Politics How does the left get its political mojo back and win power?

Evolved1

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Is anyone from the mainstream left actually arguing for late term abortion?

This thread is a s**t show because it's full of people proferring fixes for the center left with extreme right wing views. Let's not forget that Clinton won the popular vote and a scarecrow would have a good chance of defeating Scummo if an election were held tomorrow.

The left isn't far off. Moving to the extreme right won't help things.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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You are.
You've even ignored where I pointed out to another poster that exact fundamental disagreement, and how my point differed.




But good of you to bring it up two days later.

Your argument was completely disingenuous and you know it, for the sake of forcing Taylor in to a weird argument.

I get the position people have on abortion if they take the stance that the moment of conception is where a human life begins, although I don't agree personally.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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a scarecrow would have a good chance of defeating Scummo if an election were held tomorrow.

This was basically the position Shorten was in coming in to the last election and still managed to lose it.

Labor (and many left-leaning parties worldwide) seem to be unable to gain traction with the voter base to take power, which means they need to adjust their strategy in order to do so.
 
Is anyone from the mainstream left actually arguing for late term abortion?

This thread is a s**t show because it's full of people proferring fixes for the center left with extreme right wing views. Let's not forget that Clinton won the popular vote and a scarecrow would have a good chance of defeating Scummo if an election were held tomorrow.

The left isn't far off. Moving to the extreme right won't help things.

apparently it’s a big deal coz some states in the US amended their state laws :rolleyes:
 
Sep 21, 2009
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Your argument was completely disingenuous and you know it, for the sake of forcing Taylor in to a weird argument.

I get the position people have on abortion if they take the stance that the moment of conception is where a human life begins, although I don't agree personally.
Owen. You jumped in two days late to complain about what you thought I was doing.
I've corrected you.
Now you're just saying my argument is completely disingenuous. (Even though you didn't seem to know what it was previously).


What do you actually think my argument is? Let alone how is it disingenuous.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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Owen. You jumped in two days late to complain about what you thought I was doing.
I've corrected you.
Now you're just saying my argument is completely disingenuous. (Even though you didn't seem to know what it was previously).


What do you actually think my argument is? Let alone how is it disingenuous.

I waded through three pages of repetitive badgering questioning of Taylor because you disagree with her position, and - perhaps i'm overestimating - you're more than intelligent enough to understand her position as to why she believes the death rate is higher with legalised abortion.

You've corrected nothing in reality, since your posted quote was still misrepresenting Taylor's position.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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I waded through three pages of repetitive badgering questioning of Taylor because you disagree with her position, and - perhaps i'm overestimating - you're more than intelligent enough to understand her position as to why she believes the death rate is higher with legalised abortion.

You've corrected nothing in reality, since your posted quote was still misrepresenting Taylor's position.
People who claim all life is equal and life begins at conception are often OK with abortion sometimes.
But how can it be OK sometimes, if it's murder?

So I posed a very possible scenario, that Taylor 'misunderstood' repeatedly, so I kept 'badgering by repeating the question'.

If it's know 4 months out, that the woman would die during child birth. Is abortion acceptable.​
I believe nearly everyone would agree to the abortion, to save the woman's life. Which implies the woman's life holds more value than the fetus.
I'd be interested to see anyone call for the woman to die.


That connected to my earlier point on how abortions will continue to happen anyway. So by removing access to safe procedures, you are actually endangering more lives than required.
If the woman's life is valued higher than that of a fetus, we should not create the situation where it's more likely to kill the woman.
 
Jun 18, 2003
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This is disingenuous and you know it, either that or you're really not as intelligent as I thought you were.
Owen, with respect, I think you're being unfair to CM. I understand it looks like badgering but it really seems to me more like a genuine attempt to understand somebody else's position, and the limits of that position. Sometimes that requires lots of clarifying questions; it can look like badgering (especially on an online forum) but isn't intended to be. I found it helpful to read the discussion because I learned from it about Taylor's views.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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Owen, with respect, I think you're being unfair to CM. I understand it looks like badgering but it really seems to me more like a genuine attempt to understand somebody else's position, and the limits of that position. Sometimes that requires lots of clarifying questions; it can look like badgering (especially on an online forum) but isn't intended to be. I found it helpful to read the discussion because I learned from it about Taylor's views.

It wasn't an attempt to understand - which I've seen you actually try to do; it was an attempt for a gotcha moment, which CM86 tried a few times to claim on Taylor. A truly weird discussion.
 
