How highly to you rate Rodrigo Vargas?

[RoJo Junior]

Starting from an earlier dispute with Ernie over defenders. Typical Melbourne Victory pumping their own players to exaggerated proportions IMO. I see Vargas as the average defender, nothing that makes him stand out, not necessarily exceptionally strong or gargantuan like in the air and hardly a feared defender of the league. I agreed that he has improved since the beginning of his Victory career, but nothing that has elevated him to a very good player in my mind. How he managed to get a shot for the Aussie national team is absolutely beyond me, and its no wonder we lost that game.

However the Victory faithful would have you believe hes of a 'pretty good' calibre. So from the list im about to provide (irrespective of position) who would go prefer at your team or who do you consider better than Vargas?

NB. Alert me of any defenders i've failed to mention or update this list. Theres a few i omitted that im sure people would agree Vargas beats (ie. the youngsters) Also realise i wrote 'to' instead of 'do' in the title

ADELAIDE
Robert Cornthwaite
Alemao
Scott Jamieson
Daniel Mullen
Michael Marrone
Iain Fyfe

CENTRAL COAST
Pedj Bojic
Dean Heffernan
Andrew Clark
Nigel Boogaard
Alex Wilkinson

GOLD COAST
Adam Griffiths
Michael Thwaite
Steve Pantelidis
Bas van den Brink
Kristian Rees
Daniel Piorkowski

NEWCASTLE
Angelo Costanzo
Ljubo Milicevic
Nikolai Topor-Stanley
Tarek Elrich
Ben Kantarvoski

NORTH QUEENSLAND
Chris Tadrosse
Robbie Middleby
Paul Kohler
Jacob Timpano
Beau Busch
Scott Wilson

PERTH GLORY
Jamie Coyne
Jamie Harnwell
Naum Sekulovski
Scott Neville
Andy Todd

BRISBANE ROAR
Andrew Packer
Luke DeVere
Craig Moore
Josh McCloughan
Danny Tiatto
Ben Griffin
Hyuk-Su Seo

SYDNEY
Matthew Jurman
Shannon Cole
Antony Golec
Sebastian Ryall
Rhyan Grant

WELLINGTON
Jeremy Christie
Tony Lochhead
Jon McKain
Karl Dodd
Andrew Durante
Dave Mulligan
Manny Muscat

Bolded players are who i prefer. Not to mention players like North, Milligan, Djulbic and Foxe who are far superior players than Vargas that are no longer in the A-League. Also Muscat and Sukra the new signing, which would knock him down the pecking order to number 3 in his team alone. IMO hes about on par with Topor-Stanley on ability, and we're all aware of the significant criticism he has copped in these parts.

So that makes him roughly the 20th best defender in the league. Doesn't really class him as a 'pretty good' player IMO.

 

[RoJo Junior]

I also have it on good authority that hes not the sharpest tool in the shed, evidenced by this picture.

 

[thebigboy]

Firstly, I'm going to state that the quality of defending in the A-League, is poor.

Now as much as us Victory supporters can be biased, I think your hatred of Melbourne Victory is influencing your opinion on this matter.

Vargas has been our most consistent defender since he joined us. In that time, we have won 2 titles with our defence in those years being probably our main strength, alongside Allsopp and Thompson.

Some of the players you've highlighted are in no way better than Vargas. These players are:

McCloughan (Tries his hardest, but makes errors that cost him and his team)
Cornthwaite(will prove to be better by the end of his career but right now, Vargas is better IMO)
Wilkinson (his form last year was very up and down. Has potential to be better, no doubting that)
Thwaite (would have got a game ahead of Vargas if he was better)
Harnwell (He's ok but I wouldn't consider him ahead of any of these defenders. To me, his future lies off the bench and potentially being used as a pinch hitter up forward).
Mulligan (never heard of him),
Tiatto (doesn't even play in defence)
Dodd (IMO, he's not even Wellington's 2nd best defender, Durante and McKain are the best there)
Cole (Apart from set pieces and crosses, what does he actually do?)

Ljubo has more talent, just his attitude problem holding him back.

You mention Hayden Foxe. His best, which was last seen around the turn of the century, is completely ludicrous. He barely got on the park in the last 4 years of his career. His best was Socceroo quality but sadly it was seldom seen.

Vargas has been better than Muscat for the last 2 seasons. I think you'll find that alot of pundits and supporters point out Muscat as victory's biggest weakness. He's slow and apart from his leadership qualities, he wouldn't be in the Victory side at its best.

