How does our list compare to Richmond's?

[jackcass]

No evidence the club/coaches did anything effective to address Cloke's technique - disgraceful really

Actually I think the constant tinkering with his technique undermined his confidence.

 

[Gone Critical]

No evidence the club/coaches did anything effective to address Cloke's technique - disgraceful really

You must have had your head in a hole. There was years of discussion and press releases about the different approaches being taken by Cloke , the club and the coaches to remedy his problems. Many things were tried. Nothing really worked

I am not sure anyone would really believe that wasnt something that was continually worked when it was such an obvious problem

 

[Gone Critical]

Actually I think the constant tinkering with his technique undermined his confidence.

Lot of truth in that . The problem was in his head more than his technique but thats probably much harder to fix.

 

[Gone Critical]

Overall, I prefer our list. Take out Martin and Rance and consider what is left?

Hoefully Adams/Treloar becomes our Martin and Howe becomes our Rance.

Love the optimism but that call is probably laced with a bit of bias. Reiwoldt would be my first answer to you. Has averaged 60 goals a season for 8 seasons now. In 2017 was perhaps more important that any other player in their plan and was the player who wrested control of the GF early

So thats a pretty good start to consider what's left. Consider the 60 goals he averaged since 2010 and compare that to the most any Collingwood player currently on the list has kicked in any year of their career is 35 goals. We dont have any forward who remotely approaches him.

There is a major difference between these lists which makes sense when Tigers just won a flag with 3 finals wins of 51, 36 and 58 points. I think their list is underestimated. They were very good in 2017 and we are a long way off that.

 

[TKiL]

You must have had your head in a hole. There was years of discussion and press releases about the different approaches being taken by Cloke , the club and the coaches to remedy his problems. Many things were tried. Nothing really worked

I am not sure anyone would really believe that wasnt something that was continually worked when it was such an obvious problem

My head was "not in a hole" - it was watching Cloke and despairing - if you read my post it used the word "effective"

 

[TKiL]

Lot of truth in that . The problem was in his head more than his technique but thats probably much harder to fix.

Whatever - the outcome was hard to watch at times

 

[jackcass]

My head was "not in a hole" - it was watching Cloke and despairing - if you read my post it used the word "effective"

Maybe that says more about Cloke than the coaching or what was attempted. 3 senior coaches and a bus load of assistants and specialist coaches across 12 years at 2 clubs and no one discovered the panacea to remedy his goal kicking.

 

[TKiL]

Maybe that says more about Cloke than the coaching or what was attempted. 3 senior coaches and a bus load of assistants and specialist coaches across 12 years at 2 clubs and no one discovered the panacea to remedy his goal kicking.

It's quite possible - but he was paid a truckload of $$$$ - assune he had some KPIs inc some to kick goals as a key fowward

 

[jackcass]

It's quite possible - but he was paid a truckload of $$$$ - assune he had some KPIs inc some to kick goals as a key fowward

And his failure to meet those KPI's was why the 5th year of his final contract salary would have dropped to $4-500k off the truckload he was being paid years 1-4.

 

[Gone Critical]

My head was "not in a hole" - it was watching Cloke and despairing - if you read my post it used the word "effective"

Isnt the more likely senario here the club, all the coaches, Malthouse, Buckley etc and Colke himself work hard to find a remedy. Some problems are not easily solved. I don't think "disgraceful" is a reasonable assessment. I am sure they tried all the known "effective" remedies and tried the novel ones as well, e g crowd noises in headphones etc.

 

[Gone Critical]

Whatever - the outcome was hard to watch at times

Agree, that it was.

It's quite possible - but he was paid a truckload of $$$$ - assune he had some KPIs inc some to kick goals as a key fowward

Also needs to be said he was one of the better KPFs of his time. He did some great stuff at Collingwood and had two top shelf seasons. It may be still a while before we get another KPF as good as him at Collingwood. Made the flaws with his kicking all the harder to watch but overall he was much more than that.

 

[Maggie5]

Love the optimism but that call is probably laced with a bit of bias. Reiwoldt would be my first answer to you. Has averaged 60 goals a season for 8 seasons now. In 2017 was perhaps more important that any other player in their plan and was the player who wrested control of the GF early

So thats a pretty good start to consider what's left. Consider the 60 goals he averaged since 2010 and compare that to the most any Collingwood player currently on the list has kicked in any year of their career is 35 goals. We dont have any forward who remotely approaches him.

There is a major difference between these lists which makes sense when Tigers just won a flag with 3 finals wins of 51, 36 and 58 points. I think their list is underestimated. They were very good in 2017 and we are a long way off that.

Have to disagree as if I were to include a third player that improved Richmond last year, it wouldn't be Riewoldt, it would be Nankervis.

 

[TKiL]

Lot of truth in that . The problem was in his head more than his technique but thats probably much harder to fix.

Two basic approaches - behavioral - focus on external, visible behaviours or go the invisible route and deal with what you imagine is inside someone's head.
In Cloke's case there were external, visible behaviours related to goalkicking that seemed to go unadressed - eg holding the ball, follow through etc.
It's way more effective to start with these than to try and get inside someone's head to change behaviour - for Travis it would have been best to keep it simple and deal with the visible actions /behaviours than deal with the invisible inside his head

 

[Gone Critical]

Two basic approaches - behavioral - focus on external, visible behaviours or go the invisible route and deal with what you imagine is inside someone's head.
In Cloke's case there were external, visible behaviours related to goalkicking that seemed to go unadressed - eg holding the ball, follow through etc.
It's way more effective to start with these than to try and get inside someone's head to change behaviour - for Travis it would have been best to keep it simple and deal with the visible actions /behaviours than deal with the invisible inside his head

I recall there was plenty of talk from the club and in the media about all those things. Especially keeping forward over the ball and avoiding leaning back on the closer shots. He definitely had plenty of attention and work on his technique.