Jun 18, 2003
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Is anyone from the mainstream left actually arguing for late term abortion?

This thread is a s**t show because it's full of people proferring fixes for the center left with extreme right wing views. Let's not forget that Clinton won the popular vote and a scarecrow would have a good chance of defeating Scummo if an election were held tomorrow.

The left isn't far off. Moving to the extreme right won't help things.
It could be fun collating all of the myths about the mainstream/liberal left that have come up on this forum and putting them into a thread. Some examples I've seen
- your quoted example
- the mainstream left wants to destroy capitalism
- the mainstream left wants to destroy the nuclear family
- the mainstream left support cancel culture (both sides' fringes do this - see Peter Singer in NZ for this week's example from the right)
- the mainstream left want to destroy religious institutions.

Any others?
 
Jun 18, 2003
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It wasn't an attempt to understand - which I've seen you actually try to do; it was an attempt for a gotcha moment, which CM86 tried a few times to claim on Taylor. A truly weird discussion.
If that's how you see it, then I probably can't persuade you otherwise. Truth is I can't read his mind so I can't claim any certainty about his motives, but my experience with CM (including in DM exchanges) is that he genuinely wants to improve discussions about sociopolitical matters though he would be the first to admit that sometimes he crosses a line. These days, I'm trying to give people the benefit of the doubt when I'm not 100% sure.
 
May 1, 2016
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All lives are valuable. Women losing their lives in an attempt to end another life is just tragic all around.

An estimated 80,000 lives are ended in Australia via abortion each year, we don't lose anywhere near that many in childbirth.
... any more.

It's an issue wrapped up so much with a liberation of women that there are drives in the USA to allow it right up to birth - bolstering the idea women's rights but turning up the nose of a large amount of people more moderate on the issue.

It's a risk the left has that by being too far down one track it alienates too much of their middle.
I despise the conflation of Australian and American politics. It allows for incredible foolishness, of the kind you're writing here.
Yeah my guy and I are looking into adopting some children at the moment.

I'd love to hear what you're doing.
"Only soldiers can talk about war" fallacy.

I'm glad you and your partner are looking at adopting some children. What relevance this has to abortion is negligible, beyond allowing you to retain your stance whilst being morally consistent.
My position is that life is all valuable, and certainly more valuable than lifestyle.

Anyone who looks at it objectively sees abortions for convenience of life of the mother would describe them as convenience abortions.

If the mother is going to die then there is no sense in both the mother and unborn both dying.

So terminations limited to situations where the mother will die from complications directly related to the pregnancy that aren't able to be managed or mitigated by any medical technology or treatment plans.

What about the other 99.6% of them?
Seeing as this seems to be the root of your objections with abortion, could you expand on this somewhat.

Define what you mean by an abortion of convenience first - so that we can confirm that we are actually discussing the same thing - and then how often you think or can prove it occurs.

On one hand, I don't want to dismiss what you're saying out of hand. On the other hand, you notoriously obfuscate your meaning like crazy, hiding your opinion behind incredibly careful wording and refusing to respond in areas in which you feel you can have no victory.

My position is pro-abortion, largely because I disagree with the notion of telling another person what they can or cannot do with their bodies; it's none of my business, and governments certainly should not get to legislate against it. If that makes me pro-murder, or undervalues human life, I'm uneasily comfortable with it; I'm also uneasily not completely against capital punishment, for completely different reasons.

Moral certitude is valuable only in a universe of absolutes.
 
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Sep 21, 2009
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Owen, with respect, I think you're being unfair to CM. I understand it looks like badgering but it really seems to me more like a genuine attempt to understand somebody else's position, and the limits of that position. Sometimes that requires lots of clarifying questions; it can look like badgering (especially on an online forum) but isn't intended to be. I found it helpful to read the discussion because I learned from it about Taylor's views.
Thanks anyway Patrick. But I don't think there is any point with that poster at the moment.
I did get frustrated with Taylor's tricks, and I was more confronting than I needed to be.

But I thought it was an interesting discussion.
 

Evolved1

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It could be fun collating all of the myths about the mainstream/liberal left that have come up on this forum and putting them into a thread. Some examples I've seen
- your quoted example
- the mainstream left wants to destroy capitalism
- the mainstream left wants to destroy the nuclear family
- the mainstream left support cancel culture (both sides' fringes do this - see Peter Singer in NZ for this week's example from the right)
- the mainstream left want to destroy religious institutions.

Any others?
That last one is an interesting topic. In my experience, the right is more likely to selectively discriminate against those of a specific Abrahamic faith while even anti-theists from the left tend to treat all religions equally.

