How much is our game plan to blame... ?

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Brishawk

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I always thought it was the coach and support staff who identified the gaps in the list that needed (e.g. small forward, outside mid, etc) to be filled to enable maximum success and it was the recruiting head who went to market (trading or draft) to get that type of player. Come draft night, they jointly then agree who is taken, particularly if there is a slider who does not fit with our specific need.

???
I’m sure Clarko has some say around strategy but I’m also sure he didn’t tell Wright to only take midfielders with rookie picks for the last 6 drafts (Finn and Worpel aside). Or pick no one fast before last year. Or draft one kpd between brand and dgb...even if I agree with all the trading, the actual drafting hasn’t been strong to choose players capable of playing the modern game. We basically ignored pace for the best part of a decade at the draft when pace was becoming increasingly important, especially from 2016 onwards.
 

Brishawk

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To boil that down, no, we don't have precision kicks like Hodge and Birchall who can kick their way through a zone. We may never.

So it's time to design a game plan with what you've got. This stagnant, kicking down the line sh*t will get us nowhere fast.

To me it seems he can't move on from the 3 peat years. Fair enough. Most like sticking with winning formulas. But our list, and the game itself, has evolved and moved on.
If we had day, Gunston, Sicily, Downie and brockman in the side it improves our foot skills a lot. Problem is we badly miss those players from the senior side (injury and not otherwise advanced enough) and we are left with shiels and Phillips try to do the job...
 

TylerDurden

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If we had day, Gunston, Sicily, Downie and brockman in the side it improves our foot skills a lot. Problem is we badly miss those players from the senior side (injury and not otherwise advanced enough) and we are left with shiels and Phillips try to do the job...
I still think the game has moved on from that style of play. Teams like the Demons and Dogs just move the footy so fast now. It really is the blueprint of the modern game. Speed kills.
 

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Mrzohs

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Without being a dickhead can someone please tell me what the game plan is forward of center?
- We seem to get drawn into bombing it long and high kicking from moving the football to slow.
The fwd leading patterns are a mystery not that the midfielder receiving the ball is looking at the goals to notice.
 

Brishawk

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I still think the game has moved on from that style of play. Teams like the Demons and Dogs just move the footy so fast now. It really is the blueprint of the modern game. Speed kills.
There is still a need to hit targets by foot to open up the field. And yeah I think all those players help the game Clarko is trying to implement too. The question is, what do you do in the mean time with the players you have that are fit?
 

Brishawk

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Without being a dickhead can someone please tell me what the game plan is forward of center?
- We seem to get drawn into bombing it long and high kicking from moving the football to slow.
The fwd leading patterns are a mystery not that the midfielder receiving the ball is looking at the goals to notice.
As a general statement, forwards run towards goal when the ball is moving freely and quickly forward and then execute a J lead where the player with the ball needs a target. Or maybe they get the ball over the top but that usually only works once you get to the forward fifty after moving the ball quickly. The J lead creates space behind in the forward fifty for your other tall forward to lead from the centre toward the space in the forward pocket. To get that to work you need to move the ball quickly.


imagine a 4 x 4 grid of players. If you run the ball past the first line in the grid, the second line has to push up towards the ball carrier. If you get a runner coming from behind you can outflank that like and draw in the next line of defence. If you can repeat that then inevitably you out number the defenders in your forward line because they have all shuffled up to defend. That is if it works perfectly.

what usually happens is you don’t execute perfectly and you end up looking to kick it forward. That defensive grid gets really tight once the defenders have pushed back into fifty so the best you can do is kick it deep so they have to start further back and maybe you can set your defence to get it back.

shirt version:ideally you draw defenders to the ball and out flank them to ensure you keep drawin the whole next line towards the ball. You end up with forwards moving towards goal and defenders going away from goal and that is how you get space in your forward line.

If you don’t do it you need a forward to come at you or bang it deep. That is the general nature of modern football as opposed to hawthorn specific plans. But that is why we are trying to use hands to runners and when that breaks down we kick it long to a crowd.
 

CHUBBSS

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One of the big changes that is really noticeable now is leg speed. It’s always been a thing but it’s incredibly noticeable just how important it is this year.

and no surprise we have zero speed around the ball, the slowest midfield in the game. We are clearly aware based on our most recent picks which is good.

Essentially the old strategy really did us in, in that department, with injuries, covid luck and our own luck, doing us no favours.

until we address this we will never have a midfield that will break even. 2018 Mitchell was a lot more explosive then he is now but even still I think the game is just faster.

Why I desperately want scrimshaw around the ball, good mover, good user and surprisingly quick.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see all of scrimshaw, cj, day around the ball next year after doing big stints Of development in the backline giving us some seriously good footballers, but will be interesting if they can all make the jump
 

Roger Rogerson

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Very much I would say and I'd add player conditioning. Hawthorn are too light, lack strength and speed.
Given Hawthorn are 15th for goals for and 16th for goals against, neither the attack nor defence is succeeding.
I think you have to hang your hat on one. I'd go attack.
I'm asking for a goal a quarter. That's it! Seems a lot, you may say but given we have had 3 goalless, 10 one goal, 9 two goal and 10 three goals quarters (32 out of 44{close enough to 75%}) this year, It's not so much.
Every team has its moments of dominance and if you don't score the opposition stays in the game.
11.10.76 was our fifth highest score for the year...wtf
Those 44 lost goals would have us equal highest score in the league with the Bulldogs.
Yep the players have to take some of the rap, but that's media-driven crap that the list is no good. Our last 3 games have all been against like types and hardly raised a yelp.
That is staggering those scoring quarter stats. This is the biggest issue for mine. We are impotent and have been for some time. It just isn't being fixed as it is due to the personnel in the middle primarily.
 

