How long does the AFLW season need to be?

[Caputo]

I have a left field view where they are randomly drawn and depth can vary from year to year. I do not want geographical but 7 groups of 2 where rivals are drawn in each group and a crossover derby or rival match. Drawn like a cup knock out Example

1. Melbourne and Western Bulldogs (Pre AFLW)
2. Carlton and Collingwood
3. Geelong and North Melbourne Tasmania Kangaroos (Expansion)
4. Brisbane and Gold Coast
5. Fremantle and West Coast Eagles
6. Richmond and St Kilda
7. Adelaide and GWS (no rivals but waiting for Port and Sydney)

The only dud pair in 2020 was Fre/WCE but this should even out.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Interesting idea for an 18 team, 11 game Home and away season Teen Wolf.

Each week there would be once cross conference game so by the end of the first 9 rounds the last 2 matches (rounds 10 and 11) are fixtured according to the principles you talked about (conference standings excluding inter conference games) taking into account which 3rd the Round 1-9 cross conference opponent was ranked in.

That way you don’t need 2 byes per week and an extra week for the season because of an uneven number of teams in each conference.

I would personally prefer 14 teams, 13 rounds by 2023 or 2024 before expanding to 18 teams, 13 rounds and gradually increasing to 17 games by a defined endpoint this decade.

I go back-and-forth on the bye issue because I know one less game per week means one less crappy timeslot that has to be filled. And on the other hand, well, we already know why byes suck.

Make no mistake TTH, the only thing I'd prefer more than 13 rounds in a 14-team league would be 17 rounds in an 18-team league, for the women's and men's competitions... but who's signing off on that?

This is why conferences are based on the proceeding years results.

In any case, an arbitrary geographic divide doesn't seem any more valid that any other way iof dividing up the conferencs.

Basing the conferences on results in the previous year doesn't even work though, in terms of creating a balanced competition. Plus, it makes it pretty hard to follow who's in what conference each season, even for dedicated supporters.

But it's not arbitrary to have the amount of travel between teams and conferences as even as possible. Under the current system (and putting aside potential pandemic-related circumstances), Brisbane would be the only non-Vic team in Conference A next year. Totally unfair on them and likely to artificially hurt their performance, which then throws 2022's conferences further out of wack.

The issue is, the NFL system evolved out of the different leagues that ultimately created the NFL. These leagues had different strengths, especially initially, so some conferences being stronger us accepted as part of that.

In the AFLW, (and the AFL if it ever goes down that route), this isn't the case. If one conference becomes much stronger or weaker, people will go apeshit.

I have a small but nagging reserve of optimism that it comes down to execution. However, for the most part, it definitely does seem like new concepts are automatically more susceptible to criticism, which does kinda put the AFL in a difficult lose-lose situation for a lot of issues.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

22 H/A games minimum with 3 week finals.

14 teams currently play which means that, fixture wise, they can have:

R1 = R14.
R2 = R15.
R3 = R16.

So on and so forth.

 

[Teen Wolf]

22 H/A games minimum with 3 week finals.

14 teams currently play which means that, fixture wise, they can have:

R1 = R14.
R2 = R15.
R3 = R16.

So on and so forth.

How could the AFL say no to that, such a compelling and well-explained proposal.

 

[Florida Footy Fan]

How could the AFL say no to that, such a compelling and well-explained proposal.

Sometimes the best proposals are the ones that are summed up with "So on and so forth."

 

[eastfreo75]

I have a left field view where they are randomly drawn and depth can vary from year to year. I do not want geographical but 7 groups of 2 where rivals are drawn in each group and a crossover derby or rival match. Drawn like a cup knock out Example

1. Melbourne and Western Bulldogs (Pre AFLW)
2. Carlton and Collingwood
3. Geelong and North Melbourne Tasmania Kangaroos (Expansion)
4. Brisbane and Gold Coast
5. Fremantle and West Coast Eagles
6. Richmond and St Kilda
7. Adelaide and GWS (no rivals but waiting for Port and Sydney)

The only dud pair in 2020 was Fre/WCE but this should even out.

14 game season would be great.