I have one to add to the list; the mainstream left are anti-male extremist feminazis because they support women's rights.
 

medusala

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You have got to distinguish between the advocacy of things that are right — gay rights, transgender rights, whatever it is — and launching yourself politically into a culture war with the right. If you go, ‘Transgender rights is our big thing,’ and the right goes, ‘Immigration controls is our big thing,’ you’re going to lose that. You’re not going to be advancing any of the things you want to do… If you’re going out there and trying to advocate things in a finger-jabbing, sectarian way — ‘If you don’t sign up to what I’m saying, I’m going to come and disrupt your meetings and shout at you’ — you’re not going to win that battle. You’re just going to put a whole load of people off.”

Tony Blair (from Order Order site, no link)
 

sdfc

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People who claim all life is equal and life begins at conception are often OK with abortion sometimes.
But how can it be OK sometimes, if it's murder?

So I posed a very possible scenario, that Taylor 'misunderstood' repeatedly, so I kept 'badgering by repeating the question'.

If it's know 4 months out, that the woman would die during child birth. Is abortion acceptable.​
I believe nearly everyone would agree to the abortion, to save the woman's life. Which implies the woman's life holds more value than the fetus.
I'd be interested to see anyone call for the woman to die.


That connected to my earlier point on how abortions will continue to happen anyway. So by removing access to safe procedures, you are actually endangering more lives than required.
If the woman's life is valued higher than that of a fetus, we should not create the situation where it's more likely to kill the woman.
This is indeed disingenuous. You should really be telling us why you are so keen on mid to late term abortion for reasons of convenience.
 
Jun 18, 2003
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This is indeed disingenuous. You should really be telling us why you are so keen on mid to late term abortion for reasons of convenience.
Before asking people to do this perhaps you could first show that people are indeed actually "so keen on late term abortions for reasons of convenience" otherwise, the argument is moot.

It would also be helpful if you defined your working definition of "late term" because I don't think everyone agrees on that yet and it would be a shame to go down a rabbit hole with different definitions in our heads. What does late term mean to you? One month after conception? Three months? A day? A week?

Finally, what is a reason of convenience to you? Again, people might have different ideas in their mind when they use that expression. Maybe a way to do this is if for you to tell us the closest reason for an abortion to convenience that isn't quite a reason of convenience. Or maybe throw out some examples. E.g. is abortion following a rape a reason of convenience to you? What about following a one night stand? What about if the mother's alternative is death? Just throwing things out here to get a sense of where you stand.
 

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Before asking people to do this perhaps you could first show that people are indeed actually "so keen on late term abortions for reasons of convenience" otherwise, the argument is moot.

It would also be helpful if you defined your working definition of "late term" because I don't think everyone agrees on that yet and it would be a shame to go down a rabbit hole with different definitions in our heads. What does late term mean to you? One month after conception? Three months? A day? A week?

Finally, what is a reason of convenience to you? Again, people might have different ideas in their mind when they use that expression. Maybe a way to do this is if for you to tell us the closest reason for an abortion to convenience that isn't quite a reason of convenience. Or maybe throw out some examples. E.g. is abortion following a rape a reason of convenience to you? What about following a one night stand? What about if the mother's alternative is death? Just throwing things out here to get a sense of where you stand.
I don't believe for a moment that you could possibly think convenience refers to rape victims or that one month is late term.

I said mid to late term abortion. Let's say 20 weeks plus.

If you're one of those plodders who thinks a fetus is a parasite at least be honest about it.
 
Jun 18, 2003
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I don't believe for a moment that you could possibly think convenience refers to rape victims or that one month is late term.

I said mid to late term abortion. Let's say 20 weeks plus.

If you're one of those plodders who thinks a fetus is a parasite at least be honest about it.
So what are the boundaries for you for reasons of convenience?

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by late term - that was helpful.

Earlier, you suggested there are people here who are keen on people having access to late term abortions for reasons of convenience. I don't really remember anyone posting that they are keen on offering abortions for any reason (let alone convenience) 20 weeks after conception. If I'm mistaken, can you please point out some quotes?

If not - that is, if nobody here supports abortions for reasons of convenience, beyond 20 weeks after conception - then aren't you arguing against a phantom?

By the way, I'm not "one of those plodders". I'm not sure why you asked me that; I've not taken any position on abortion yet on this site. All I'm doing here is trying to work out your position. (In any case, we all know children are parasites until they're at least 30 :p)
 
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