Vargas is a defender that is consistent week in, week out. Is strong in a tackle and plays taller than what he is. There's not much more you can want from a Centre-Half IMO.

 

[BlueFan4]

Poor thread.

If you think the likes of Wilkinson, Cornthwaite, Thwaite, Heffernan, Coyne (lol), Harnwell, Hefernan, Milicivic (Defensive midfeilder), Josh McCloughan,
Danny Tiatto, Tony Lochhead, Jon McKain, Dave Mulligan, Dodd and Cole are all better than Vargas then you really don't watch enough A-league.

Funny you have two of Glory's CB's in front of Vargas even though you hacks managed to concede 44 goals last season (Worst in the league). Who did you say was bias?

Secondly you have four Wellington players ahead of him even though they conceded my goals that us last season (31-27).

You have no evidence to back your argument up. He has been an integral part of a Premiership defence in both 06/07 and 08/09.

 

[RoJo Junior]

Funny you have two of Glory's CB's in front of Vargas even though you hacks managed to concede 44 goals last season (Worst in the league). Who did you say was bias?

The beginning of the season we were a shambles with a couple of weak links in the defence, it took virtually forever to get Tando into the team (for god knows what reason) and by that time we'd conceded a ridiculous amount of goals. I'd like to know how many we conceded after that point in comparison. Theoklitos would be the best keeper in the league last season which would also contribute to the less goals conceded.

Did you also take into consideration that its not exactly the defences' fault goals are conceded, more often than not the game is won in the midfield. If your midfield is weak you'll lose games. Ours i'll concede was very poor early on, only Amaral looked of any quality, then after we signed Shroj and Sikora and Pellegrino started to jell better surprisingly enough we started to perform better.

Maybe i was over the top of my critique of Vargas, but hes by no means an international standard or let alone a 'very good' defender, hes just the average joe IMO same with some of those that you mentioned. You certainly dont want him being the cornerstone of your defence. Hes the Robin to the Batman, and not the other way around.

To TBB, woops i bolded the wrong player, Durante was meant to be bolded not Mulligan.

 

[BlueFan4]

He wouldn't cut it in Europe but would be in my top 4 A-league defenders without a doubt. The fact that he has won two Championships in the center of the Victory defence has to say something.

Do you think we could have won two Championships with an "average" defender in the heart of defence?

 

[RoJo Junior]

Yes, your whole defence is an average defence, theres no real standouts. The midfield and attack is where your side excels better than any other team in the league. As well as your keeper. Leading stars like Hernandez mixed with the experience and class of Brebner and Pondeljak as well as two young Aussie stars in Ward and Celeski (both former Glory players!! ) with Thompson and Allsopp up front is the reason you have won 2 finals the latter being the cause of the first with the former causing the second. If you guys have more possession by dominating the midfield, the less opportunity the opposition has to score. Better midfields win you games.

 

[BlueFan4]

According to ESPN soccernet, Theoklitos has made a total of 43 saves from 20 games last season, now if we compare that to Galekovic who had 68 saves from 20 games, Moss 41 from 13 (you had four Wellington players ahead of Vargas). In fact, on average Theokitos would have made the second least saves in the competition last season, behind Liam Reddy.

Surely the defence has to have some sort of contribution to the fact that Theo made very little saves last season? Or is it just luck?

With these statistics Vargas had to be doing something right, doesn't he?

Theoklitos: 43 saves from 20 games

Galeckovic: 68 saves from 20 games

Velaphi: 32 saves from 14 games

Moss: 41 saves from 13 games (Just to reiterate the fact that you had four Wellington players ahead of Roddy.)

Covic: 61 from 20 games

Reddy: 35 from 20 games

McMaster: 10 from 6 games

Vukovic: 38 from 16 games

Bolton: 35 from 10 games

Necevski: 35 from 12

EDIT: Can you please post some statistics claiming that our midfield controls the majority of possession? I believe most our goals come from counter attacking plays rather than breaking teams down.

