Politics How does the left get its political mojo back and win power?

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Taylor

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The point being they were labor rusted ons before the culture wars.

thats how the wedge works. The right inflate crap out of one issue, making it the biggest issue for these people thus getting them to vote for cuts to themselves.
I think all politics try and make it about as few issues as possible inflated to the extreme, with as little nuance as possible.

It's why we could be taxed $5000 more a year and get an additional $7500 worth of services per year and the policy plan will collapse as costing $5000 extra a year even though everyone is better off.

The nuance of both positions is actually lost, the added value of services aren't factored in and then the other side questions that need to provide the service at such value to everyone whether they want it or not.

Far easier to keep it to simple issues.

So I suspect we will see personality politics where leaders try and keep the entire debate to them, with opposition attacks directed almost entirely at that individual.

Most people don't have the interest in hearing about it for even two minutes, and since everyone votes the value of the person's vote who does care is diluted by the thousand more who will vote on a soundbyte.
 

Taylor

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It makes an argument for a Starship Troopers libertarian circumstance where only those who are invested in the state get to vote on what the state does. That would do well for more fringe left politics.
 

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Taylor

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So why aren't the countries with optional voting all leftist havens?
Because it also works for fringe right politics and I'd argue that left wing politics appeals far more to those who have both nothing and nothing to lose than the example I was referring to where you needed to have served and invested into the nation to be able to have a say in the direction of it.
 

Coolangatta

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I know plenty of blue collar arse hanging out of their pants types who vite Coalition because they dont like brown people and lgtbiq folk.

literally lambs voting for wolves.
Okay, but why are some of these people voting for Labor in state elections then? They have to be, given the results we've seen. Why doesn't One Nation get more votes? A lot of Aussies are racist dickheads, I know, but surely it's the "tax cuts" and the scare campaign about Labor taxes that is the main reason for the Coalition's success. That, and Murdoch.
 

Noire

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Same mistakes over and over again

US
Joe Biden has ruined it for the left when Tulsi Gabbard was a better candidate
 

kranky al

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Okay, but why are some of these people voting for Labor in state elections then? They have to be, given the results we've seen. Why doesn't One Nation get more votes? A lot of Aussies are racist dickheads, I know, but surely it's the "tax cuts" and the scare campaign about Labor taxes that is the main reason for the Coalition's success. That, and Murdoch.
The coalition have the anti brown vote covered with stop the boats and their pushback against gay rights

and yes murdoch enables all of the wedge issues
 

projectv

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It makes an argument for a Starship Troopers libertarian circumstance where only those who are invested in the state get to vote on what the state does. That would do well for more fringe left politics.
It depends on how you define "invested in the state".

Paying taxes as an example, is literally investing in the state.

You do know that Starship Troopers was satire, right?
 

Taylor

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You do know that Starship Troopers was satire, right?
It was saterising fascist nations yes, but you'll notice how the lives of the people who didn't do their national service to gain their citizenship were still quite lovely - almost like the people had the choice to either put in and get benefits for it or leave that side alone and not lose out from that choice.

That's not fascist, that's libertarian.
 

projectv

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It was saterising fascist nations yes, but you'll notice how the lives of the people who didn't do their national service to gain their citizenship were still quite lovely - almost like the people had the choice to either put in and get benefits for it or leave that side alone and not lose out from that choice.

That's not fascist, that's libertarian.
I mean, it was lovely until the war they were fighting for no reason resulted in an asteroid killing them.

The flip side to your argument is that fighting in the military in service to an authoritarian state led to basic rights (like being able to vote), which is probably the least libertarian thing I've ever heard of.
 

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Taylor

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I mean, it was lovely until the war they were fighting for no reason resulted in an asteroid killing them.

The flip side to your argument is that fighting in the military in service to an authoritarian state led to increased rights, which is probably the least libertarian thing I've ever heard of.
If the rights aren't restricted by the choice not to be involved then it's not. You make the choice to join because you want the benefits.

Also, that attack on Buenos Aires was a false flag attack. There is no indication that the cannon bugs they were using to shift asteroids were capable of accelerating something FTL to reach Earth within the lifespan of any human involved in the attacks against expansion colonies and then drop out of FTL in order to contact the planet within the spectrum that didn't blow a hole in the planet.

They controlled the media reporting of it to get people motivated. It worked.
 

Carringbush2010

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I know plenty of blue collar arse hanging out of their pants types who vite coalition because they dont like brown people and lgtbiq folk.

literally lambs voting for wolves.
‘Preserving our British/Aussie way of life from excessive immigration’ when the culture they are referring to has literally evolved from what immigrants brought.

celtic and Aussie indigenous culture excepted, but that’s not what these people think they Are ‘preserving’
If you think these types are the popular majority then that is naive.
 

