How do we come back from this?

Remove this Banner Ad

Jarman3

Premiership Player
Oct 22, 2013
3,525
6,967
AFL Club
Adelaide
It shows that most clubs when they go through a period where they are one of the 'good teams', will usually earn a flag somewhere in there. It might not be the year they finish top 2, but that period of success earns them a flag at some point in there. With one really obvious stand out exception.
Our problem is that even when we've been "one of the good teams", we've never been one for very long. Realistically, it's probably 97-98, 05-06 and 17. There was the occasional one-off prelim in there (93, 02 and 12), but when you're only ever actually up there for 1 or 2 years at a time before collapsing in a heap, then you don't really have a "period of success" in which to win a flag. You either win it this year or come back and try again 5 years later with a different list and a different coach.
 

Niximus

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2007
13,612
13,815
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Our problem is that even when we've been "one of the good teams", we've never been one for very long. Realistically, it's probably 97-98, 05-06 and 17. There was the occasional one-off prelim in there (93, 02 and 12), but when you're only ever actually up there for 1 or 2 years at a time before collapsing in a heap, then you don't really have a "period of success" in which to win a flag. You either win it this year or come back and try again 5 years later with a different list and a different coach.
Really 2002-2017 would actually look really good if they had just capitalised on their chances. Would have been a dominant 15 years.
2002 - Top 4
2003 - missed top 4 by 1 win

2004 - sh*t
2005 - Minor premier
2006 - Top 2

2007 - Top 8
2008 - Missed top 4 by 0.9% (Last match of the season St Kilda won 147 to Essendon 39 for that to happen)
2009 - 5th by a win and %
2010 - sh*t
2011 - sh*t
2012 - Top 2
2013 - sh*t
2014 - sh*t
2015 - Top 8, won a final after death of coach
2016 - Missed top 4 by 4.8% - blew last game at home to lose top 4 after being 2nd with 1 game to go
2017 - GF
 

Murray2503

Brownlow Medallist
May 10, 2016
11,189
9,201
AFL Club
Adelaide
As I posted in the priority pick thread, our current percentage ranks us in the vicinity of such luminaries as Neeld-era Melbourne, the inaugural seasons of the expansion clubs and the dying whimpers of Fitzroy. Even still, all of those teams managed to win a game, so we’re potentially setting a new benchmark for awful-ness.

The biggest problem that I can see is that there’s not 1, or even 2/3 defining factors that have led to current events. While I appreciate that a football forum is a melting pot of differing opinions by definition, a scroll through the first page of this board can attribute our current state to:

- Nicks
- Our coaching team as a whole
- Our midfield structure
- Our forward structure
- Lack of overall talent
- Player retention
- Player development
- Drafting under Ogilvie
- List management under Reid
- Selection philosophies/
- Fitness under Hass
- Unaccountability of the board
- Chapman/Fagan/Ricciuto
- General contempt/indifference for fans
- Loss of trust between players & club (the camp)

The scariest part about this? All of these viewpoints have some validity to them to varying degrees, and solving a couple of them will have minimal effect on the club’s fortunes while the others are left unchecked.

I don’t see any way out of this mess without a clean out of the club from the top down, and as we’ve seen already, one of the few things the higher-ups are competent at is covering their own backsides ie the sham review of everything but themselves.

Anyone got any ideas on any meaningful change that can be impacted to stop us circling the drain? As much as I enjoy taking the piss out of the club, it kills me that we’ve turned into the laughing stock/punching bag of the comp.
In answer to the thread title " How do we come back from this?"
There's only one way to come from this. We need someone from outside the club to completely review the club who knows how to run a good football club. Whether that's an individual or a combination of football expert administrators doesn't really matter as long as it gets done thoroughly. This could have been done last year but those in charge did not want to be exposed. If it needs the AFL to become involved for this to happen please for the love of god do it as I am quite frankly sick of following this embarrassment of a club. The sickening part is that it's not that hard to run a competent club. Not that hard at all once you get incompetent people out. It pisses me off that I follow a club that can't get their sh*t together. It would be so much easier to not follow this club and laugh at it like every other club's supporters. But here we are. My patience like many a supporter is not indefinite and if they don't sort this mess out now they will lose long standing supporters that will never be back regardless whether they turn it around or not at a later date.
 
Last edited:

Log in to remove this ad.

mattymac

Nicks guys finish last
Jul 9, 2009
16,971
29,654
Yes
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
No
Get him back

He and Hamish seemed a good partnership.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
I wish to God we would get Rendell back.