Final 6 knock out comp

First round
A. 3 v 6
B. 4 v 5

Second Round
C. 1 v winner of Game B
D. 2 v winner of Game A

Third Round
E. Winners games C and D.

 

[master bate]

The first things to do are to shift to spring and to cut the number of teams back to 8 and vastly improve the standard of the game. Once that happens then the comp can be stretched to 14 rounds and 2-3 rounds of finals.

Aiming to get to 18 teams and being beholden to men's clubs is just lazy. Short term sugar fix to get crowds and allegiances but it is costing the clubs character and soul at growing from the community level up. Obviously the finances would take a hit but if you started all new teams at the semi pro level now and targeted a new audience you'd be able to then cater to and grow that audience.

AFL clubs pushing AFL standard training on to women with no experience in the game is just a recipe for injuries at the moment.

 

[Teen Wolf]

The first things to do are to shift to spring and to cut the number of teams back to 8 and vastly improve the standard of the game. Once that happens then the comp can be stretched to 14 rounds and 2-3 rounds of finals.

Aiming to get to 18 teams and being beholden to men's clubs is just lazy. Short term sugar fix to get crowds and allegiances but it is costing the clubs character and soul at growing from the community level up. Obviously the finances would take a hit but if you started all new teams at the semi pro level now and targeted a new audience you'd be able to then cater to and grow that audience.

AFL clubs pushing AFL standard training on to women with no experience in the game is just a recipe for injuries at the moment.

The amount of players on a current list with no experience in the game is miniscule. If you can't grasp such a simple point, it's not even worth bothering to respond to the rest of that drivel.

 

[master bate]

The amount of players on a current list with no experience in the game is miniscule. If you can't grasp such a simple point, it's not even worth bothering to respond to the rest of that drivel.

The first TAC cup season was 5 games in 2017. It's really only the girls drafted last year who had a chance at 2 proper elite level girls competition seasons and even then it's likely that they didn't play footy all the way through from 12-18 at any decent level.

Melbourne's best team from last year still had a couple of basketballers, 2 Irish girls brand new to the game and a couple of soccer converts in Newman and Cordner. And it would've had a whole lot more if list expansion didn't see the grid iron player, the beach flags girl and the ultimate frisbee player move clubs.

It's not a knock on them, it's just a reality that the comp went all in on elite athletes and fitness development before the junior game caught up, which won't be helped by this years lost NAB league season either.

Cut the number of teams and there won't be such a focus on the athletes and the proper footballers will shine, which in turn means the games feature a lot more skill. It's a tackle and pressure fest at the moment - similar to the men's game - because too many sides lack skilled players who can get out of traffic and create space.

 

[Teen Wolf]

The first TAC cup season was 5 games in 2017. It's really only the girls drafted last year who had a chance at 2 proper elite level girls competition seasons and even then it's likely that they didn't play footy all the way through from 12-18 at any decent level.

Melbourne's best team from last year still had a couple of basketballers, 2 Irish girls brand new to the game and a couple of soccer converts in Newman and Cordner. And it would've had a whole lot more if list expansion didn't see the grid iron player, the beach flags girl and the ultimate frisbee player move clubs.

It's not a knock on them, it's just a reality that the comp went all in on elite athletes and fitness development before the junior game caught up, which won't be helped by this years lost NAB league season either.

Cut the number of teams and there won't be such a focus on the athletes and the proper footballers will shine, which in turn means the games feature a lot more skill. It's a tackle and pressure fest at the moment - similar to the men's game - because too many sides lack skilled players who can get out of traffic and create space.

I'm struggling to see how the small contingent of Irish players have in any way hurt the quality of the competition, overall they've been brilliant. And the likes of Kate Hore and Aliesha Newman... gee, what a burden they've been.

First you brought up the point about those players as a reason for injuries, now you're saying the problem with them is they aren't highly skilled footballers. As somebody who pays decent attention to the league, I know both claims are ridiculous.

 

[jatz14]

The first TAC cup season was 5 games in 2017. It's really only the girls drafted last year who had a chance at 2 proper elite level girls competition seasons and even then it's likely that they didn't play footy all the way through from 12-18 at any decent level.

