, and attracted decent crowds which was easily accessible via public transport.

Fitzroy were forced to move from the Junction Oval in 1984 as part of VFL's ground rationalisation policy, beginning the process of the Club depending on other clubs such as Carlton and Collingwood (their traditional rivals) to generate significant revenue from a home ground.



It could have possibly worked in the right circumstances.

I really enjoy your posts on Fitzroy as they mention a lot of information about the Roys that I wasn't aware of. I was only 10 when they merged so my only memories of them are in the death knells when everyone just felt bad about the position they were in. Who were Fitzroy's rivals prior to that? Us? Did the support base mostly come from around the Fitzroy area or significantly around St Kilda also? Given most of the Melbourne teams follow a straight path out loosely following train lines from their home suburb, did Fitzroy have a heartland similar to what Collingwood had through Northcote, Preston, Heidelberg, etc.?

 

[Walshawk]

I really enjoy your posts on Fitzroy as they mention a lot of information about the Roys that I wasn't aware of. I was only 10 when they merged so my only memories of them are in the death knells when everyone just felt bad about the position they were in. Who were Fitzroy's rivals prior to that? Us? Did the support base mostly come from around the Fitzroy area or significantly around St Kilda also? Given most of the Melbourne teams follow a straight path out loosely following train lines from their home suburb, did Fitzroy have a heartland similar to what Collingwood had through Northcote, Preston, Heidelberg, etc.?

Fitzroy had good support in their Nth/East zone - Doncaster, Templestowe, Montmorency, etc.

 

[Freomaniac]

Well say if they merged, where would the home games be played?

They stopped playing at Junction oval in 1984.

So the likely home games in the 1990s would be Princes Park and Western Oval.

Footscray played their last home game at Western oval or whitten oval in 1997.

When 2000s decade rolls around, my guess is they would be like North Melbourne. Play most of their games in Docklands and sell home games in Tassie or Canberra

 

[Coolangatta]

I think club songs are the hardest thing about mergers. Colours and emblems are doable for some clubs - I think South Melbourne and St Kilda, Bulldogs and North, Melbourne and Fitzroy in terms of colours and emblems could’ve worked.

South Melbourne Saints, North Melbourne Bulldogs, Melbourne Lions.

But the club songs would’ve had to have maintained enough of the original lyrics and sound from each club to make it work. Tough.

If they had have been able to pull it off successfully, we could already have had Tasmania, Canberra, and the NT (as a subsidised club) in what would still be an 18 team competition.

 

[Roylion]

I think club songs are the hardest thing about mergers. Colours and emblems are doable for some clubs - I think South Melbourne and St Kilda, Bulldogs and North, Melbourne and Fitzroy in terms of colours and emblems could’ve worked.

Melbourne Lions.

But the club songs would’ve had to have maintained enough of the original lyrics and sound from each club to make it work. Tough.

It is tough!

Melbourne Lions

We are the boys from old Melbourne
We wear the colours, red, gold and blue
We will always fight for victory....
Keep your eye on the red, gold and blue...

Win or lose we do or die
In defeat we'll always try
Melbourne, Melbourne, the club we hold so dear
Premiers we'll be this year.

 

[Coolangatta]

It is tough!

Melbourne Lions

We are the boys from old Melbourne
We wear the colours, red, gold and blue
We will always fight for victory....
Keep your eye on the red, gold and blue...

Win or lose we do or die
In defeat we'll always try
Melbourne, Melbourne, the club we hold so dear
Premiers we'll be this year.

I asked ChatGPT.

"Verse 1:
We are the boys from old Melbourne town,
Wearing colors maroon and blue, renowned.
From heart and soul, the Demons rise,
With Fitzroy's pride, we touch the skies.

Chorus:
It's a grand old flag we hold so high,
In victory united, reaching for the sky.
With courage and might, side by side we stride,
The Demons and Roys, forever in pride.

Verse 2:
Every heart beats true for the Red and Blue,
For Fitzroy's glory and Lions' hue.
Through battles fought, we do or die,
The Demons and Roys, under one sky.

Chorus:
It's a grand old flag we hold so high,
In victory united, reaching for the sky.
With courage and might, side by side we stride,
The Demons and Roys, forever in pride.

Bridge:
We'll always fight for victory's flame,
In Melbourne's legacy, we share the same.
The Roys' roar and the Demons' grace,
A new era dawns, our spirits embrace.

Chorus:
It's a grand old flag we hold so high,
In victory united, reaching for the sky.
With courage and might, side by side we stride,
The Demons and Roys, forever in pride.

Outro:
From Fitzroy's heart to Melbourne's embrace,
A new chapter begins, as one we face.
The Demons and Roys, a fusion so true,
For the maroon and blue, and the red and blue!"

 

[GoldbergsGold]

It would have made more sense to merge Melbourne based sides rather than relocate

Western Roos
South Melbourne Saints
Melbourne Lions

it would have built up the supporter bases of the smaller clubs. Relocation has probably not resulted in South Melbourne support following the Swans, nor Fitzroy with the Lions.

The same failure would probably result with North moving to Tassie

It would have been better for Fitzroy had they just moved to Brisbane in 1987, which almost happened, with the exact same squad, staff and brand, rather than just handing their brand over to The Bears with a few Fitzroy players in 1997.

 

[peetoo]

It would have been better for Fitzroy had they just moved to Brisbane in 1987, which almost happened, with the exact same squad, staff and brand, rather than just handing their brand over to The Bears with a few Fitzroy players in 1997.

Or to Tassie?