But seriously, would you go back to an employer that hung you out to dry and still has the same chap running the place?

He probably hates us and fair enough too
 

Tas

Premium Gold
Dec 23, 2002
54,521
39,757
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
There can be only one...
From the outside looking in I believe the Crows have just been dealt far too many body blows over the last decade, Crows have been excellent at developing later picks into good footballers, particularly key defenders during Rendell's time at the club. The club has just lost far too much talent over the years and hasn't had much access to great talent, that has been compounded by internal problems like the Tippett fiasco and what has been a steady exodus of really talented players and an unstable environment at the top end of coaching.

Since Craig was shown the door in 2011 the club has had 4 senior coaches and 2 interim coaches in the last 9 years, can't be faulted for Walsh's death but it has created a lack of consistency, clubs like Richmond, Hawthorn and Geelong have had the one guy there for 10+ years.

Some of the talent leaving the club: Davis and Gunston in 2011, Tippett and 2 first round draft picks in 2013, Dangerfield in 2015, Cameron and Lever in 2017, McGovern in 2018, might be others I don't remember. What were trades or compensation picks didn't result in the same calibre of talent coming in. We also had compromised drafts during the GWS and GC formation years.

McGovern and Smith didn't play in the 2017 Grand Final but the Crows played some great footy that year, despite the problems over the years. 14 of those players are still at the club with 6 retiring or being moved on who weren't wanted last year, a fair chunk of that side is still at the club but the top end of the talent is a shadow of what they were a few years ago. They haven't created that stable environment that allows young players to succeed that the previous generation did, the leadership out there is non-existent, it has been a horrific year due to the virus to begin with, it is not a great environment for young kids, a lot of disruption.

There is going to be some lag time, some of the players being picked up you wont know for a few years if they are going to be any good or not. McAsey, Schoenberg, Worrell and O'Connor were good prospects last year as were Jones, McHenry and Hamill the year before. I think Hamill was the only one who played on the weekend.

I don't know much about your coach, he will likely need time to find his footing as well. Brisbane had a similar problem when they were just consistently losing good quality players, once they stopped the outflow of talent it only took a relatively short period of time to get back to playing good footy, because a lot of the kids that aren't in the picture atm probably will be if the other flaws have been addressed.
 

WheresGroomgone

Club Legend
Oct 12, 2006
1,960
1,357
Far West SA
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
The Panthers, Double Blues
I may have missed this during my pandemic binge but did Mattner put his hand up to go or was he chosen? If so who chose him from the other glowing candidates??

What is he doing now?
 

AFC3000

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 20, 2011
5,384
9,225
AFL Club
Adelaide
Our problem is that even when we've been "one of the good teams", we've never been one for very long. Realistically, it's probably 97-98, 05-06 and 17. There was the occasional one-off prelim in there (93, 02 and 12), but when you're only ever actually up there for 1 or 2 years at a time before collapsing in a heap, then you don't really have a "period of success" in which to win a flag. You either win it this year or come back and try again 5 years later with a different list and a different coach.
This is very much our problem, we don't have periods of success.

I put the numbers together a while ago to dismiss our strategy of "just making the 8 and anything can happen".

Basically found that most teams, even if they do shoot up from no where to get a flag, sustain a period of about 5 years where they are very much in the top 4 or at least around the top 4 with percentage or whatever for that period.

Every time we get there, except I think 2005, we've crashed back out of the 8 the next year.

What I haven't looked at is this to do with the way we get there, because we have had some dominant years along the way, do we back everyone in for so long that by the time it comes together they've go one shot? Back in the experience, don't encourage development and so on?

We are perhaps not getting a large enough group of players under 25 to a top 4 finish to sustain a period at the top as a core group.
 

Scrogdogg

Club Legend
May 29, 2018
1,103
984
AFL Club
Adelaide
Fagan earns near $1m/year and promised the best footy dept in the land as that was his skill. He sits on both footy strategy and list management committees, so is part of the 2 groups that set the direction of football. He's a massive part of the problem, but guess what, he's on staff, so not going anywhere as we piss any football generated surpluses away on his loss making dalliances. We've got no money, hence the reason we've had to employ L platers or failed hacks under his watch.
Fagan has just asked the supporters/public to have patience. He/they have taken their bat and ball and gone home to their own privacy. That is about all anyone will be granted from this mob.

Change has got to come from the chairman/board. This can only happen if Chapman goes now.

I have been posting this for years.
 

