List Mgmt. How do we compare to the GF teams

[Gone Critical]

I think we are still well off the pace of the top sides. Our basic issue is we need more class in our list. We lack top end talent. Look at the Tigers for instance they have the standout player of the comp in Martin, a goal kicking mid machine, the best KPB in the game and a high end mega consistent KPF in Riewoldt who has been able to never miss games and be able to be essentially marked down as a fifty goal a year forward for many seasons now. We just don't have any talent on the list like that currently. The Crows likewise have forward line talent we can only dream of and very few weaknesses.

If our talent comes on we will see improvements and can contend for the 8 but that's true of most lists in our position. The other thing that gives the appearance to teams like us not being that far off is I think the competition is in a bit of a hiatus now in terms of having really great sides and it's a great time to win a flag. I don't think the Dogs or Tigers are likely to go down as great flag sides. They have grasped a chance that presented. I think as the next few seasons go a couple or 3 teams will emerge form the pack to mark themselves as the next powerful group of teams so the differential between the best and the rest likely widens again. We need to keep working but at this point I see us as a bottom half club in terms of talent and it will take a fair bit to turn that around in recruitment and development.

 

[Seedsfan]

Stopped reading as soon as I saw the OP have Moore at CHB. As he rightly states we are desperate for a key forward so you move one of the best young key forwards in the game to the backline?

 

[Scodog10]

The Grand Final teams were 25 and 26 yrs, and 104 and 109 gms

Our Round 23 team was 23 yrs 11mths and 71 gms

That's a minimum 12 months off the pace and more likely 2 years when you start replacing Dunn and Goldy with MClarty and Scharenberg permanently.

Structurally going forward Grundy Moore and McClarty could do with some help so 2 young quality keys would be ideal.

But the real needs are speed and disposal, if they can't kick and they aren't quick PASS.

So 2 years if everything goes right.

Apples and oranges.

Richmond had their best 22 out there yesterday and Adelaide we're missing only McGovern. Unfortunately our club still doesn't know what ours looks like after five years of tinkering. Fortunately the word coming out is that we'll remain relatively quiet come trade time and that's exactly what our club needs because the foundation is there.

That round 22 match we were missing Pendles, Fasolo, Reid, JDG, Greenwood and Wells. Replace Brown, Broomhead, Thomas, Daicos, Kirby and Aish with the former 6 and our age/ experience profile falls in line with Adelaide and Richmond's. Our best group is capable of competing, but what we need is for the FD to lift their game (coaching, development and HP) and that middle band below our established stars to have career years.

Richmond had half their best 22 with career years in Hoult, Lambert, Vlastuin, Astbury, Grimes, Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Nankervis, Grigg and Townsend. Other than the key 3 all the others are role players. This absolute garbage that we lack the talent to have an impact is just lazy. Like Richmond in 2016 we're capable of so much more than the ladder position indicates we just need our FD to find the key to unlocking our inner quality.

 

[TKiL]

Player wise we stack up reasonably well pound for pound, but we're so far off the pace in terms of coaching, development, list management and high performance it's just incomparable over the course of a 22 week H&A season currently........
"Having the CEO and president on the team" needs to end plus a new list manager will add value, IMO.......

If the highlighted text is proven to be the case, it shows how far off the mark we are in terms of proper management and reporting structures.

 

[TKiL]

The Grand Final teams were 25 and 26 yrs, and 104 and 109 gms
Our Round 23 team was 23 yrs 11mths and 71 gms

Sidey, somebody - help please - what is gms?

 

[DinoSoar]

Sidey, somebody - help please - what is gms?

Games

 

[TKiL]

Games

thanks - wondering if it was "grams" and that was why we couldn't make tackles stick - silly me!

 

[westozpie]

There's a pretty simple answer to this I reckon. We're not within a bulls roar of being a top 4 team. It's a complete fantasy to compare us to teams of that skill, when most of this year we couldn't retain possesion for more than three kicks in a row.

We are weak in key position areas, lack quality disposal skills, don't play for each other, and we're coached by an egotistical perfectionist who will only accept clones of himself. I hope I'm wrong, but I expect us to fishish between 8 and 11 next year, with little pospect of being a serious finals force.

As a club, we've got a long, long way to go.

Wow, so many problems you point out, complete nut job of a club coached by a nut job...You couldn't enlighten us why then were we a chance to win so many games this year only to lose by small margins, why at times we were able to massively dominate teams, why our record against the final four teams in the finals is excellent. Don't worry you will get your wish and be proven wrong next year, you are in the minority if you don't think we are that far off, one or two good players will make a big difference..worked with Richmond. Hopefully you will enjoy Collingwood going well.

 

[Scodog10]

Food for thought. From the 22 that is now the 2017 premiers 18 took the field in round 2 the changes were:

Out: Griffith, Short, Conca and Lennon
In: Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh

Hand on heart did a single person walk away from round 2 saying jeez if they get Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh into this group they can go all the way?? I mean seriously we are closer than so many give credit for and it wasn't talent that made up the gap I'll give you the tip!

 

[westozpie]

Food for thought. From the 22 that is now the 2017 premiers 18 took the field in round 2 the changes were:

Out: Griffith, Short, Conca and Lennon
In: Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh

Hand on heart did a single person walk away from round 2 saying jeez if they get Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh into this group they can go all the way?? I mean seriously we are closer than so many give credit for and it wasn't talent that made up the gap I'll give you the tip!

Spot on Sco, in an unbelievably even comp teams can improve dramatically with some minor game/personnel changes. We have some real skillful talent in our team and could certainly move up the ladder

 

[Quicky]

Food for thought. From the 22 that is now the 2017 premiers 18 took the field in round 2 the changes were:

Out: Griffith, Short, Conca and Lennon
In: Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh

Hand on heart did a single person walk away from round 2 saying jeez if they get Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh into this group they can go all the way?? I mean seriously we are closer than so many give credit for and it wasn't talent that made up the gap I'll give you the tip!

System and a functioning FD? I thought looking at the Richmond 22 that we were a comparably talented team across the 22. But there is a difference in a few areas. Martin is the best player in the comp. And Reiwoldt and Rance provide two a-class bookends in their prime. We lack the latter in particular. Lynch would be huge for us if we could also improve FD at the same time.

 

[NT.Thunder]

System and a functioning FD? I thought looking at the Richmond 22 that we were a comparably talented team across the 22. But there is a difference in a few areas. Martin is the best player in the comp. And Reiwoldt and Rance provide two a-class bookends in their prime. We lack the latter in particular. Lynch would be huge for us if we could also improve FD at the same time.

Yeah totally agree, especially this season when really there were only 2 consistently dominate players in Dusty and Danger, there was no one that came remotely close to these two this season. Both had huge parts in seeing their sides make it as far as they did, Cats would've been lucky to make the 8 without Danger and Dusty won a half dozen games or more alone for Tigers this season.

 

[barrackers]

Food for thought. From the 22 that is now the 2017 premiers 18 took the field in round 2 the changes were:

Out: Griffith, Short, Conca and Lennon
In: Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh

Hand on heart did a single person walk away from round 2 saying jeez if they get Graham, Townsend, Broad and McIntosh into this group they can go all the way?? I mean seriously we are closer than so many give credit for and it wasn't talent that made up the gap I'll give you the tip!

I'm a bit each way on this, with injuries to 2-3 key players Richmond struggles to make the eight this season, but in saying that their off field performances were certainly a strength.

Richmond had a brilliant run with injury this year and the continuity that they were able to build by having so many play the bulk of matches undoubtably helped their success. While some injuries (impact) are just plain unlucky the lack of soft tissue injuries shows they done a right. Having a consistent senior group coupled with coaching installed belief enabled them to build confidence in each other including learning their roles individually and as a group. As such it's no surprise a lot of tigers had career best years. Ticks also have to be awarded for their defensive structures, which were second to none at both AFL and VFL levels and manic pressure across the board.

Tigers playing 15 or more H&A games in 2017. Houli was suspended for 4 matches, Caddy was dropped in R9 and Short from R18 onwards.

22 - Grimes, Martin, B Ellis, Grigg, Cotchin, Astbury, Rioi, Rance, Castagna
21 - Lambert, Nakervis, McIntosh
20 - Riewoldt, Butler
19 - Caddy, Prestia
18 - Houli
17 - Edwards
16 - Short
15 -​

 

[Scodog10]

System and a functioning FD? I thought looking at the Richmond 22 that we were a comparably talented team across the 22. But there is a difference in a few areas. Martin is the best player in the comp. And Reiwoldt and Rance provide two a-class bookends in their prime. We lack the latter in particular. Lynch would be huge for us if we could also improve FD at the same time.

I think there's guys on our list that can be upper echelon difference makers through the middle of the ground and the one that stands out to me is JDG. That match v West Coast was Martinesque, but as I said it's up to the FD to unlock the key and have him and others step up with career years. Treloar is another if he can bring bring that burst running from the stoppage as consistently as Martin has brought his best in 2017 it adds a different dynamic.

Reiwoldt was a spare parts player in the second half of the season when they really started to get going and their forward group is very similar to ours in 2010 which was effective due to the sum of its parts not due to absolute star power.

The Rance style general though is the one. From my perspective the Bulldogs didn't need a Rance standard player to form a very effective back 6. Our one wood is the midfield and in order to have our defensive group somewhere near as effective as Richmond's we need our mids to be on top and the pressure to be strong. Adding a linebreaker is probably the missing link in that area of the ground, but it isn't an indication of talent holding us back because ours was injured in 2017.

FWIW in 2009 entering 2010 did we have the bookends entering their prime? We had Cloke and a the rest stood up with career years to that point. We all remember Sheedy's claim we had no stars in 09...

 

[Sidebysidey]

thanks - wondering if it was "grams" and that was why we couldn't make tackles stick - silly me!

Essendon board.

 

[pablo disco bar]

Im so jealous of Richmond

 

[TKiL]

Essendon board.

Are you banishing me there? should I just read it? other?

 

[Sidebysidey]

Are you banishing me there? should I just read it? other?

No no, just thought they could help you out with the grams.

 

[DuckToaster]

No no, just thought they could help you out with the grams.

That's more of a west coast speciality.

 

[TKiL]

No no, just thought they could help you out with the grams.

My brain slowed down when Richmond won

 

[Sidebysidey]

That's more of a west coast speciality.

Of course, where's my head today?

 

[jackcass]

If we give up Bucks zone crap game plan and play with instinct we will do well next year

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[jackcass]

I think we are still well off the pace of the top sides. Our basic issue is we need more class in our list. We lack top end talent. Look at the Tigers for instance they have the standout player of the comp in Martin, a goal kicking mid machine, the best KPB in the game and a high end mega consistent KPF in Riewoldt who has been able to never miss games and be able to be essentially marked down as a fifty goal a year forward for many seasons now. We just don't have any talent on the list like that currently. The Crows likewise have forward line talent we can only dream of and very few weaknesses.

If our talent comes on we will see improvements and can contend for the 8 but that's true of most lists in our position. The other thing that gives the appearance to teams like us not being that far off is I think the competition is in a bit of a hiatus now in terms of having really great sides and it's a great time to win a flag. I don't think the Dogs or Tigers are likely to go down as great flag sides. They have grasped a chance that presented. I think as the next few seasons go a couple or 3 teams will emerge form the pack to mark themselves as the next powerful group of teams so the differential between the best and the rest likely widens again. We need to keep working but at this point I see us as a bottom half club in terms of talent and it will take a fair bit to turn that around in recruitment and development.

I think we'll see a continued closing of the gap between the best and worst. The draft, salary cap, FD tax and diluted talent pool due to the expansion in team numbers make it inevitable. GWS the outrider due to the talent they have on their list. They struggled with injuries this year but 2018 and beyond looks their time.

 

[TW Sherrin]

I have been looking at the GF teams, and wondering how we compare with them. How far away are we from getting to the heights of a GF with our list?

So, i have lined up the Tigers & Crows teams, and found they have named a similar team in regards to player sizes in various positions.

I compared our team that we mostly played this year, and found our balance was different, particularly in our backline. We have gone for the Bulldogs template, where we play 5 players of similar height - about 190cm (from Howe, Schaz, Langdon, Dunne Goldy & Maynard). It is no wonder we get creamed by the mosquito fleet of other teams, and get outmarked by the taller players there too. We have gone middle-ground, and we lose out every time because we are too big and slower for the quicker smalls, yet undersized for the taller players.

As we know, our forward line has issues, but i don't believe we are far off. We need a KPF (Lynch???), and another small (Perhaps one of Kirby/Daicos/Brown can fill this hole, and maybe also fill the hole if Faz decides to go home).

Injuries to Wells, Varcoe, Faz, Elliott, and even Reid have contributed to a poorer season than expected, but if we have a good run with this, and we can find a KPF, another crumbing forward, and see improvement in some players, we compare well with the GF teams of this year.

Below i have listed the GF teams as selected, and then added what i think our best team with similar sized players is across all positions. Not all will agree, but i don't think we are that far away. The glass is half full IMO.
View attachment 422304

way too much time on your hands.

TBH I thought our 2016 side was better than the dogs.

Richmond is a little different. They are better but not significantly. They have the best defender and best mid in the comp. I also think if Cotchin continues on from his outstanding finals performances he will be a better captain than Pendles. I never thought I would say that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Apples and oranges.

Richmond had their best 22 out there yesterday and Adelaide we're missing only McGovern. Unfortunately our club still doesn't know what ours looks like after five years of tinkering. Fortunately the word coming out is that we'll remain relatively quiet come trade time and that's exactly what our club needs because the foundation is there.

That round 22 match we were missing Pendles, Fasolo, Reid, JDG, Greenwood and Wells. Replace Brown, Broomhead, Thomas, Daicos, Kirby and Aish with the former 6 and our age/ experience profile falls in line with Adelaide and Richmond's. Our best group is capable of competing, but what we need is for the FD to lift their game (coaching, development and HP) and that middle band below our established stars to have career years.

Richmond had half their best 22 with career years in Hoult, Lambert, Vlastuin, Astbury, Grimes, Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Nankervis, Grigg and Townsend. Other than the key 3 all the others are role players. This absolute garbage that we lack the talent to have an impact is just lazy. Like Richmond in 2016 we're capable of so much more than the ladder position indicates we just need our FD to find the key to unlocking our inner quality.

Exactly this, you're all probably sick of me banging on about development but I cannot stress enough the importance! Does anyone think Richmond would be where they are without good development?

TBH sometimes I think people have a one dimensional thought and think any given player has an amount of talent and that's it full stop. It doesn't work that way, why did Richmond have SFA injuries ? Through a good fitness department developing and managing their training loads; individually if required.

Unless you've been living under a rock you'd notice as Scodog says there's been massive improvement in their 2nd and 3rd tier players - massive! would any of you picked Houli in the norm smith conversation half way through the season? I know I didn't but there you go the FD not just Dimma have developed well.

Sure you could argue the Caddy and Prestia inclusions but to say they have gone backwards or not improved is folly.

Think back to 02 and 03 the bulk of that side or at least half were a spoon side from 99, MM didn't do it all on his own he surrounded himself with good help and listened to them and as a result good development followed and then the results.

I think we all get blinded to the fact that 99.9% of AFL listed players are absolute guns! in any other comp but we're used to watching the top level and label the not best as "spuds" etc but it's been proven over the decades that good teaching (coaching / development) and for the "student" to learn then that's when you see players like Houli almost pull off a norm smith