Politics How does the left get its political mojo back and win power?

[CM86]

Yeah diversity policies where we have gender quotas are good things are they?

And aboriginals demanding recognition in our constitution is a good thing for the unity of the nation going forward is it?

You are very easily sucked in to these “good” causes. Unfortunately the more nasty left wing people get a lot of suckers to join them because they appear to be virtuous.

So do you mean some kinds of diversity, and some kinds of feminism, and some Aboriginal causes?

You're starting to come across as far right. Where do you feel you sit on the political spectrum?

 

[Patrick Bullet]

Judging it based on the number of posters and moderators who hold left wing views.

When I talk left wing, I’m speaking more about the cultural left ie the people blindly pro climate change (you can still be pro climate change and be right, I’m talking the absolute extremists who want to use it as a means to overthrow capitalism), people who want to destroy the nuclear family, people all into the diversity and feminism crap, people pro aboriginal causes, people against Christianity etc etc.

Malcolm Turnbull’s views would be the prime example of the cultural left.

Re the labor party, their economic policy was highly left wing (high spending and high taxes). I can’t think of any policy of theirs that wasn’t left wing. Their most left wing policy is their quota of females in parliament.

The liberal party didn’t have too many left wing policies that come to mind that they took to the election. They get sucked into the cultural left’s sphere from time to time and give ground quite often. I think personally their climate change policy is done to appease the cultural left as the targets are far too outlandish for my liking considering the technology is not yet ready to take over from fossil fuels.

Now that I stop and think of it, I've never actually seen anyone say that they want to destroy the nuclear family. Can you point me to an example of this? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by it.

 

[Lenny153]

So do you mean some kinds of diversity, and some kinds of feminism, and some Aboriginal causes?

You're starting to come across as far right. Where do you feel you sit on the political spectrum?

What are you carrying on about? It’s very clear my original post is referring to the cultural left’s attempts to push ridiculous diversity policies on us in the form of identity politics quotas and symbolic aboriginal causes that appear virtuous without actually doing anything meaningful to help them improve their standard of living (and in fact causing more division).

My views are conservative. Conservatives are considered far right these days though apparently if we are to listen to the modern day brainwashed leftie snowflake.

 

[Lenny153]

Now that I stop and think of it, I've never actually seen anyone say that they want to destroy the nuclear family. Can you point me to an example of this? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by it.

Evolve before was trying to argue that the nuclear family has failed in order to support his arguments regarding the raising of children.

Anyone advocating for children to be raised without a mother and father are essentially arguing for the destruction of the nuclear family.

 

[CM86]

What are you carrying on about? It’s very clear my original post is referring to the cultural left’s attempts to push ridiculous diversity policies on us in the form of identity politics quotas and symbolic aboriginal causes that appear virtuous without actually doing anything meaningful to help them improve their standard of living (and in fact causing more division).

It really isn't clear.
I think you must have acknowledged that subconsciously by how you've cleared it up with this post.

You agree that there are a lot of important diversity and Aboriginal causes we still need to support and work towards, right?

Conservatives aren't all far right. And I'm not a brainwashed leftie snowflake.

 

[Patrick Bullet]

Judging it based on the number of posters and moderators who hold left wing views.

When I talk left wing, I’m speaking more about the cultural left ie the people blindly pro climate change (you can still be pro climate change and be right, I’m talking the absolute extremists who want to use it as a means to overthrow capitalism), people who want to destroy the nuclear family, people all into the diversity and feminism crap, people pro aboriginal causes, people against Christianity etc etc.

Malcolm Turnbull’s views would be the prime example of the cultural left.

Re the labor party, their economic policy was highly left wing (high spending and high taxes). I can’t think of any policy of theirs that wasn’t left wing. Their most left wing policy is their quota of females in parliament.

The liberal party didn’t have too many left wing policies that come to mind that they took to the election. They get sucked into the cultural left’s sphere from time to time and give ground quite often. I think personally their climate change policy is done to appease the cultural left as the targets are far too outlandish for my liking considering the technology is not yet ready to take over from fossil fuels.

With the overthrowing capitalism in the name of climate change thing, I have seen some examples of that here and there. By and large though, I think most people would view that as very very fringe left, not mainstream left. e.g. I doubt many of the lefties you would encounter on SRP would think it's wise to overthrow capitalism. Do you see much of it where you live/work?

 

[Lenny153]

It really isn't clear.
I think you must have acknowledged that subconsciously by how you've cleared it up with this post.

You agree that there are a lot of important diversity and Aboriginal causes we still need to support and work towards, right?

Conservatives aren't all far right. And I'm not a brainwashed leftie snowflake.

No I don’t agree that there are a lot of important diversity and aboriginal causes that we need to support and work towards, at least none that are currently being put forward.

We have gender equality already. Diversity policies in relation to gender only serve to disadvantage men and in fact tarnish the good females who earnt their positions on merit. I like to view Australians on a whole as fair people who aren’t racist. Therefore, there is no need for racial diversity policies either.

Re aboriginal causes, I fully support meaningful, substantive measures to help them improve their standard of living. I do not support the cultural left’s ridiculous crusades such as changing the date of Australia Day and changing the constitution.

The fact you think my conservative views are far right I believe shows how far left you are.

 

[Lenny153]

With the overthrowing capitalism in the name of climate change thing, I have seen some examples of that here and there. By and large though, I think most people would view that as very very fringe left, not mainstream left. e.g. I doubt many of the lefties you would encounter on SRP would think it's wise to overthrow capitalism. Do you see much of it where you live/work?

I’m not sure it’s as fringe as we would like to hope. I think a lot of people behind climate change with a passion are doing it because they want to use it as a tool to overthrow capitalism by destroying economies and essentially transferring the world’s wealth.

 

[CM86]

No I don’t agree that there are a lot of important diversity and aboriginal causes that we need to support and work towards, at least none that are currently being put forward.

We have gender equality already. Diversity policies in relation to gender only serve to disadvantage men and in fact tarnish the good females who earnt their positions on merit. I like to view Australians on a whole as fair people who aren’t racist. Therefore, there is no need for racial diversity policies either.

Re aboriginal causes, I fully support meaningful, substantive measures to help them improve their standard of living. I do not support the cultural left’s ridiculous crusades such as changing the date of Australia Day and changing the constitution.

The fact you think my conservative views are far right I believe shows how far left you are.

I didn't say your conservative views are far right.

I said you were starting to come across as far right, based on your post that you've since clarified quite substantially.

Do you believe I'm far left?


Also, I was wondering if you can think of any issues where we should support feminism against religion?

 

[Patrick Bullet]

Evolve before was trying to argue that the nuclear family has failed in order to support his arguments regarding the raising of children.

Anyone advocating for children to be raised without a mother and father are essentially arguing for the destruction of the nuclear family.

Ah I think it get it. To be honest I think the language being used is a little mischievous. "Destroying the nuclear family" sounds as though left wing people are out there actively looking for nuclear families and murdering those that they find. Or that people are out there actively campaigning against the nuclear family (e.g., "No more nukes!" "End the two parent two kid structure"). I don't think that you believe this is going on though.

In fact, I honestly doubt that many on the left could give two hoots about what the structures of families other than their own are. I do wonder a bit why anyone could care at all about other people's family structures. Surely, ain't nobody got time for that!?

 

[Lenny153]

I didn't say your conservative views are far right.

I said you were starting to come across as far right, based on your post that you've since clarified quite substantially.

Do you believe I'm far left?


Also, I was wondering if you can think of any issues where we should support feminism against religion?

I thought you were far left when there was a miscommunication re my diversity and aboriginal points which I have since clarified as there seemed to be some confusion.

I don’t know if you are far left to be honest. You definitely seem left leaning. I’d have to go through your post history to give an accurate answer to that.

I don’t understand your last question. Would it be better if you gave an example and I could answer based on that?

 

[Patrick Bullet]

I’m not sure it’s as fringe as we would like to hope. I think a lot of people behind climate change with a passion are doing it because they want to use it as a tool to overthrow capitalism by destroying economies and essentially transferring the world’s wealth.

May I ask why you think this?

It again doesn't match with my experience of people who talk about climate change, and I do talk to a lot of people about climate change!. Most of them talk about them wanting their kids to have an inhabitable world. I've not met anyone who has openly spoken about wealth redistribution as an end goal of battling climate change.

I'm wondering why our experiences are so different!

 

[Lenny153]

May I ask why you think this?

It again doesn't match with my experience of people who talk about climate change, and I do talk to a lot of people about climate change!. Most of them talk about them wanting their kids to have an inhabitable world. I've not met anyone who has openly spoken about wealth redistribution as an end goal of battling climate change.

I'm wondering why our experiences are so different!

When I say fringe, I mean less than 5%. Let’s take the greens for example. They are slightly larger than fringe (polling at around 10%). I believe the majority of greens people are so pro climate change as they would like nothing more to see capitalism overthrown. Climate change is the perfect tool for them for this.

 

[CM86]

I thought you were far left when there was a miscommunication re my diversity and aboriginal points which I have since clarified as there seemed to be some confusion.

I don’t know if you are far left to be honest. You definitely seem left leaning. I’d have to go through your post history to give an accurate answer to that.

I don’t understand your last question. Would it be better if you gave an example and I could answer based on that?

I'm definitely left leaning.
But I don't use self awareness as a catch cry, I don't want to destroy the nuclear family, and I don't support climate change in order to overthrow the world into a Marxist state.

I'm also male, and a feminist.
Do you think there is any reason for a man to support feminist issues currently?

 

[Lenny153]

I'm definitely left leaning.
But I don't use self awareness as a catch cry, I don't want to destroy the nuclear family, and I don't support climate change in order to overthrow the world into a Marxist state.

I'm also male, and a feminist.
Do you think there is any reason for a man to support feminist issues currently?

Re your question, not really, no.

I think feminism served a purpose in the past when women didn’t have equality (ie voting rights). I respect the females who fought for equality in that regard.

I have no time, however, for modern day feminism. It focuses on things like gender pay gap (a ridiculous concept that is debunked quite easily) and other superfluous issues which are not about equality but about obtaining beneficial outcomes for females at the expense of men. If there is one tangible area where females don’t have equality then I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t believe there are any.

This is in the western world, I am talking. In other areas of the world, there definitely needs work to be done to achieve equality for females (see Saudia Arabia where women have to walk behind men and other countries where genital mutilation takes place). I note that a lot of the modern day feminists don’t tackle these issues.

 

[CM86]

Re your question, not really, no.

I think feminism served a purpose in the past when women didn’t have equality (ie voting rights). I respect the females who fought for equality in that regard.

I have no time, however, for modern day feminism. It focuses on things like gender pay gap (a ridiculous concept that is debunked quite easily) and other superfluous issues which are not about equality but about obtaining beneficial outcomes for females at the expense of men. If there is one tangible area where females don’t have equality then I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t believe there are any.

This is in the western world, I am talking. In other areas of the world, there definitely needs work to be done to achieve equality for females (see Saudia Arabia where women have to walk behind men and other countries where genital mutilation takes place). I note that a lot of the modern day feminists don’t tackle these issues.

Well I was thinking about the Ardern/hijab conversation earlier.
Is it not a feminist issue against religion, to say women should have the right to wear what they want to wear?

Wouldn't you agree with and support that in the Western world?



As to your next point, how do you mean 'tackle these issues'?


Realistically, what can a single person in the Western world do to tackle genital mutilation in Saudi Arabia?
I see plenty of people actively trying to draw attention to it, petition the governments to do something. Some individuals have even traveled to these countries to try to help (it's an incredibly small part but the people they help notice).

Also, the vast majority of people in the Western world tend to agree with feminism in regards to those issues, so there isn't ever the same kind of discussion, or media beat up.

 

[Lenny153]

Well I was thinking about the Ardern/hijab conversation earlier.
Is it not a feminist issue against religion, to say women should have the right to wear what they want to wear?

Wouldn't you agree with and support that in the Western world?



As to your next point, how do you mean 'tackle these issues'?


Realistically, what can a single person in the Western world do to tackle genital mutilation in Saudi Arabia?
I see plenty of people actively trying to draw attention to it, petition the governments to do something. Some individuals have even traveled to these countries to try to help (it's an incredibly small part but the people they help notice).

Also, the vast majority of people in the Western world tend to agree with feminism in regards to those issues, so there isn't ever the same kind of discussion, or media beat up.

With the hijab, there have been enough personal accounts of muslim women for me to see that the garment is an object of oppression. I can’t see how it has any relation to feminism and I don’t believe any female would want to wear it. In other words, re adern, the fact that it is generally seen as an object of oppression means she was mistaken to wear it (even if there are a very small subset of women amongst the religion that want to wear it).

Tackle these issues I meant discuss and campaign like they do on other issues like the gender pay gap.

 

[CM86]

With the hijab, there have been enough personal accounts of muslim women for me to see that the garment is an object of oppression. I can’t see how it has any relation to feminism and I don’t believe any female would want to wear it.

If women are being oppressed and forced to wear something they don't want to. We'd want to support them and give them the right to be able to choose.
I consider that feminism, but I take it you don't like that term?

Tackle these issues I meant discuss and campaign like they do on other issues like the gender pay gap.

There isn't much point marching Western streets for it, is there? What is there to protest if almost everyone agrees with it?

These things are being campaigned for and fought for, it just doesn't get the media and social media presence because it's not outrageous, or divisional.
Generally most people agree with it. If anything you just get the odd article reminding people about it. But it doesn't sell papers or get clicks.

Whereas if you've got a man in a pink hat screaming about a woman's right to eat airplanes, that will be reported everywhere.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Just because you say it is a societal construct doesn’t mean it’s not a catch cry of the left like I originally said.

It's NOT a societal construct. Apparent "lack of self awareness" is used by all and sundry. It's not a left v right issue.

 

[Hoops]

Does the current Labor Party pass the pub test? Probably not.
Does the current Labor Party pass the inner city hipster cafe test? Resoundingly yes.

Perception is reality!
As I posted in another thread, I grew up a rusted on Labor voter, attended a rally for Gough, Bob and Jim Cairns at the local High School, they were rock stars.
Back then Labor was perceived as THE workers party, unions, fighting for fair wages and a real point of difference to the Liberals, much simpler then.
Now this is only my experience as someone who left school after form five, year eleven for the youngsters, and has worked ever since.
In the working persons circles Labor is perceived as being Green, not Red, Extinction Rebellion represents Labor, inner city councils getting involved in everything but what they are supposed to do, unrestricted immigration (this is not racism or xenophobia as immigration in itself is welcomed by most), militant unionism as well as being financially irresponsible and the biggie - weak on law and order, Victoria for example.
Now, Labor and the Left may feel they are none of these things but they are certainly perceived to be by many... as the election results confirm.

That's because the working class get their news from the Herald Sun, My dads the same, though would never vote Liberal.

 

[Hoops]

You dont have to be a God Botherer to believe there are only two genders, that illegal immigration is unacceptable, that Australia shouldnt become a republic etc etc.

The inner city luvvies continuously talk of things that are of ZERO interest to most people.

As if people in Frankston care less about Palestine, Transexual rights, legal aid for illegal immigrants, a new gay museum, policemen marching in a gay parade, Greta saving the world, indigenous round at the footy etc etc.

When this is pointed out they get called racist hick bogans (and the ALP wonders why it doesnt win).

And when it's pointed out that Labor dont campaign on any of these things then you asked why are they in bed with the Greens (even though Labor hate the Greens.)

 

[owen87]

And when it's pointed out that Labor dont campaign on any of these things then you asked why are they in bed with the Greens (even though Labor hate the Greens.)

I wonder why people think that

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

 

[Hoops]

I wonder why people think that

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

So Green voters are likely to preference Labor? colour me shocked

 

[Patrick Bullet]

I wonder why people think that

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Those greens votes have to go *somewhere* though don't they? Isnt the whole point of preferential voting that people get to say "If I can't have X, then I'd prefer Y, if not Y then Z (and so on)"? It would make sense to me that voters of a left wing party would prefer a centre left alternative over a centre right option.

I suspect you'd see much the same phenomena with respect to the right wing parties and the coalition (with ONP being the odd exception). Is it fair to say that the Liberals were 'in bed with' Corey Bernardi's old party or PUP?

If so, why do you think that it 'sticks' more to the ALP than the coalition? In other words, why is greens being in bed with the ALP seen as so much worse than PUP being in bed with the coalition?

 

[Patrick Bullet]

When I say fringe, I mean less than 5%. Let’s take the greens for example. They are slightly larger than fringe (polling at around 10%). I believe the majority of greens people are so pro climate change as they would like nothing more to see capitalism overthrown. Climate change is the perfect tool for them for this.

I'm again a bit surprised to hear this as it doesn't match my experiences. I do think that it's likely that you'll be able to find some closet socialists within the Greens. People who sit on the fringes are often highly motivated to participate in politics. Further, there have been documented attempts from the fringe right to infiltrate the LNP for example, so I'd be amazed if similar things weren't happening within the Greens by fringe leftists. But I'm still not seeing the overthrow of capitalism being discussed openly among the greens supporters that I know. Some of my colleagues participated in the XR protests and even they are capitalists. They just want something to be done to slow the CC process.

The other factor for me is that I know lots of scientists personally (i.e., the sorts of people who would study climate change). It's probably accurate to say that scientists are more left than right leaning, but none of the scientists I know of want to overthrow capitalism. In fact, if I asked, most of them would say that the threat of socialism scares the bejesus out of them as it would encroach on their rights and restrict their ability to keep doing the science that they love so much.

Overall, I honestly believe that the fringe you're talking about is an even smaller % than you estimate.