Jarman3

Premiership Player
Oct 22, 2013
3,525
6,967
AFL Club
Adelaide
This is very much our problem, we don't have periods of success.

I put the numbers together a while ago to dismiss our strategy of "just making the 8 and anything can happen".

Basically found that most teams, even if they do shoot up from no where to get a flag, sustain a period of about 5 years where they are very much in the top 4 or at least around the top 4 with percentage or whatever for that period.

Every time we get there, except I think 2005, we've crashed back out of the 8 the next year.

What I haven't looked at is this to do with the way we get there, because we have had some dominant years along the way, do we back everyone in for so long that by the time it comes together they've go one shot? Back in the experience, don't encourage development and so on?

We are perhaps not getting a large enough group of players under 25 to a top 4 finish to sustain a period at the top as a core group.
New coach honeymoon? Blight in 97-98, then crashed in 99. Craig in 05-06,then gradual decline (made finals but not really looking like premiership contenders), Pyke in 16-17 (ok, didn't get that close in 16, but largely due to cocking up the last minor round game against West Coast which cost us top 4) then crashed in 18.

Our history suggests that our coaches have a maximum useful lifespan of 2 years.
 

Rory Walkerfield

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 6, 2012
8,932
16,047
AFL Club
Adelaide
Fagan has just asked the supporters/public to have patience. He/they have taken their bat and ball and gone home to their own privacy. That is about all anyone will be granted from this mob.

Change has got to come from the chairman/board. This can only happen if Chapman goes now.

I have been posting this for years.
Or in other words, Fagan has asked us to back in the boys. No change.
 

The Smith Revolution

Team Captain
Oct 1, 2004
349
430
The Bay
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Adelaide
My opinion is this.

We grossly overestimated our list. I was at the gf in 2017. We were nowhere near it. I judge strong teams by how many top four powerhouse teams they beat away from home. We didn’t measure up there. Yes we had two great home finals.

It is that time the list should have been blown up. We doubled down with Gibbs and extended all the others.

By doing this, we are now too old and too young. No strong team has this profile. This season was shot no matter who coached. So now we suffer. Four years minimum.

I also believe the camp is a red herring. It’s the list profile and management of such where the true issue lies.

And my final belief is the longer we stay in denial the closer we get to the Carlton syndrome. It is real and staring us in the face.

PS. What happened in the 90’s means Nothing now. What happened ten years ago means nothing. Move forward please AFC. Play The Kids. We can wait but just do the reconstruction properly.


Sent from my iPad using BigFooty.com
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Scrogdogg

Club Legend
May 29, 2018
1,103
984
AFL Club
Adelaide
Thi is a good post. As you’ve pointed out our issues are a combination of many factors. It’s not a matter of only fixing one problem and the rest will fix itself.

Our club needs to have man conversation and admit that they have got it all horribly wrong. The problem is they won’t do that and blame someone else. It’s always someone else’s fault.

I wish I knew where to start to fix this mess. It looks like we need to do another review this year but don’t leave it to the end of the season like last year. We’re half way through the season now so it’s probably a good time to start. Nothing should be off limits - every aspect of the footy department is up for review.

It appears we have so many incompetent people in every key post that it’s going to be hard to fire them all and replace them with competent people all at once. Our brand is completely destroyed and why would any competent person want to come anywhere near the AFC. We will more than likely destroy their reputation making it difficult for them to get another job in the industry. For example, Burton is now working at Thomas Farms, which the AFC may have assisted him with, where he is probably hidden away in corner office where he doesn’t interact with any other employees.

Get the right people in the right positions is a good start but I’m pretty sure that’s what Andrew Fagan said when he first started and we have basically done the opposite.
Unfortunately the admin won't be looking at how they got it wrong. No, they have already cast off a few of their mistakes and will focussed solely on the rebuild, the future. The tone and persona will not cnange if the same people roll on unaffected.
I do not doubt their 'passion for the club' but I have no faith in their established MO which if left unchallenged just means additional prolonged pain for all. Meanwhile don't agitate, don't destabilise. You supporters are just white noise.
 

AFC3000

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 20, 2011
5,384
9,225
AFL Club
Adelaide
New coach honeymoon? Blight in 97-98, then crashed in 99. Craig in 05-06,then gradual decline (made finals but not really looking like premiership contenders), Pyke in 16-17 (ok, didn't get that close in 16, but largely due to cocking up the last minor round game against West Coast which cost us top 4) then crashed in 18.