Taylor

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The most racist rant I've heard lately was from a Lebanese guy I met walking the dog telling me about how immigrants were coming here and taking the jobs him and his tradie mates were working in response to me saying "Oh, I'm a stay at home mum, what do you do?"

Of course I called the police immediately and they arrived in a flash given that I'm white, he told them the same thing he told me, they both rang their union reps who arrived in a flash - fired up the BBQ, sang "Am I Ever Gonna See Your Face Again" and the gentleman I met had his Australian Passport issued on the spot.
 

Carringbush2010

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The coalition have the anti brown vote covered with stop the boats and their pushback against gay rights

and yes murdoch enables all of the wedge issues
You're alluding that voters swayed by 'wedges' are the norm. They aren't, you're talking about a minority that there's a lot of 'noise' about, the majority of voters are not swayed by the 'wedges' - the majority are pretty much sensibly centred, other wise the likes of Palmer or Bandt would be in power.

Bare in mind these 'strayans' of the far right aren't exactly happy with what most would consider a right leaning conservative coalition.
 

projectv

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If the rights aren't restricted by the choice not to be involved then it's not. You make the choice to join because you want the benefits.

Also, that attack on Buenos Aires was a false flag attack. There is no indication that the cannon bugs they were using to shift asteroids were capable of accelerating something FTL to reach Earth within the lifespan of any human involved in the attacks against expansion colonies and then drop out of FTL in order to contact the planet within the spectrum that didn't blow a hole in the planet.

They controlled the media reporting of it to get people motivated. It worked.
It depends on how far your rights are restricted and what the benefits are.

In your scenario, civilians can't even vote in Starship Troopers world. Only veterans can. Civilians that work and pay taxes, can't vote. That's your libertarian take. :huh:

Anyways, I might have to go back and rewatch it! It's such a great movie.
 

Taylor

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It depends on how far your rights are restricted and what the benefits are.

In your scenario, civilians can't even vote in Starship Troopers world. Only veterans can. Civilians that work and pay taxes, can't vote. That's your libertarian take. :huh:

Anyways, I might have to go back and rewatch it! It's such a great movie.
Don't vote, aren't expected to serve either.

One of the big issues for women when they got the vote was their fear of being added to the draft because that was a possible outcome of the right to contribute to the course of the nation being exercised.

From what I saw, those who didn't serve their nation didn't get to hold public office or vote, everyone else was free to do what they want - see Rico's parents living in a palace in paradise. Not citizens
 

Carringbush2010

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The most racist rant I've heard lately was from a Lebanese guy I met walking the dog telling me about how immigrants were coming here and taking the jobs him and his tradie mates were working in response to me saying "Oh, I'm a stay at home mum, what do you do?"

Of course I called the police immediately and they arrived in a flash given that I'm white, he told them the same thing he told me, they both rang their union reps who arrived in a flash - fired up the BBQ, sang "Am I Ever Gonna See Your Face Again" and the gentleman I met had his Australian Passport issued on the spot.
Is this character on Fat Pizza or Housos?
 

kranky al

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You're alluding that voters swayed by 'wedges' are the norm. They aren't, you're talking about a minority that there's a lot of 'noise' about, the majority of voters are not swayed by the 'wedges' - the majority are pretty much sensibly centred, other wise the likes of Palmer or Bandt would be in power.

Bare in mind these 'strayans' of the far right aren't exactly happy with what most would consider a right leaning conservative coalition.
We are talki g about elections being win by a percent here and a percent there but
 

projectv

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Don't vote, aren't expected to serve either.

One of the big issues for women when they got the vote was their fear of being added to the draft because that was a possible outcome of the right to contribute to the course of the nation being exercised.

From what I saw, those who didn't serve their nation didn't get to hold public office or vote, everyone else was free to do what they want - see Rico's parents living in a palace in paradise. Not citizens
But why is serving in the military the only metric that matters? I understand women had that fear, especially as suffrage came at around the time of many wars. But it's not the only factor when living in a society.

If you pay taxes you're contributing to the services required by the state. Or you're working to provide those services, or you're educating others you're benefiting that state. If you're not allowed to vote who governs you then how is that equitable?

I feel I'm the one with the libertarian take here.
 

Taylor

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But why is serving in the military the only metric that matters? I understand women had that fear, especially as suffrage came at around the time of many wars. But it's not the only factor when living in a society.

If you pay taxes you're contributing to the services required by the state. Or you're working to provide those services, or you're educating others you're benefiting that state. If you're not allowed to vote who governs you then how is that equitable?

I feel I'm the one with the libertarian take here.
Was there taxes?

Is there a threshold for contributing more than would be expected of an average member of society that would constitute the title of citizen?

Personally I'm not sure if pouring money into the system should be something that gains you status.
 

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