Melbourne's best team from last year still had a couple of basketballers, 2 Irish girls brand new to the game and a couple of soccer converts in Newman and Cordner. And it would've had a whole lot more if list expansion didn't see the grid iron player, the beach flags girl and the ultimate frisbee player move clubs.

It's not a knock on them, it's just a reality that the comp went all in on elite athletes and fitness development before the junior game caught up, which won't be helped by this years lost NAB league season either.

Cut the number of teams and there won't be such a focus on the athletes and the proper footballers will shine, which in turn means the games feature a lot more skill. It's a tackle and pressure fest at the moment - similar to the men's game - because too many sides lack skilled players who can get out of traffic and create space.

For some reason, the AFL has hyped cross over players. But it often ignores the fact that for many of these 'cross over' players, footy was always their number 1 sport, they weren't playing it because they wanted a sport career pathway, and footy didn't have one. Ash Brazil is a cross over player. She got in trouble in WA, because she played a season in the WAFLW under a fake name so Netball didn't find out, and won best first year player (which was awarded under her real name). She was the best first year player because she always played, unofficially. Could kick, mark, handball, understood the game, was athletic and had good spatial awareness from netball. Regarding her in the AFLW as a 'rookie cross over player' was stupid.

Conway from Brisbane was talked up as a cross over from hockey, where she was in the junior Australian team. What was frequently not mentioned was she was also in the U16 and U18 Queensland footy team. How can a national junior footy player be a 'cross over' athlete?

Phillips as has been frequently mentioned, was regarded as one of the best 14 year old footy players in the country when she had to quit to go to basketball.

Very few cross over players came to footy with no background in it, or understanding off it. Collingwoods Layton is one of the few that come to mind. Even the players with no formal connection to footy usually have extensive informal connections, playing it at school with the boys, or family and friends. Chloe Malloy switched from Basketball to footy in the NAB cup, and immediately became one of the best juniors in Victoria. Because she understood the game well, and was well versed in the skills, even if she hadn't played many formal games.

It seems the AFL liked talking up cross over athletes, as it created an impression that women all over the country were clambering to play footy. It also gave the impression that someone who didn't know what footy was could just walk into the AFLW and become a star, which is far from the case.

 

[jatz14]

The first TAC cup season was 5 games in 2017. It's really only the girls drafted last year who had a chance at 2 proper elite level girls competition seasons and even then it's likely that they didn't play footy all the way through from 12-18 at any decent level.

Melbourne's best team from last year still had a couple of basketballers, 2 Irish girls brand new to the game and a couple of soccer converts in Newman and Cordner. And it would've had a whole lot more if list expansion didn't see the grid iron player, the beach flags girl and the ultimate frisbee player move clubs.

It's not a knock on them, it's just a reality that the comp went all in on elite athletes and fitness development before the junior game caught up, which won't be helped by this years lost NAB league season either.

Cut the number of teams and there won't be such a focus on the athletes and the proper footballers will shine, which in turn means the games feature a lot more skill. It's a tackle and pressure fest at the moment - similar to the men's game - because too many sides lack skilled players who can get out of traffic and create space.

The guy responsible for TAC/NAB cup in Victoria was of the opinion, if you were concerned with quality, go for the maximum number of teams as fast as possible. If I recall, he wanted 18 straight away.

Having 18 teams is going to get you to a comp with enough talent for 18 elite teams far faster than having 6 or 8 teams will. So suck up the first few years with weaker comps, and go for it.

In WA, if you were going to wait for Freo to develop enough talent to have a second team, you would be waiting a long time imop. If you want WA to be able to field 2 strong teams, you need to bring the Eagles in as early as possible, even if it means they struggle. Because the Eagles have considerable resources, which even in Covid times, they are throwing at developing and unearthing talent.

The very fact the Eagles are in will possibly attract talent, as girls contemplating multiple sporting options, may well choose footy over other sports if they are mad Eagles supporters, and see playing for the Eagles as a possibility. And a Freo development squad is going to be concentrating on a squad big enough to suit its own needs, not expanding the comp for another club down the track.