 

[Punt Road Feral]

I rate him very highly. Don't have the time atm to say who he's better and why but im very greatful to have him in my side.
I would go as far to saying he is in our top 5 players easily which is tops for a championship winning side

 

[RoJo Junior]

Geez BF4 who would have thought, the team that finished higher on the ladder conceded less goals and had less shots at their goal. I guess with your stats there that means Theoklitos is one of the worst keeper in the league. In the EPL Cech has had 86 saves compared to Jaaskalainen's 144. Geez i should've emailed Chelsea and informed them they should've swooped for him at the start of the season we'd have never conceded a goal. Wes Brown must be one of the best defenders in the EPL going on goals conceded, and that would make Coloccini one of the worst

As for Melbourne the fact they dominated at home last season was a main reason behind their defensive record. Out of 13 home games, in only 5 games you conceded goals. Making your home ground a fortress was a main reason you won the league. 11 wins and 2 losses from your home games. Averaging 2 goals a game at home, you would assume that once you got a lead, which was generally the case, you would defend it... yes?

Away from home you averaged conceding an extra 1 goal a game and averaged more goals conceded than scored (1.6 to 1.5 IIRC). At home the ratio was 2 goals scored to 0.5. There is no team statistic you can possibly use to prove that player (x) is better than player (y). Sometimes you just have to make an observation on what you see. As i've said as a 2nd defender he does the job, hes not a player to build the defence around. If you guys want to win the title this season, a CB would be a main priority.

 

[BlueFan4]

Geez BF4 who would have thought, the team that finished higher on the ladder conceded less goals and had less shots at their goal. I guess with your stats there that means Theoklitos is one of the worst keeper in the league. In the EPL Cech has had 86 saves compared to Jaaskalainen's 144. Geez i should've emailed Chelsea and informed them they should've swooped for him at the start of the season we'd have never conceded a goal. Wes Brown must be one of the best defenders in the EPL going on goals conceded, and that would make Coloccini one of the worst

As for Melbourne the fact they dominated at home last season was a main reason behind their defensive record. Out of 13 home games, in only 5 games you conceded goals. Making your home ground a fortress was a main reason you won the league. 11 wins and 2 losses from your home games. Averaging 2 goals a game at home, you would assume that once you got a lead, which was generally the case, you would defend it... yes?

Away from home you averaged conceding an extra 1 goal a game and averaged more goals conceded than scored (1.6 to 1.5 IIRC). At home the ratio was 2 goals scored to 0.5. There is no team statistic you can possibly use to prove that player (x) is better than player (y). Sometimes you just have to make an observation on what you see. As i've said as a 2nd defender he does the job, hes not a player to build the defence around. If you guys want to win the title this season, a CB would be a main priority.

No, not one of the worst keepers in the league, just had the least to do thanks to our defence. You have to give our defence some credit, that's all I ask. You can't honestly believe some of the tripe you have been posting, it's ridicules. Saying the likes of Andrew Durante are better defenders than Vargas, it's complete and utter crap and I think you know this.

Are you also suggesting that any defender can look good in a good defence? How is this possible when you claimed our defence was one of the worst in the league?

As for Cech, I would way rather have Jussi Jasskelainen in my goal. We're comparing one of the most overrated goalkeepers in the league with the most underrated. So poor comparison on your behalf.

 

[RoJo Junior]

Theres certainly ones in there you can argue either way if you wish, i've got no problem with that. Based on your personal preference Vargas can fall anywhere between i'd say that 12-20 mark. There wouldnt be much between those 2 mentioned. If i was to give them a grade they'd both be B.

I said you must credit your attack and midfield at home. MV attack and midfield is the best in the league IMO. Theres no doubt that surely once you reach a stage in a match when you're infront you begin to defend a lead and the manager alters tactics. You dont think that say MV up 2-0 at home (as the averages of last season would suggest would happen at home) that there wouldn't be a larger focus on not conceding?

 

[peterss]

LOL @ Rojo thinking Coyne is a good defender and better then Vargas

ROFL

FWIW - I rate Vargas.

 

[Perth Swans]

I think Vargas is behind only Moore, Todd and Jamieson in terms of A-League defenders. Rojo you are definitely being way too harsh on him and if you think players like Coyne and Mulligan are better than him then it's clear you don't watch much A-League

 

[ErnieSigley]

I think Vargas is behind only Moore, Todd and Jamieson in terms of A-League defenders. Rojo you are definitely being way too harsh on him and if you think players like Coyne and Mulligan are better than him then it's clear you don't watch much A-League

Todd might be but you can't say since he has played 0 A-league games.
Jamison is more an attacking wing back than a prue defender like Vargas.

