Politics How does the left get its political mojo back and win power?

Evolved1

Beancoin shill
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So kids are just a wank gone wrong? Weird argument.
My point was that a zygote is alive and human in much the same way that a sperm is, and should have no legal protections. If a 2000 year old religious text tells you different, then follow the tenets of your deity. Just don't expect others to do so.
 

Evolved1

Beancoin shill
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Irrelevant point. Policy is made at national level (unless you have the unfortunate experience of living in an EU country). You need to get China etc to act. Buffoons like Greta demanding that countries like Australia cut emissions to zero are just making fools of themselves. She should be in Tiananmen Square if she was actually serious. Of course she doesnt though.
What does Greta have to do with anything? Talk about irrelevant.
In a decentralised country with a smallish population. Yep, very amusing.

Australia has a couple of industries that it has best in world practices in. Farming and mining. But hey stuff that lets stuff them and go in to high tech where we have zero comparative advantage. Sure to work.
Singapore has a smaller population and they're an international technological hub. I've made my point and we see things differently because you lack vision imo.

That ship has sailed anyway. Our religious right leadership has us back in the dark ages.
 

medusala

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I've made my point and we see things differently because you lack vision imo.
Lack vision. Thats what cult members say ie you lack faith.

That ship has sailed anyway. Our religious right leadership has us back in the dark ages.
Thats BS, its nothing to do with religion. As for the dark ages, thats exactly where many of the ER types want us to go.

NB Singapores wealth is based on Indo oil.
 

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sdfc

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My point was that a zygote is alive and human in much the same way that a sperm is, and should have no legal protections. If a 2000 year old religious text tells you different, then follow the tenets of your deity. Just don't expect others to do so.
So what's the cut off?
 

douglyzia

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Can anyone explain to me why leftists tend to ramble/shout/scream/ramble incoherently at random in public?

I see these mentally disturbed/unstable individuals (who are obviously under the influence of drugs or alcohol) talking a bunch of incoherent/schizophrenic shit in public (you can see many of them in the Kings Cross, NSW area) and I can't help but feel that they are all leftists like CM86 just putting a bunch of random words together which make no sense.

Like, for example, CM86 supports Greta Thunberg, even though all of her social media posts are made by her cowardly father hiding behind his 16-year old daughter.
 

cartwright

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Can anyone explain to me why leftists tend to ramble/shout/scream/ramble incoherently at random in public?
Huh?? *reads rest of post*

I see these mentally disturbed/unstable individuals (who are obviously under the influence of drugs or alcohol) talking a bunch of incoherent/schizophrenic shit in public (you can see many of them in the Kings Cross, NSW area) and I can't help but feel that they are all leftists like CM86 just putting a bunch of random words together which make no sense.

Like, for example, CM86 supports Greta Thunberg, even though all of her social media posts are made by her cowardly father hiding behind his 16-year old daughter.

 

Evolved1

Beancoin shill
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So what's the cut off?
Depends...if the life of the mother is at risk, there is no cut off.

Reasonable ways to determine abortion laws should be based on ethics and medicine rather than religious texts. Australia isn't a theocracy.
 

Patrick Bullet

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Can anyone explain to me why leftists tend to ramble/shout/scream/ramble incoherently at random in public?

I see these mentally disturbed/unstable individuals (who are obviously under the influence of drugs or alcohol) talking a bunch of incoherent/schizophrenic shit in public (you can see many of them in the Kings Cross, NSW area) and I can't help but feel that they are all leftists like CM86 just putting a bunch of random words together which make no sense.

Like, for example, CM86 supports Greta Thunberg, even though all of her social media posts are made by her cowardly father hiding behind his 16-year old daughter.
Super cool story, bro!
 

Patrick Bullet

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This article just came out. The abstract seems to suggest that disruptive protests may be counter productive. Perhaps another lesson for the left on what not to do (still, it would be better to learn more about what the left needs to do).


The activist’s dilemma: Extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements.

Abstract

How do protest actions impact public support for social movements? Here we test the claim that extreme protest actions—protest behaviors perceived to be harmful to others, highly disruptive, or both—typically reduce support for social movements. Across 6 experiments, including 3 that were preregistered, participants indicated less support for social movements that used more extreme protest actions. This result obtained across a variety of movements (e.g., animal rights, anti-Trump, anti-abortion) and extreme protest actions (e.g., blocking highways, vandalizing property). Further, in 5 of 6 studies, negative reactions to extreme protest actions also led participants to support the movement’s central cause less, and these effects were largely independent of individuals’ prior ideology or views on the issue. In all studies we found effects were driven by diminished social identification with the movement. In Studies 4–6, serial mediation analyses detailed a more in-depth model: observers viewed extreme protest actions to be immoral, reducing observers’ emotional connection to the movement and, in turn, reducing identification with and support for the movement. Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements.
 