 

[Gone Critical]

Have to disagree as if I were to include a third player that improved Richmond last year, it wouldn't be Riewoldt, it would be Nankervis.

He didnt improve Ricmond last year because he has been offering many many seasons of A grade KPF play already.

That's not what you asked though. You said you preferred Collingwoods list and if you took out Rance and Martin whats left? The obvious starting point to that answer is Reiwoldt and Cotchin but thats only the start.

 

[Maggie5]

He didnt improve Ricmond last year because he has been offering many many seasons of A grade KPF play already.

That's not what you asked though. You said you preferred Collingwoods list and if you took out Rance and Martin whats left? The obvious starting point to that answer is Reiwoldt and Cotchin but thats only the start.

I stand by my post.

 

[Gone Critical]

I stand by my post.

So you reckon we have better forwards than Reiwoldt running around at Collingwood?

 

[TKiL]

I recall there was plenty of talk from the club and in the media about all those things. Especially keeping forward over the ball and avoiding leaning back on the closer shots. He definitely had plenty of attention and work on his technique.

Forget the media - treat as external noise on this issue - I stand by my original post - there's not much evidence that whatever was done to address Cloke's set shot kicking technique during his time at Cwood was effective

 

[Maggie5]

So you reckon we have better forwards than Reiwoldt running around at Collingwood?

I stand by my original post. Martin and Rance are the most important players and IMO the key drivers of their success last year. They were missing a good ruck and got that in Nankervis which also helped as did the addition of Prestia who improved in the second half of the year.

I believe we have a more even team despite not having two 'star' players. Thus I believe we have a better 'team list'.

 

[Gone Critical]

Forget the media - treat as external noise on this issue - I stand by my original post - there's not much evidence that whatever was done to address Cloke's set shot kicking technique during his time at Cwood was effective

I agree nothing much was effective. There are plenty of problems in the world where a lot of best effort into finding a solution without success. This was one of those. Hence I would disagree with your assessment of this being a disgrace to the club and coaches.

 

[Gone Critical]

I stand by my original post. Martin and Rance are the most important players and IMO the key drivers of their success last year. They were missing a good ruck and got that in Nankervis which also helped as did the addition of Prestia who improved in the second half of the year.

I believe we have a more even team despite not having two 'star' players. Thus I believe we have a better 'team list'.

You may believe that but there is really no objective evidence to support your belief. They clearly have a major edge when it comes to top end class on their list. They have a strong best 22. They have played finals , bar 2016, for 5 seasons now and won the flag in a canter in 2017.

We have a good midfield, an average backline and a major deficiency up forward with very few proven goalkickers. We have missed finals for 4 seasons and are favoured to miss again in 2018. We have no major additions to the playing list of 2017 that would be expected to make a difference in 2018.

All the objective evidence puts us well behind Richmond.

 

[TKiL]

I agree nothing much was effective. There are plenty of problems in the world where a lot of best effort into finding a solution without success. This was one of those. Hence I would disagree with your assessment of this being a disgrace to the club and coaches.

Maybe my word choice was just a tiny fraction harsh. Consider though - Cloke on $700+ K pa and an assistant coach on $300? K pa. = nice gross earnings - not unreasonable for supporters to expect a better outcome than "nothing much effective" in such a key area as set shot kicking.

Fair to say general view is that our skills are below par in all areas. Fix the basics before having a complex convoluted game plan.

 

[Maggie5]

You may believe that but there is really no objective evidence to support your belief. They clearly have a major edge when it comes to top end class on their list. They have a strong best 22. They have played finals , bar 2016, for 5 seasons now and won the flag in a canter in 2017.

We have a good midfield, an average backline and a major deficiency up forward with very few proven goalkickers. We have missed finals for 4 seasons and are favoured to miss again in 2018. We have no major additions to the playing list of 2017 that would be expected to make a difference in 2018.

All the objective evidence puts us well behind Richmond.

Thread title asks, 'do we have a better list than Richmond', so not sure of the relevance of going back 5 seasons.

If we meet Richmond and if neither Martin and Rance are playing and if you take out who you believe is our top two, who do you think wins?

Since Swan left we don't have a Martin and if Reid wasn't so injury prone, he would have been equal to a Rance. I am hoping that Howe becomes our Rance.

In so far as our forward line, we have missed a fit Eliott enormously, so fingers crossed a fit Elliot, Wells, WHE, Moore? and Fasolo, things could change.

I look at our team and ask: who is their Sidebottom, Wells, Adams/Treloar (assuming one is our best, Pendlebury the other), Crisp (I really rate him), Maynard, Elliott, DeGoey, Grundy and a fit Reid for example.

 

[jackcass]

Maybe my word choice was just a tiny fraction harsh. Consider though - Cloke on $700+ K pa and an assistant coach on $300? K pa. = nice gross earnings - not unreasonable for supporters to expect a better outcome than "nothing much effective" in such a key area as set shot kicking.

Fair to say general view is that our skills are below par in all areas. Fix the basics before having a complexc convoluted game plan.

Frontal lobotomy likely the only thing they didn't try, and we all witnessed Mark Jackson after his so not recommended anymore.

 

[TKiL]

Frontal lobotomy likely the only thing they didn't try, and we all witnessed Mark Jackson after his so not recommended anymore.

Some people to whom I am quite close are of the view that a frontal lobotomy may cure my addiction to this site ..
Remember the old saying - "I'd rather a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy".