Discussion How do we rate St Kilda's 2005 team v 2009 team

Righto - some discussion kicked off last night on which is the better team 2005 (Plugger) v everyone else 2009. Are there others besides Plugger who rate the 2005 side over the 2009 team? Which team is better??

We seem to be drifting off in the vicious circle of discussing politics which does not have nuance, think it would be good to bring it back to footy even if it is from the past.

Took me a while to find the team lists (might have had one or two many glasses of Jameson whisky last night but here they are below:

2005:

B Baker Penny Hudghton
HB Jones Maguire Voss
C X.Clarke Ball Goddard
HF Hamill Riewoldt Dal Santo
F Milne Gehrig Guerra
Foll: Koschitzke, Hayes, Harvey
Inter: Powell, Thompson, Blake, Fiora

ARRIVALS Cain Ackland, James Gwilt, Mark McGough, Andrew McQualter (all 2004 National Draft), Aaron Fiora (traded, from Richmond), Dylan Pfitzner, Nick Stone (from rookie list)

DEPARTURES Heath Black (traded, to Fremantle), Craig Callaghan (retired), Josh Houlihan, Trent Knobel, Brett Moyle, Daniel Wulf (all delisted).


2009: (Grand Final Team):

ST. KILDA

B: Blake Dawson Baker
HB: Goddard Fisher Gilbert
C: Ray Hayes Dal Santo
HF: McQualter Koschitzke Jones
F: Milne Riewoldt Gram
Foll: King Montagna Schneider
I/C: Ball Raphael Clarke Dempster Gardiner
Emg: Armitage Geary Gwilt
 
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I think in hindsight 2005 looks great on paper but rarely did we have the whole side available. Fisher, Dal, Goddard, Blake, Kosi all came on to be more than just good players after 2005.

To me the elite from 2005 were Harvey and GTrain. The next tier were Max, Rooey, Jones, Hayes, Thompson, Ball etc. 2005 we had some perpetually injured guys like Penny, X-Man, Ball and Hammill which didn't help.

We were just unlucky that the two eras didn't overlap a bit better.
 
If we're talking about the teams and who they came up against if we had "perfect world" situations, it's 2005 all the way, as if we had todays administration, or the one in '09 driving professionalism instead of just Aaron, and a pres not on coke and going on benders or Nettles wondering what a document is and spending 5 weeks on changing a calendar date. Then they have less opposition and far greater upside to grab multiple flags whereas '09 shot itself in the foot and wondered by they were hobbled by comparison.

It's funny in a way, if '05 had more emphasis on doign what '09 did and curtailing the score against, neutering the flair a bit, we'd have ultimately had much less soft tissue issues and slightly more durable players. conversely if '09 showed a bit more flair and were less restrictive upon themselves, we might have kicked over 10 goals to win some matches that mattered.
 

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The speed at which that early-mid 2000s team was assembled is brilliant. I think Gwilt was in the finals team by the end of the year, I'd swap him in for Fiora. Pound for pound 2005 had more talent, crueled by injuries.
 
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I think in hindsight 2005 looks great on paper but rarely did we have the whole side available. Fisher, Dal, Goddard, Blake, Kosi all came on to be more than just good players after 2005.

To me the elite from 2005 were Harvey and GTrain. The next tier were Max, Rooey, Jones, Hayes, Thompson, Ball etc. 2005 we had some perpetually injured guys like Penny, X-Man, Ball and Hammill which didn't help.

We were just unlucky that the two eras didn't overlap a bit better.
Luke Ball made all Australian in 2005 with Dal Santo & Lenny.
Riewoldt, Aussie and G-Train were 2004.
Think your memory is a bit off.
 

D2D3

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I think in hindsight 2005 looks great on paper but rarely did we have the whole side available. Fisher, Dal, Goddard, Blake, Kosi all came on to be more than just good players after 2005.

To me the elite from 2005 were Harvey and GTrain. The next tier were Max, Rooey, Jones, Hayes, Thompson, Ball etc. 2005 we had some perpetually injured guys like Penny, X-Man, Ball and Hammill which didn't help.

We were just unlucky that the two eras didn't overlap a bit better.