Evolved1

Beancoin shill
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This article just came out. The abstract seems to suggest that disruptive protests may be counter productive. Perhaps another lesson for the left on what not to do (still, it would be better to learn more about what the left needs to do).


The activist’s dilemma: Extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements.

Abstract

How do protest actions impact public support for social movements? Here we test the claim that extreme protest actions—protest behaviors perceived to be harmful to others, highly disruptive, or both—typically reduce support for social movements. Across 6 experiments, including 3 that were preregistered, participants indicated less support for social movements that used more extreme protest actions. This result obtained across a variety of movements (e.g., animal rights, anti-Trump, anti-abortion) and extreme protest actions (e.g., blocking highways, vandalizing property). Further, in 5 of 6 studies, negative reactions to extreme protest actions also led participants to support the movement’s central cause less, and these effects were largely independent of individuals’ prior ideology or views on the issue. In all studies we found effects were driven by diminished social identification with the movement. In Studies 4–6, serial mediation analyses detailed a more in-depth model: observers viewed extreme protest actions to be immoral, reducing observers’ emotional connection to the movement and, in turn, reducing identification with and support for the movement. Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements.
Disruptive protests are largely outside the control of either major political party and are also used by both sides of the political spectrum.

Most of those offering advice to the left on this thread are so far to the right that they wouldn't vote for the ALP under any circumstance.

Pandering to the far right would be political suicide for the ALP. They need to stay relevant to middle class swinging voters (like myself).
 

Patrick Bullet

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Disruptive protests are largely outside the control of either major political party and are also used by both sides of the political spectrum.

Most of those offering advice to the left on this thread are so far to the right that they wouldn't vote for the ALP under any circumstance.

Pandering to the far right would be political suicide for the ALP. They need to stay relevant to middle class swinging voters (like myself).
While the first sentence is not false, the right wing of politics isn' the side that is missing its mojo. It's under no pressure to do things differently. It seems that it's the left who may want to consider evidence like this when building a strategy.

I agree with your second paragraph, but I do find their perspectives useful for understanding how people they may be influencing likely think about the left, and to what extent the left has become a characiture of itself.

I have no issue with the third paragraph other than to say that I don't think there are many out there who would be seriously considering that as a viable option. Maybe some of the old school Catholic unionists like Joe Bullock?
 

Evolved1

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While the first sentence is not false, the right wing of politics isn' the side that is missing its mojo. It's under no pressure to do things differently. It seems that it's the left who may want to consider evidence like this when building a strategy.

I agree with your second paragraph, but I do find their perspectives useful for understanding how people they may be influencing likely think about the left, and to what extent the left has become a characiture of itself.

I have no issue with the third paragraph other than to say that I don't think there are many out there who would be seriously considering that as a viable option. Maybe some of the old school Catholic unionists like Joe Bullock?
If we're discussing both aspects of the thread together, ie

1) How does the left get its political mojo back
2) and win power

We're discussing them from the angle that the left = ALP, and the ALP is a center left party.

How much did the vegan protests, for example, hurt the ALP politically? I'd say close to zero, as the ALP isn't associated with fringe left elements.
 

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Patrick Bullet

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If we're discussing both aspects of the thread together, ie

1) How does the left get its political mojo back
2) and win power

We're discussing them from the angle that the left = ALP, and the ALP is a center left party.

How much did the vegan protests, for example, hurt the ALP politically? I'd say close to zero, as the ALP isn't associated with fringe left elements.
I'm not so sure about that. One of the topics that came up in this thread was that despite the disconnect between the fringe left activities and the ALP policy platform, the more out there stuff seems to stick to the ALP. It's like the rule for some people is:
- vegan farm raids = left
- ALP = left
- vegan farm raids = ALP policy
Replace vegan farm raids with other relatively extreme activities and the logical inference still applies, despite being horrifically bad logic. Disruptive protests would count in this way for many people. A trucker who had been driving all day and just wants to end his shift gets caught up a traffic jam caused by XR. Doesn't take much for him to attribute his to the bloody leftists and next minute ALP are connected to that in his mind. Sure maybe he was never going to vote ALP, but there'll be plenty of others considering it, given all the madness that's gone on with #scottyfrommarketing. I could imagine one disruptive " loony vegan protest" the Friday before election day flip them back at a time where the bushfires are a distant memory.
 

Patrick Bullet

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Another interesting article by Pluckrose and Lindsay

This one's long so I've copied in the summary here. My takeaway for AusPol is that the Coalition has moved too far into the premodern space for my tastes. I don't see the ALP being particularly postmodern but postmodernism just sticks to the left for some reason.