South Australia is already an issue. They have expanded dramatically their female programs, but where do they go, with only 1 club? There is a reason about 4 or 5 SA players went interstate. Adelaide being a one horse town is going to start putting a break on player development in SA pretty soon imop. They cannot wait 5 years for Port, another couple at most.

The grid iron player also played footy before the AFLW (see previous post). Cordner came from a footy family background, I doubt playing in a footy team was the novelty you seem to think it was,

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Cordner came from a footy family background

I was happy when I saw that she'd join Melbourne for 2017 purely for family reasons.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Like previous years, TV ratings took a beating this weekend with the clash of men's pre-season matches. The irregular 5pm Friday game also rated poorly on Fox Footy, although it wouldn't yet be quite fair to judge the viewership potential of that slot as it coincided with an Australian men's T20 cricket fixture which has affected AFLW ratings in the past.

Nevertheless, it's clearly a stupid time to play games and there's more where that came from, for example: Gold Coast's round 8 fixture against Carlton at Metricon Stadium is scheduled for a 4.10pm local time start on a Friday, circumventing the Round 1 men's match played between Collingwood and the Western Bulldogs in primetime.

----

I note the league's most famous player (get over it) did not play on the weekend, listed as "managed". Carlton coach Daniel Harford said: "[Tayla Harris] has been banged up a bit, had a dodgy knee for a little while so just a bit of a freshen up for her. We're gonna need her to go anywhere through the remainder of the season so it was an opportunity for her to have a spell and get her back."

We're at the stage where clubs are having to rest marquee players in order to get through a 9-round H&A season. And this is to say nothing of the injuries that have depleted several teams this year (particularly West Coast and St Kilda from the outset, and more recently Geelong and the Suns), which of course would increase with a longer season.

One of the league's best players, Monique Conti, was a late out for Richmond on Friday due to an unremarkable hamstring complaint. But it's worth wondering whether she would've been more likely to maintain her scintillating form uninterrupted if she had done a proper pre-season as opposed to playing basketball.

Supporters who secured tickets to attend the Carlton and Richmond games would have done so expecting to see Harris and Conti play. What quality assurances for the AFLW product can the AFLPA make in order to justify 13 (or 17) H&A rounds per year, given the physical demands of 9 rounds is already pushing clubs and the dedicated playing group to a breaking point.

 

[jatz14]

Like previous years, TV ratings took a beating this weekend with the clash of men's pre-season matches. The irregular 5pm Friday game also rated poorly on Fox Footy, although it wouldn't yet be quite fair to judge the viewership potential of that slot as it coincided with an Australian men's T20 cricket fixture which has affected AFLW ratings in the past.

Nevertheless, it's clearly a stupid time to play games and there's more where that came from, for example: Gold Coast's round 8 fixture against Carlton at Metricon Stadium is scheduled for a 4.10pm local time start on a Friday, circumventing the Round 1 men's match played between Collingwood and the Western Bulldogs in primetime.

----

I note the league's most famous player (get over it) did not play on the weekend, listed as "managed". Carlton coach Daniel Harford said: "[Tayla Harris] has been banged up a bit, had a dodgy knee for a little while so just a bit of a freshen up for her. We're gonna need her to go anywhere through the remainder of the season so it was an opportunity for her to have a spell and get her back."

We're at the stage where clubs are having to rest marquee players in order to get through a 9-round H&A season. And this is to say nothing of the injuries that have depleted several teams this year (particularly West Coast and St Kilda from the outset, and more recently Geelong and the Suns), which of course would increase with a longer season.

One of the league's best players, Monique Conti, was a late out for Richmond on Friday due to an unremarkable hamstring complaint. But it's worth wondering whether she would've been more likely to maintain her scintillating form uninterrupted if she had done a proper pre-season as opposed to playing basketball.

Supporters who secured tickets to attend the Carlton and Richmond games would have done so expecting to see Harris and Conti play. What quality assurances for the AFLW product can the AFLPA make in order to justify 13 (or 17) H&A rounds per year, given the physical demands of 9 rounds is already pushing clubs and the dedicated playing group to a breaking point.