Reckon Dal, Rooey, Lenny and maybe Ball (I think this was his good year) were already elite in 2005 as well
 
That 2005 team really does look rediculusly good on paper.

Yep - Ball, Goddard, Hayes, Harvey and Dal Santo rotating through the middle and a bloke called Nick at CHF along with the scary but effective G Train up forward. That is talent
 

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I definitely think that 05 side had a chance that year.
You can say "on paper" the names and the careers they had were better.
But that's a romantic view.

Realistically of the 9 or so players overlapping, all were better players in 09.
Yes Lenny and Dal were great but the peak of their powers was 09/10.​
Goddard and Roo too of course.​
Milne.​
Whereas Harvs still a gun in 05 was past his elite best.​
Hammil and Aussie were about cooked.​
Of course the G train was on fire.​
Gilbert, gram, shneider, Dawson. Not as attractive names on paper, but geez they were good in 09/10.​
It's 09 for sure and so unlucky to come up against the father/son juiced cats with a chip on their shoulders.​
Why couldn't we get a hobbled Sydney or a bed wetting Freo/WC/gws/adel!​
 

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Reckon if you look at purely "on paper" teams 2005 beats 2009. Far fewer GOPs in that team. 2009 far more battle hardened though.

2005 wins with extra class.

Pluggs was right imo.
 
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I definitely think that 05 side had a chance that year.
You can say "on paper" the names and the careers they had were better.
But that's a romantic view.

Realistically of the 9 or so players overlapping, all were better players in 09.
Yes Lenny and Dal were great but the peak of their powers was 09/10.​
Goddard and Roo too of course.​
Milne.​

Whereas Harvs still a gun in 05 was past his elite best.​
Hammil and Aussie were about cooked.​
Of course the G train was on fire.​

Gilbert, gram, shneider, Dawson. Not as attractive names on paper, but geez they were good in 09/10.​

It's 09 for sure and so unlucky to come up against the father/son juiced cats with a chip on their shoulders.​
Why couldn't we get a hobbled Sydney or a bed wetting Freo/WC/gws/adel!​

Good post......the lists did not quite come together, there was a feeling of inevitability in 09, but as you say the father / son juiced Cats nabbed it. Gram etc were great at that time, they had confidence of having great players around them and their talent developed. Would hope Battle at this stage would have that opportunity!

Part of being a Saints supporter is reflecting on this, almost a feeling of melancholy and at times damn frustration. Now it is defiance, especially against some of the righteous 'upper echeleon' clubs supporters of Carlton, Geelong, Collingwood, Hawthorn and now the Tigers.
 
I definitely think that 05 side had a chance that year.
You can say "on paper" the names and the careers they had were better.
But that's a romantic view.

Realistically of the 9 or so players overlapping, all were better players in 09.
Yes Lenny and Dal were great but the peak of their powers was 09/10.​
Goddard and Roo too of course.​
Milne.​

Whereas Harvs still a gun in 05 was past his elite best.​
Hammil and Aussie were about cooked.​
Of course the G train was on fire.​

Gilbert, gram, shneider, Dawson. Not as attractive names on paper, but geez they were good in 09/10.​

It's 09 for sure and so unlucky to come up against the father/son juiced cats with a chip on their shoulders.​
Why couldn't we get a hobbled Sydney or a bed wetting Freo/WC/gws/adel!​



Yeah watching that game the other night, Fisher and Gilbert's rebound and intercepting were still current. The were before their time and Gram was a gun at his best. What we'd love Savage to be. Some of our weak links would have been in our current bests.
 
Serious question - Is 2009 Dempster playing in the backline (where he should be) or as a defensive forward (where Lyon wasted him)?

I think if they played, even with their respective coaches and admins, that 2005 would win. Just way too much class and X Factor.

G Train would maul Dawson and if Clarke or Gilbert tried to drop in the hole he would bury them.

* that 04-05 team was fun to watch...
 

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Looking at the lineups is deceptive, because you look at 05 and think it's got all the guns of 09 plus Harvey, Gehrig, Aussie Jones, Hammill, Hughton so it must be better.

But with the exception of Ball, every player who appears in both (Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal, Joey, Goddard, Milne, Kosi, Baker, Blake) were better in 2009. Then add on Fisher and Gram who were guns, Schneider very good in 09.