 

[geodke]

not flashy, but effective

 

[Bombers41]

Geez BF4 who would have thought, the team that finished higher on the ladder conceded less goals and had less shots at their goal. I guess with your stats there that means Theoklitos is one of the worst keeper in the league. In the EPL Cech has had 86 saves compared to Jaaskalainen's 144. Geez i should've emailed Chelsea and informed them they should've swooped for him at the start of the season we'd have never conceded a goal. Wes Brown must be one of the best defenders in the EPL going on goals conceded, and that would make Coloccini one of the worst

As for Melbourne the fact they dominated at home last season was a main reason behind their defensive record. Out of 13 home games, in only 5 games you conceded goals. Making your home ground a fortress was a main reason you won the league. 11 wins and 2 losses from your home games. Averaging 2 goals a game at home, you would assume that once you got a lead, which was generally the case, you would defend it... yes?

Away from home you averaged conceding an extra 1 goal a game and averaged more goals conceded than scored (1.6 to 1.5 IIRC). At home the ratio was 2 goals scored to 0.5. There is no team statistic you can possibly use to prove that player (x) is better than player (y). Sometimes you just have to make an observation on what you see. As i've said as a 2nd defender he does the job, hes not a player to build the defence around. If you guys want to win the title this season, a CB would be a main priority.

Don't why I'd even bother arguing with you, (not worth it) but whatever, It's his ablility to read the ball better than most defenders that gives him an extra edge a very smart player, who isn't the full package you may be looking for but gees A-league defenders aren't great overall.

Fair enough you have your view but that argument you gave is beyond ridiculous, you can't put words in people's mouth and what stage did BF4 say that Theo was any worse than the others because of that stat :S if anything it shows that he stepped up when needed but that's not the argument. TOOL.

 

[Demon 86]

Sorry the following is a reply to RoJo Junior previous post. I broke it up into pieces to dissect it!

Geez BF4 who would have thought, the team that finished higher on the ladder conceded less goals and had less shots at their goal. I guess with your stats there that means Theoklitos is one of the worst keeper in the league

Or.... because we have a solid defensive unit- which Vargas is integral to as well?

In the EPL Cech has had 86 saves compared to Jaaskalainen's 144. Geez i should've emailed Chelsea and informed them they should've swooped for him at the start of the season we'd have never conceded a goal. Wes Brown must be one of the best defenders in the EPL going on goals conceded, and that would make Coloccini one of the worst

this is just baffling... i should leave it alone, but ill just add (to the Wes Brown reference) Vidic and Ferdinand?

As for Melbourne the fact they dominated at home last season was a main reason behind their defensive record.

or maybe the other way round buddy? we dominated at home because we only conceded 8 goals- I think defence may have had some part to do with it, of which Vargas is a part of!

Making your home ground a fortress was a main reason you won the league.

And all good fortresses have a solid defence (Vargas is a part of that in case u werent sure)

Averaging 2 goals a game at home, you would assume that once you got a lead, which was generally the case, you would defend it... yes?

Yes. And defend it well- which Vargas can take a lot of credit for. I dont understand how this in any way helps ur arguement- in fact it helps Vargas!

Away from home you averaged conceding an extra 1 goal a game and averaged more goals conceded than scored (1.6 to 1.5 IIRC). At home the ratio was 2 goals scored to 0.5. There is no team statistic you can possibly use to prove that player (x) is better than player (y). Sometimes you just have to make an observation on what you see.

I dont understand the point... Im sorry ill have to phone a friend for this one....

hes not a player to build the defence around. If you guys want to win the title this season, a CB would be a main priority.

well he's had 2 titles built around him so far, and i sense a third...

And finally I do agree we need another CB, but only as a backup in case 2 time premiership, 2 time championship, and 07-08 MVFC player of the year Roddy Vargas gets injured.

Oh and for the record, I dont think Vargas should be in the socceroos squad, but when he was he was named man of the match (for the socceroos) against Indonesia.

 

[RoJo Junior]

My main point is that he was an undersized CB. Its the same basis the Demons forward line is shithouse atm. Robertson as the focal point, regardless of how good he is/was hes not the answer. In every sport theres set positions where you need a player to be of a certain physical standard

I guess you missed the sarcasm in the Theoklitos comment, its ok, you're still learning i'll forgive you. BF4 said that your team plays a counterattacking style if anything, that would mean the whole side has a greater emphasis on defending, a defensive mindset. Its moreso getting the numbers behind the ball and using your attacking pace to beat other teams. So the defensive record is not attributable to solely the defence, so you cant say, player X that played in a team that conceded 20 goals is better than player Y who's in a team that conceded 40. It takes every player on the team to work as a unit to ensure they dont concede.