 

[Roylion]

It would have been better for Fitzroy had they just moved to Brisbane in 1987, which almost happened,

That's easy to say in hindsight. However the Fitzroy board's preference was (in order)
1. Continue as a stand alone entity in Melbourne. (i.e. Fitzroy Lions)
2. Merge with a Melbourne based club so that Fitzroy supporters could still watch their team more 5-6 times a season. Three serious attempts were made..Melbourne Lions 1986, Fitzroy Bulldogs 1989, North Fitzroy Kangaroos 1996)
3. Relocate interstate partially or wholly. Three were seriously considered. (Sydney Lions 1980, Brisbane Lions 1986, Canberra 1996 - proposal to play 7 home games was put to the AFL)

with the exact same squad, staff and brand, rather than just handing their brand over to The Bears with a few Fitzroy players in 1997.

The AFL did that with their intellectually owned property rights. Fitzroy still exists in its own right in Melbourne, still representing the suburb of Fitzroy, as it did when it was formed 140 years ago in 1883.

 

[flamethrower]

It would have been an abject failure. Not only were the vast majority of Footscray members and supporters against it, but many of the better players at Footscray would have joined other clubs as soon as they could get out of their contracts.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

That's easy to say in hindsight. However the Fitzroy board's preference was (in order)
1. Continue as a stand alone entity in Melbourne. (i.e. Fitzroy Lions)
2. Merge with a Melbourne based club so that Fitzroy supporters could still watch their team more 5-6 times a season. Three serious attempts were made..Melbourne Lions 1986, Fitzroy Bulldogs 1989, North Fitzroy Kangaroos 1996)
3. Relocate interstate partially or wholly. Three were seriously considered. (Sydney Lions 1980, Brisbane Lions 1986, Canberra 1996 - proposal to play 7 home games was put to the AFL)



The AFL did that with their intellectually owned property rights. Fitzroy still exists in its own right in Melbourne, still representing the suburb of Fitzroy, as it did when it was formed 140 years ago in 1883.

But the squad split up at the end of 1996, and Fitzroy lost their Lions branding and is only an amateur club, today. It's too bad they couldn't have pushed for a move again if they couldn't pull a Western Bulldogs style revival, instead of just handing their brand and some players to The Bears. I never heard about The Canberra move proposal in 1996, should have pushed for that instead, and maybe just stuck with "The Lions" as their name.

 

[Roylion]

But the squad split up at the end of 1996,

Squads split up in any case.

and Fitzroy lost their Lions branding and is only an amateur club, today.

Yes. But still exist in their own right.

It's too bad they couldn't have pushed for a move again if they couldn't pull a Western Bulldogs style revival, instead of just handing their brand and some players to The Bears.

Fitzroy didn't hand anything to anyone. The AFL owned the "Fitzroy Lion" logo and they were the ones that re-allocated it to the Bears (at the Bears request) when the AFL licence for Fitzroy to compete in the competition was withdrawn. Brisbane received eight pre-draft selections from Fitzroy's list.

I never heard about The Canberra move proposal in 1996, should have pushed for that instead, and maybe just stuck with "The Lions" as their name.

The AFL knocked it back.

 

[Coolangatta]

If Canberra had have gotten Fitzroy, wouldn’t the competition have had 17 teams in the 90s instead of the 16 they wanted at the time?

I would’ve added Tasmania in the 90s to make it 18 teams if we’d have had the Canberra Lions in the comp.

19 and 20 could’ve been Gold Coast and Western Sydney instead of 17 and 18.

 

[Roylion]

If Canberra had have gotten Fitzroy, wouldn’t the competition have had 17 teams in the 90s instead of the 16 they wanted at the time?

Yep.

The Club's application to play in Canberra had the support of 'AFL for Canberra' organisation, the Canberra Raiders, the Ainslee Football Club and the ACT chief minister who had offered for the ACT government to upgrade Bruce Stadium if there were two national teams playing out of the stadium. When adding in corporate sponsorship, and ground rights at Bruce Stadium (which would have been upgraded), the projections showed Fitzroy would have made $1 million extra per season.

However the AFL knocked it back because they wanted to keep the number of clubs in the AFL at 16 (with Port Adelaide's imminent entry) by keeping the pressure on Fitzroy to merge. Fitzroy generating an extra $1 million a year would have seen them avoid considering a merger.

 

[peetoo]

The bastardry of the afl had no level it wouldn’t sink to. Then later the protagonists said ‘maybe we were wrong’ glibly.

If they were actively trying to hamstring significant numbers of clubs to achieve their ‘merger mania’ what does that say about their management of the competition?

It would have been a lot better off without them

Over and over the go to line was ‘ you can’t let emotion cloud your judgement’. Trouble us what is the product they are selling? Emotion

 

[peetoo]

Late nineties they could have added port Adelaide and a second Sydney team. Could have capitalised on the merger mayhem in the NRL super league

Late 2000 added Tassie and Gold Coast.

Had the AFL been more supportive instead of white anting they could be in a much better position now

Hawks in Tassie got begrudging support. The main reason hawks went there? Made money rather than lose it playing at telstra dome. But that’s a whole other story

 

[Coolangatta]

Late nineties they could have added port Adelaide and a second Sydney team. Could have capitalised on the merger mayhem in the NRL super league

Late 2000 added Tassie and Gold Coast.

Had the AFL been more supportive instead of white anting they could be in a much better position now

Hawks in Tassie got begrudging support. The main reason hawks went there? Made money rather than lose it playing at telstra dome. But that’s a whole other story

Hadn't thought of that. With Fitzroy in Canberra, you'd have had the national competition truly set until the NT ever perhaps became a viable option.