You also look at the 09 backline and see whipping boys like Dawson, Gilbert, Clarke but forget that that backline was the best performed of all time (possibly still is?) and Gilbert was a gun that year.

In conclusion 05 looks stacked but with context, it is 09 fairly comfortably. A better question for me would be 05 vs 97.
 
Looking at the lineups is deceptive, because you look at 05 and think it's got all the guns of 09 plus Harvey, Gehrig, Aussie Jones, Hammill, Hughton so it must be better.

But with the exception of Ball, every player who appears in both (Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal, Joey, Goddard, Milne, Kosi, Baker, Blake) were better in 2009. Then add on Fisher and Gram who were guns, Schneider very good in 09.

You also look at the 09 backline and see whipping boys like Dawson, Gilbert, Clarke but forget that that backline was the best performed of all time (possibly still is?) and Gilbert was a gun that year.

In conclusion 05 looks stacked but with context, it is 09 fairly comfortably. A better question for me would be 05 vs 97.

I would argue that 04-05 Roo was better than 09-10 Roo. Old Roo was tougher and better equipped as the #1 guy, but 04 Roo was the best player in an absolutely stacked AFL comp at the time.
 

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I would argue that 04-05 Roo was better than 09-10 Roo. Old Roo was tougher and better equipped as the #1 guy, but 04 Roo was the best player in an absolutely stacked AFL comp at the time.
2004 I'd probably agree, although imo Roo had a strong argument for MVP in 2009 (as good as Ablett was). If we're talking 2005 specifically though he got injured famously and didn't quite reach the same heights as 05, and in fact it wasn't til 09 he got back to his very best.
 

theprospect

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We were a much, much better side in '09 but just unfortunately came up against one of the most dominant sides the game has seen in their prime. I feel like '05 was a hugely wasted opportunity though, we should not have lost that prelim to Sydney.

2004 - Weren't expected to beat Port but came so close
2005 - Should have won the prelim...GF against the Eagles, who knows?
2008 - Never beating Hawthorn
2009 - *sigh*
2010 - Why am I doing this...

Really should have won 1 or 2 flags in that 6-7 year patch. Rob Harvey, Riewoldt, Hayes, so many others would have been so deserving of just one.
 
We were a much, much better side in '09 but just unfortunately came up against one of the most dominant sides the game has seen in their prime. I feel like '05 was a hugely wasted opportunity though, we should not have lost that prelim to Sydney.

2004 - Weren't expected to beat Port but came so close
2005 - Should have won the prelim...GF against the Eagles, who knows?
2008 - Never beating Hawthorn
2009 - *sigh*
2010 - Why am I doing this...

Really should have won 1 or 2 flags in that 6-7 year patch. Rob Harvey, Riewoldt, Hayes, so many others would have been so deserving of just one.

Yep good summary, you do get to the point of wondering 'why am I doing this' when looking back on those times. Remember that period so well, I still have a burning passion watching the Saints now. The feeling now is one of expectation / hope for the team to get it together (and waiting for the midfield to click) as opposed to that time of expectation to win it all.

2009 is a sigh.....one of the ones that got away

Harvey, Riewoldt and Hayes all deserved a flag this is what we live with.
 
We were a much, much better side in '09 but just unfortunately came up against one of the most dominant sides the game has seen in their prime. I feel like '05 was a hugely wasted opportunity though, we should not have lost that prelim to Sydney.

2004 - Weren't expected to beat Port but came so close
2005 - Should have won the prelim...GF against the Eagles, who knows?
2008 - Never beating Hawthorn
2009 - *sigh*
2010 - Why am I doing this...

Really should have won 1 or 2 flags in that 6-7 year patch. Rob Harvey, Riewoldt, Hayes, so many others would have been so deserving of just one.

We choked against Port. I know Brisbane got us a couple of weeks earlier but they were beaten up and tired in the GF. Would our young group have gone after them the same way Port did? I think we could have got up.

2005 was ours for the taking after we beat the Crows. Massive missed chance here.

2008 - We wouldn't have beaten the Cats I dont think. The Hawks got through on the back of one of the all time great coaching displays and, as much as I respect Lyon, I dont think we get there.

2009 - Had to win this. I've watched the GF twice and both times I look at the mistakes, I look at Geelong just piling on some irresistible passages, I look at Ball sitting there while Hayes gets tagged out of the game... *!

2010 - Pies s**t the bed and we just couldn't quite finish off. We shouldn't have been as close as we were but those last few minutes... I keep screaming at my TV for someone to jump up and just handball it through for a ******* point. So many tackles and smothers. This one hurts more than 2009 TBH because it really felt like our last chance.

2010 part 2 - Never in it. We went in with all the same matchups and structure form game 1 and this time the Pies didn't waste it. Tried some moves after half time but we needed to play perfectly and didn't. McEvoy wasn't ready to take on the #1 role. Kosi should have played as the full time ruck, swing Goddard/Gilbert forward to partner Roo and play Armo/Steven.

*, why do we do this haha
 
We choked against Port. I know Brisbane got us a couple of weeks earlier but they were beaten up and tired in the GF. Would our young group have gone after them the same way Port did? I think we could have got up.

2005 was ours for the taking after we beat the Crows. Massive missed chance here.

2008 - We wouldn't have beaten the Cats I dont think. The Hawks got through on the back of one of the all time great coaching displays and, as much as I respect Lyon, I dont think we get there.

2009 - Had to win this. I've watched the GF twice and both times I look at the mistakes, I look at Geelong just piling on some irresistible passages, I look at Ball sitting there while Hayes gets tagged out of the game... fu**!

2010 - Pies s**t the bed and we just couldn't quite finish off. We shouldn't have been as close as we were but those last few minutes... I keep screaming at my TV for someone to jump up and just handball it through for a ******* point. So many tackles and smothers. This one hurts more than 2009 TBH because it really felt like our last chance.

2010 part 2 - Never in it. We went in with all the same matchups and structure form game 1 and this time the Pies didn't waste it. Tried some moves after half time but we needed to play perfectly and didn't. McEvoy wasn't ready to take on the #1 role. Kosi should have played as the full time ruck, swing Goddard/Gilbert forward to partner Roo and play Armo/Steven.

fu**, why do we do this haha

Yep, ask myself the same question. Does make more defiant and have respect for the Saints faithfull. Also explains the frustration with recent lists hoping to evolve.

I need to stop biting when other clubs posters have cheap pot shots and have faith in the club.

No doubt it does the head in at times.

Agree - we should have taken our chances in 05 and 09, it is what it is..
 

D2D3

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We choked against Port. I know Brisbane got us a couple of weeks earlier but they were beaten up and tired in the GF. Would our young group have gone after them the same way Port did? I think we could have got up.

2005 was ours for the taking after we beat the Crows. Massive missed chance here.

2008 - We wouldn't have beaten the Cats I dont think. The Hawks got through on the back of one of the all time great coaching displays and, as much as I respect Lyon, I dont think we get there.

2009 - Had to win this. I've watched the GF twice and both times I look at the mistakes, I look at Geelong just piling on some irresistible passages, I look at Ball sitting there while Hayes gets tagged out of the game... fu**!

2010 - Pies s**t the bed and we just couldn't quite finish off. We shouldn't have been as close as we were but those last few minutes... I keep screaming at my TV for someone to jump up and just handball it through for a ******* point. So many tackles and smothers. This one hurts more than 2009 TBH because it really felt like our last chance.

2010 part 2 - Never in it. We went in with all the same matchups and structure form game 1 and this time the Pies didn't waste it. Tried some moves after half time but we needed to play perfectly and didn't. McEvoy wasn't ready to take on the #1 role. Kosi should have played as the full time ruck, swing Goddard/Gilbert forward to partner Roo and play Armo/Steven.

fu**, why do we do this haha

Don’t know if I’m being slightly off here but imo in ‘09 and ‘10 we were absolutely manhandled in the coaches box.

First with the Ball and Hudghton debacles and then, as you said, having no answers for the pies in the replay. Or even in the first match for that matter, with Goddard and Lenny being the real leaders of the fight back.

On top of which I doubt he even seriously considered either Armitage or Steven either year (both of which were already better than Rob Eddy at least). Ross did some good work but his stubbornness bit us in the backside both years.
 
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