Im not saying Vargas is crap, im saying that he is a second defender thats what he is. Like it or not hes not the one to build the defence around, he needs to be accompanied by a big, strong CB. He gets outmuscled by strong strikers and those that are exceptionally quick would have his measure too. Thats why the point of this is whether or not Vargas is the main defender. Ok read this line carefully... Melbourne need to sign a defender that is greater than 6 foot tall, can jump, win headers, is aggressive and fearless. You need defensive pairings that complement each other. Unless you sign this 'Mr X' Melbourne will not come close winning the title this season. Teams are getting better, the defensive deficiencies of sides will be tested this season moreso than ever.

 

[Demon 86]

My main point is that he was an undersized CB. Its the same basis the Demons forward line is shithouse atm. Robertson as the focal point, regardless of how good he is/was hes not the answer. In every sport theres set positions where you need a player to be of a certain physical standard

I guess you missed the sarcasm in the Theoklitos comment, its ok, you're still learning i'll forgive you. BF4 said that your team plays a counterattacking style if anything, that would mean the whole side has a greater emphasis on defending, a defensive mindset. Its moreso getting the numbers behind the ball and using your attacking pace to beat other teams. So the defensive record is not attributable to solely the defence, so you cant say, player X that played in a team that conceded 20 goals is better than player Y who's in a team that conceded 40. It takes every player on the team to work as a unit to ensure they dont concede.

Im not saying Vargas is crap, im saying that he is a second defender thats what he is. Like it or not hes not the one to build the defence around, he needs to be accompanied by a big, strong CB. He gets outmuscled by strong strikers and those that are exceptionally quick would have his measure too. Thats why the point of this is whether or not Vargas is the main defender. Ok read this line carefully... Melbourne need to sign a defender that is greater than 6 foot tall, can jump, win headers, is aggressive and fearless. You need defensive pairings that complement each other. Unless you sign this 'Mr X' Melbourne will not come close winning the title this season. Teams are getting better, the defensive deficiencies of sides will be tested this season moreso than ever.

Hey Victory are a tad better than the Demons

And yes I completely understood ur sarcasm regarding Theo, let me re-edit that as ur Theo reference had nothing to do with my rebuttal:

YOU:

Geez BF4 who would have thought, the team that finished higher on the ladder conceded less goals and had less shots at their goal.

ME:

because we have a solid defensive unit- which Vargas is integral to as well

Understand now?

Vargas isnt the biggest centreback going around, agreed. If that was your 'main' contention you never mentioned it until now.

Our backline is built around Muscat anyway.

As for not coming close to winning the title without another centreback- Vargas and Muscat were our defensive combo in all bar 2 games last year and we had no troubles, so I would have to disagree with that.

 

[RoJo Junior]

So you admit the defence is built around Muscat. Yet everyone on here was saying how Muscat was so badly past it. So what does that say about Vargas' capabilities at being the leading defender. You're basically agreeing with me here. I said his role is a second defender, thats what he is. You cannot build the defence around him.

What acquisitions have you made in the defensive side of it this season. You've offloaded more players than gained AFAIK.

 

[Demon 86]

So you admit the defence is built around Muscat. Yet everyone on here was saying how Muscat was so badly past it. So what does that say about Vargas' capabilities at being the leading defender. You're basically agreeing with me here. I said his role is a second defender, thats what he is. You cannot build the defence around him.

What acquisitions have you made in the defensive side of it this season. You've offloaded more players than gained AFAIK.

Well im not sure who said Muscat is past it but i think he's still got another title winning year in him

We signed Surat Sukha from Chonburi FC he was ACL CB for them. I would say Muscat and Vargas are about on par in terms of importance for us. My main objection to what you've said is that we HAVE to sign another defender or we wont come close to winning the title. Im just saying that Roddy has done well enough in our 4 seasons to have won 2 titles as part of our rock solid back 4. I wouldnt necessarily say you have to build a back 4 around ONE player, I'd say both CBs are as important as each other.

At the end of the day I'd take Roddy over almost every CB in the A-League and strongly disagree that he's not even in top 10, and also strongly disagree that we HAVE to sign another CB to win our third title. Back-up would be nice, and it appears we now have that with this Thai fella!