  • Modernity, in terms of the views and values that have brought us out of the feudalism of the Medieval period and led us to the relative richness and comfort we enjoy today (and which are rapidly spreading around the world), is under threat from the extremes at both ends of the political spectrum.
  • Modernity is worth fighting for if you enjoy and wish others to enjoy the benefits of a first-world existence in relative safety and with high degrees of individual liberty that can express itself in functional societies.
  • Most people support Modernity and wish its anti-modern enemies would shut up.
  • The enemies of Modernity now form two disagreeing factions — the postmoderns on the left and the premoderns on the right — and largely represent two ideological visions for rejecting Modernity and the good fruits of the Enlightenment, such as science, reason, republican democracy, rule of law, and the nearest thing we can claim to objective moral progress.
  • Left-right partisanship is the tool by which they condemn Modernity and continually radicalize sympathizers to choose between the two warring factions of anti-modernism: postmodernism and premodernism.
  • A “New Center” centrist position is well-intended, represents most people’s politics, and cannot hold. It is naturally unstable and reinforces the very thinking that perpetuates our current state of what we term existential polarization.
  • Those who support Modernity should do so unabashedly and without reference to relatively minor partisan differences across the “liberal/conservative” split. The fight before us now is bigger than that, and the extremes at both ends are dominating the usual political spectrum to everybody’s loss.
  • Modernity can be fought for, and it’s probably what you already want unless you’re on the lunatic fringe of the left or right
 

sdfc

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Depends...if the life of the mother is at risk, there is no cut off.

Reasonable ways to determine abortion laws should be based on ethics and medicine rather than religious texts. Australia isn't a theocracy.
That's a rare case in a western society and it's not really being debated anyway.

Being uneasy with late term abortions is a question of decency rather than religion.
 

Pessimistic

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The left is by definition disempowered. Its roots.

how it deals with this contradiction whilst in power is the more interesting topic,

its only when conditions are really shit generally that an instinnctively conservative working class accept sweeping reforms. Running capitalism better than the tories seems gutless and hardly defining (the third way)
 

Pessimistic

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Can anyone explain to me why leftists tend to ramble/shout/scream/ramble incoherently at random in public?

I see these mentally disturbed/unstable individuals (who are obviously under the influence of drugs or alcohol) talking a bunch of incoherent/schizophrenic shit in public (you can see many of them in the Kings Cross, NSW area) and I can't help but feel that they are all leftists like CM86 just putting a bunch of random words together which make no sense.

Like, for example, CM86 supports Greta Thunberg, even though all of her social media posts are made by her cowardly father hiding behind his 16-year old daughter.
that is classic ‘playing the man’ are you capable of debating concepts?
 

Gethelred

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Most people are self-interested with their voting, it's just that young people don't have much in the way of assets to be concerned about. When they have more things of their own, watch them vote in such a way that preserves those things to their benefit (or perceived benefit at least).

If you want to sell climate change action to the average person, tell them their power bills will go down by switching to renewables and watch everyone jump on-board the climate change train.

Young people care about affordability of housing because they don't have one, as soon as you actually own a property though, you want it to go up in value. There's competing interests here between property owners and non-property owners. Not necessarily due to age, though it's increasingly likely that you'll be a property owner as you get older.
Underrated post.
 

Evolved1

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Underrated post.
I agree.

This thread is focused on periphery issues that will make no difference to the voting habits of swinging voters who decide election outcomes.

Many older blue collar workers, previously the bread and butter of the ALP, now have significant personal wealth. The demographics of our nation have changed, and the ALP would do well to learn from that.

I'm not likely to vote against my self-interest.
 

Evolved1

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That's a rare case in a western society and it's not really being debated anyway.

Being uneasy with late term abortions is a question of decency rather than religion.
I'm yet to meet anyone who is comfortable with late term abortion in most circumstances.
 

HairyO

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Disruptive protests are largely outside the control of either major political party and are also used by both sides of the political spectrum.

Most of those offering advice to the left on this thread are so far to the right that they wouldn't vote for the ALP under any circumstance.

Pandering to the far right would be political suicide for the ALP. They need to stay relevant to middle class swinging voters (like myself).
They need to stop pandering to inner city environmentalists and ignoring their traditional voters.

There is nothing like being told you are the problem by people who have large houses, drive 2 x 4WD, go on flights overseas, use vast amounts of energy, and have a vegie patch.

Albo has plenty of time though. Talk about the environment now then focus on winning in the 2nd and 3rd year and fall back on "we have already released our environmental policies" as an answer to everything.
 

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