Our history suggests that our coaches have a maximum useful lifespan of 2 years.
Unrealistic expectations of what a senior coach can do by himself maybe? Overestimating where we are at everywhere else? Not wanting to look too closely at what else is wrong?

Timeline something like:

It's not us it's the senior coach... sacked.

New, inexperienced coach in, let's not make too many changes, we'll see what he thinks and give him what he wants next year...

New coach spike, everyone at their best, not as comfortable as they usually are. We're switched on and spike.

See, we knew it was the senior coach! We're all great, pats on the back...

Old habits, less effort, players that little bit older, comfortable, we might be capable but for whatever excuse it doesn't click, but hey it's round 15 and we're still a chance to make the 8 and from there anything can happen, it doesn't

It doesn't happen this year either... hey what was it that worked last time? I know let's sack the coach.
 
Last edited:

Scrogdogg

Club Legend
May 29, 2018
1,103
984
AFL Club
Adelaide
Footy isn't a linear graph of performance, just because you played well one week, doesn't mean you will repeat it the next and vice versa.

We had a bad loss against a side who seem to like playing us lately, Melbourne beat Hawthorn by plenty and then a few days later play like the biggest rabble known to man.

We have had 2 agonising close losses this year, mixed with some adequate showings against some better sides like:

Brisbane
West Coast
St Kilda

Most Crows supporters are sick of finishing 6-12 and the club trading their good draft picks for magic beans like Gibbs, Carey and Ronnie Burns which will hopefully win us a flag. I sure am.

This is going to be a 2-3 year period of pain and suffering, in that time our recruiting has to be spot on. I can tell you I would rather put up with this and have a golden era in the mid to late 2020's than finish 8th 11th 5th 3rd and 12th over the same period.

Relax, enjoy watching some kids develop and the best we can hope for is to ruin Ports top 4/8 chances along the way.
We are where we are for a reason. The same major decision makers are still there. Take two.
 

Scrogdogg

Club Legend
May 29, 2018
1,103
984
AFL Club
Adelaide
They say winning covers all sins, and so it was proven between 2015 & 2017.

But the opposite is also true. All of our failures of the last 2 years, this year and ongoing will be put in the "rebuilding" bucket. The club can get away with murder because there are no expectations. I have heard nothing from the club to say what the standards are the next 3 seasons. Clearly the performance of the senior players have not been up to standard. How are we going to bring in a bunch of teenagers to develop into our next premiership side if the list they grow and learn from contains Atkins, Knight, Mackay - perennial losers. That's why Carlton, Melbourne, Fremantle have all been in the cycle of loserdom. Once the stink of failure is on you, it doesn't go away until you have a shake up, like Lions did bringing Fagan and Hodge in. You know, winners.

Unfortunately everything coming out of the club sounds like they think you get a few kids, put some games into them and by the time they have 100 games, they'll be rockstars.

That's why we need to bring in winners. The major factor of any future appointment - do they come from a culture of winning. It's why Clarko's assistants have all gone on to big things. They learnt how to win.

Hurn. Edwards. Puopolo. Bring these guys in as either playing or non-playing roles. They aren't there to win games of football themselves. They are there to look around the place, compare it to their teams that won flags, and say "what the fu** are you guys doing?"
Yep. Just think back to how Blight approached his first season at AFC. What would he do with Atkins, MacKay etc. ?
 

CrowBloke

Norm Smith Medallist
May 14, 2017
6,370
5,871
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
West Adelaide/ Team BARTY!
- But if somehow that happens and cycle of boys club appointments is broken and this club finally runs like a professional sports club with a million loyal fans, then I am pretty excited about our future.
Uhhhh, what?
You are pretty excited about our future
IF
"somehow"
[something] happens that fixes the mess that is the Crows? Somehow. Something.

If, somehow, something happened so that the Crows became consistently competitive, respected by their foes, and won just one Flag in the next five years, i'd be delighted.
The core problem is how (see thread title).
How do they get there, from the horror show of yesterday?
 

CrowBloke

Norm Smith Medallist
May 14, 2017
6,370
5,871
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
West Adelaide/ Team BARTY!
ContrarianCrow , I'd add the following to your extensive list:
--- player disunity
--- player disinterest
--- player lack of professionalism (especially decline in skill level).
Since post-bye-2019 I have not seen the Crows play with any enjoyment, or team unity. I don't think Nicks is the bloke to do it, but since he's there I'd implore him to work on some team-building processes.