Not sure you can draw the conclusion re players durability. Although it could be an issue, I dont think Conti or Harris highlight it very much. I think list size is going to be an issue though, there isnt a lot of leeway there, and bringing in outside players at short notice doesn't help things.

Freo and Eagles mens teams are likely to be down a bunch of players between them, and they have played 1 game. Indeed, the whole mens practice round this week seems to have been fairly devastating on the injury and durability front.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Not sure you can draw the conclusion re players durability. Although it could be an issue, I dont think Conti or Harris highlight it very much. I think list size is going to be an issue though, there isnt a lot of leeway there, and bringing in outside players at short notice doesn't help things.

Freo and Eagles mens teams are likely to be down a bunch of players between them, and they have played 1 game. Indeed, the whole mens practice round this week seems to have been fairly devastating on the injury and durability front.

There isn't a question about whether women are far more susceptible to long-term injuries though. Given that disparity exists, marquee players sitting out matches due to minor fitness concerns feels like a luxury which AFLW can ill afford.

Everybody just assumes that because men's football and state league women's football have always been based around recurring seven-day breaks, it must therefore be the appropriate structure for delivering an optimal AFLW product. This is a notion the AFL probably can't even begin to explore and challenge as long as they are tasked with appeasing vocal members of the playing group who espouse the dogged "all teams must play each other once" mentality.

 

[jatz14]

Some long term injuries they are more susceptible to. I don't know it means that they are more susceptible to wear and tear and minor injuries though.

It isn't ideal for the comp to be missing star players, but that's true of the men's game to.

My concern is more the greater disparity in fitness and "toughness" across the league.

Those players that have been in the system 5 years are starting to show the affect of time spent training and on professional weight programs. Some of them are pretty buff.

On the other hand, there are a large number of players straight out of school, with a couple of months of preseason.

18 year Olds in men's leagues are more likely to wait a year or 2, or 3, before their first game.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Teen Wolf]

Some long term injuries they are more susceptible to. I don't know it means that they are more susceptible to wear and tear and minor injuries though.

It isn't ideal for the comp to be missing star players, but that's true of the men's game to.

They aren't more susceptible to minor injuries, but the product is more susceptible to suffer when star players miss games in the women's league.

It's easier for the men's league to absorb stars being managed because, for one thing, there's less chance of other stars already sidelined with long-term injuries.

So that's why I think fixturing solutions that seek to reduce those Harris and Conti examples should be looked at for AFLW. Before we even think about having 13+ rounds.

My concern is more the greater disparity in fitness and "toughness" across the league.

Those players that have been in the system 5 years are starting to show the affect of time spent training and on professional weight programs. Some of them are pretty buff.

On the other hand, there are a large number of players straight out of school, with a couple of months of preseason.

18 year Olds in men's leagues are more likely to wait a year or 2, or 3, before their first game.

That's only an issue if there is a wildly uneven spread of those established players across the league. And there is, but it's an expansion team recruiting issue, which could be corrected in one sign-and-trade period.

 

[KingJim]

11 months of the year would be good with a break at Christmas

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Actually think if they are going to expand to 18 that we need two divisions.
8 week season, top 3 finals system with promotion/relegation play-offs also

 

[BallaratBulldog]

I always wanted to play each other once at lest. You can make it the most fair that way. One day like the mens. They can develop more too by then.

 

[FreoMonocle]

The aim should be for 18 teams play each other twice for 34 games plus finals (which the mens should be doing too).

You play for the most part of a year so that you are training throughout the year. A longer season will make clubs manage players (periodic rests), where they don't really do that currently in the mens. It is a sport, so playing everyone twice makes an even fixture (it's a sport, not a friggin reality tv show), if it's too long for some viewers, boohoo, they can watch just the games that they want - which is what happens anyway, we don't send people to the gulag over it.

The AFLW suffers from it's lack of fitness, coaching and constant access to other professionals (dieticians, physiotherapist etc), it translates into the gameday experience not being as good as it could be for those reasons. A long season is the only fix, you only look fully professional when you are fully professional, working a different job which is the status quo and and just playing for a couple of weeks is a crap idea - keep that for the lower leagues where people aren't paying for the product.

AFLW's finances, not a problem seed it and then let them fund it. Membership fees, merchandising, gate sales and tv (where the AFL gave away tv rights for nothing), that adds up to a significant sum even with less bums on seats, it won't amount to million dollar salaries for the superstars, but they should be able to generate enough to at least pay the national average wage to be a professional athlete for a job.

There are 7 days in a week, plenty enough time for both men and womens leagues to not be competing against each other, there is opportunity aplenty if you don't approach it myopically, it doesn't have to be a clash between the leagues. Own a tv channel and do footy throughout the week, Fox earns gazzillions from it, where it could be the League making that money.

Adelaide oval could for example have a Crows mens game on a saturday and a port womens game on sunday. A better use of Adelaide oval (and Optus Stadium etc) than just 1 game a week, a chance in non vic states to see your club play live weekly.

 

[The Victorian]

The aim should be for 18 teams play each other twice for 34 games plus finals (which the mens should be doing too).

You play for the most part of a year so that you are training throughout the year. A longer season will make clubs manage players (periodic rests), where they don't really do that currently in the mens. It is a sport, so playing everyone twice makes an even fixture (it's a sport, not a friggin reality tv show), if it's too long for some viewers, boohoo, they can watch just the games that they want - which is what happens anyway, we don't send people to the gulag over it.

The AFLW suffers from it's lack of fitness, coaching and constant access to other professionals (dieticians, physiotherapist etc), it translates into the gameday experience not being as good as it could be for those reasons. A long season is the only fix, you only look fully professional when you are fully professional, working a different job which is the status quo and and just playing for a couple of weeks is a crap idea - keep that for the lower leagues where people aren't paying for the product.

AFLW's finances, not a problem seed it and then let them fund it. Membership fees, merchandising, gate sales and tv (where the AFL gave away tv rights for nothing), that adds up to a significant sum even with less bums on seats, it won't amount to million dollar salaries for the superstars, but they should be able to generate enough to at least pay the national average wage to be a professional athlete for a job.

There are 7 days in a week, plenty enough time for both men and womens leagues to not be competing against each other, there is opportunity aplenty if you don't approach it myopically, it doesn't have to be a clash between the leagues. Own a tv channel and do footy throughout the week, Fox earns gazzillions from it, where it could be the League making that money.

Adelaide oval could for example have a Crows mens game on a saturday and a port womens game on sunday. A better use of Adelaide oval (and Optus Stadium etc) than just 1 game a week, a chance in non vic states to see your club play live weekly.

An 17 game season is far more realistic than a 34 season game...

 

[Teen Wolf]

The aim should be for 18 teams play each other twice for 34 games plus finals (which the mens should be doing too).

Give it a rest, players will never agree to anything like this.

The AFLW suffers from it's lack of fitness, coaching and constant access to other professionals (dieticians, physiotherapist etc), it translates into the gameday experience not being as good as it could be for those reasons.

No it doesn't. AFLW players have world class access to all of those things, partly enabled by the minimal overlap in the men's and women's seasons

There are 7 days in a week, plenty enough time for both men and womens leagues to not be competing against each other, there is opportunity aplenty if you don't approach it myopically, it doesn't have to be a clash between the leagues.

Are the best timeslots going to be shared equally between the men's and women's leagues? If not (which is guaranteed, they aren't even shared equally among the men's teams now), then the leagues clearly are competing against each other for media coverage. Won't be much of a contest though, AFLW will be the loser hands down.

Adelaide oval could for example have a Crows mens game on a saturday and a port womens game on sunday. A better use of Adelaide oval (and Optus Stadium etc) than just 1 game a week, a chance in non vic states to see your club play live weekly.

A silly post with a fitting ending. PAFC women's team is going to be playing standalone home games at the Adelaide Oval? In what fiscal-warped reality? In what distant century?

 

[VolgaBoatman]

Push it up from 9 games to 13 games until it's expanded to 18 teams, then 17 games if possible - i guess you could make it 14 and 18 games - with the home derbies twice to make it 7 home and 7 away games (or 9 + 9). The squads might need to be bigger perhaps with that many games. Is there also a feeling that could there be an expansion to 18 players per side on field and longer quarters ?