Here's some ideas for the something/somehow that might be needed:
--- have a one-on-one with each player --- ask them if they are IN, or OUT --- are they committed to team unity and improvement, or not? After you get their agreement, shake their hand and ask them to act, after giving their word.
--- pick the ones who will bleed for the team, their mates, their supporters.
--- identify their strengths and give them free rein to use them in positions/roles that exploit their talents (eg looks like Lairdy and Smithers love having a run in the middle and do it well --- exploit that).
--- ask them where they want to play, where they think they will play best (eg Jones as attacking mid, for now, Hamill at HB only, McAsey Back, or Forward, not both), instead of telling them where you, the Coach, think they should play.
--- tell them to play the game they love, do what they do best, and have some fun and enjoyment doing it.
--- while the Club itself is a Business, footy is still a game, and they'll like it a lot better if win by focussing on doing what they do best, while committing to looking after their mates on the ground.
--- develop a game plan (haven't seen one from Nicks, yet) and get them to learn it and play it with total, man-to-man commitment. Nicks should tell them if it does not work, Nicks will be sacked at Season's end, not them. One-to-one, in private, ask for suggestions, ideas, improvements. Player-input is vital, but the Coach has the final say.
--- do not tolerate players who gripe on-field about how the ball is delivered to them, a la Matthew Richardson.
--- drop players who are not giving their all. Weed out the whingers on-and-off field who undermine and create disunity (I put Jenkins and his imprudent media rants in that category).

If we're going to be beaten by 69 points by the second-worst team in the Comp., let it be by using players who are doing their best, as above. It's certainly not happening, now.
 

Redline

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 18, 2006
5,212
4,239
adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Norwood
Having thought about it I actually agree with Cornsey on one point. We should immediately get a new Chairman. I know that is obvious but I think it needs to be done now or we lose another 12 months. They can be interim but there is no point having Chapman seeing out the year and wasting all the 2021 planning.
 

CrowBloke

Norm Smith Medallist
May 14, 2017
6,370
5,871
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
West Adelaide/ Team BARTY!
Ozzie and
Also underachieving during the Craig days as well. 2005 was such a darn good team and then Roo lost his temper, got suspended and cost his team dearly that year.
The Crows did not lose the 2017 GF because Roo was suspended in 2005 (even as big and costly a blunder that was by him), nor because of the Tippett fiasco. They were big mistakes with severe consequences at the time, but they need to be left back where they belong.
The current mess is predominantly post-2017 and the mistakes made in response to the 2017 GF loss. If the Club's Admin. or players were to lay blame on pre-2017 events, it would absolve them from responsibility for what they have done most recently.
That Camp was 2018.
Hass and Burton stuffed up their fitness in 2018 and after.
Check this out about Ben Hart:
" He returns to West Lakes as an assistant coach ahead of the 2018 season, where he will oversee the defensive group. "!!
Hart has wrecked our forward lines 2018 ==>.

Also, get this --- Godden (mids Coach 2018 onwards) has never played an AFL game, nor been associated with Coaching as an assistant with any AFL Club. Our mids group/setup/play is the worst in the League. Godden gotta go.
 

TubbsFarquhar

Hall of Famer
Jan 18, 2009
40,549
49,162
I Don't Know
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Chelsea, Sturt
Really 2002-2017 would actually look really good if they had just capitalised on their chances. Would have been a dominant 15 years.
2002 - Top 4
2003 - missed top 4 by 1 win

2004 - sh*t
2005 - Minor premier
2006 - Top 2

2007 - Top 8
2008 - Missed top 4 by 0.9% (Last match of the season St Kilda won 147 to Essendon 39 for that to happen)
2009 - 5th by a win and %
2010 - sh*t
2011 - sh*t
2012 - Top 2
2013 - sh*t
2014 - sh*t
2015 - Top 8, won a final after death of coach
2016 - Missed top 4 by 4.8% - blew last game at home to lose top 4 after being 2nd with 1 game to go
2017 - GF
2005-06, 2012 and 2016-17 were our biggest missed opportunities. At least one, if not two, of those seasons should've been flags, but we cocked it up one way or another. Roo getting suspended and Craig letting Harvey run wild in '05, coughing up a 4 goal half-time lead in the prelim in '06, blowing it against the Swans in '12, shitting the bed against the Eagles in '16 and denying us both a home QF and top 4, then, of course, the GF.
2002, even if we made the GF, I don't think we quite had it in us to beat Brisbane. 2008, as ******* annoying as that last game was, we were never in it. It was Geelong and the Hawks, gap, Bulldogs, another gap, and then us, Saints, North, Pies and the Swans.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Top Bottom