Gaston

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Double edged sword. The gameplan also takes any talented player we have and makes them look like plodders. It takes any flair they have out of their game. Same at Collingwood.

I'd prefer to lose by 10 goals. Take it on. Play the right way. That way, when it clicks, we'll have a chance at winning some games.

Keep going like this and we'll soon forget how to win at all.
North Melbourne aside, who are the 2 worst sides in the comp?
Hawks & Pies.

Reason in point above.
 

Mrzohs

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As a general statement, forwards run towards goal when the ball is moving freely and quickly forward and then execute a J lead where the player with the ball needs a target. Or maybe they get the ball over the top but that usually only works once you get to the forward fifty after moving the ball quickly. The J lead creates space behind in the forward fifty for your other tall forward to lead from the centre toward the space in the forward pocket. To get that to work you need to move the ball quickly.


imagine a 4 x 4 grid of players. If you run the ball past the first line in the grid, the second line has to push up towards the ball carrier. If you get a runner coming from behind you can outflank that like and draw in the next line of defence. If you can repeat that then inevitably you out number the defenders in your forward line because they have all shuffled up to defend. That is if it works perfectly.

what usually happens is you don’t execute perfectly and you end up looking to kick it forward. That defensive grid gets really tight once the defenders have pushed back into fifty so the best you can do is kick it deep so they have to start further back and maybe you can set your defence to get it back.

shirt version:ideally you draw defenders to the ball and out flank them to ensure you keep drawin the whole next line towards the ball. You end up with forwards moving towards goal and defenders going away from goal and that is how you get space in your forward line.

If you don’t do it you need a forward to come at you or bang it deep. That is the general nature of modern football as opposed to hawthorn specific plans. But that is why we are trying to use hands to runners and when that breaks down we kick it long to a crowd.
I appreciate the response thanks, great in depth analysis i do notice this modern day strategy / trend.
The issues with us I see with this.. the forwards need to have a aerobic tank and Footy IQ to pull this off. Outside Bruest, Gunners when he is available, Kosi is learning his craft, I don't see the other fwds as capable.
I also don't think we have the speed or quick decision makers in the midfield to pull this off at the moment.

Granted - currently out of the side Sic,Day,Gunners are quick/smart decision makers.
 

Strapping Young Lad

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One of the big changes that is really noticeable now is leg speed. It’s always been a thing but it’s incredibly noticeable just how important it is this year.

and no surprise we have zero speed around the ball, the slowest midfield in the game. We are clearly aware based on our most recent picks which is good.

Essentially the old strategy really did us in, in that department, with injuries, covid luck and our own luck, doing us no favours.

until we address this we will never have a midfield that will break even. 2018 Mitchell was a lot more explosive then he is now but even still I think the game is just faster.

Why I desperately want scrimshaw around the ball, good mover, good user and surprisingly quick.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see all of scrimshaw, cj, day around the ball next year after doing big stints Of development in the backline giving us some seriously good footballers, but will be interesting if they can all make the jump
We have a lot of speed in the stands and at Box Hill.

Day, Mitchell, Saunders, DGB, Bramble, Brockman and dare I say it, Nash.

We also lose “speed” by not having players like Day and Sicily in the back half who can and will take the challenging kick and make the play up the middle.

I don’t think the list is as void of speed and talent as some others, but we’re clearly lacking belief in both of these aspects in the best 22 at the moment.
 

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JC Hawks

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That plays a significant part no doubt, but it isn't the only reason, Geelong have been up the top end of the ladder for years and they haven't bottomed out like this.
They also haven't won any premierships since 2011 so useless the way I see it. We're closer to a flag than they are if they can't get it this year.
 

The hands of stone

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yeah having good, long kicks will make you fast even if your feet aren't (though even then it still took Izzie and Hill for our 3peat midfield to come into its own)

unfortunately, our feet aren't fast either
The current 22 are mostly pedestrian foot speed wise with average skills at AFL level . Not a great mix when you also throw in low confidence and lack of belief .
 

OnTheRocks

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You have been warned numerous times to stay away from other departments and stop interfering. They do not answer to you and warned about talking to them like that. They have been instructed to make calls on what they think is best, not you.
If you have a problem with that, you take it up with me. Not them.
Do you know who the f*** I am, I can do whatever I want.
Yes all right, take your rant with you as you get escorted out.
Wright could have delivered this to Ckarko as too could have Jeff but it also could have been delivered to Jeff by one of the other Clarko or Wright.
 

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That plays a significant part no doubt, but it isn't the only reason, Geelong have been up the top end of the ladder for years and they haven't bottomed out like this.
Geelong play half their games at a Cheat Ground and the league is full of country bumpkins wanting to play there for the lifestyle. They also have a number of posters on this board pretending to be Hawthorn fans.
 

Gaston

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The modern game is all about getting the ball ahead of the defence before structures can be set up.
We clearly fail at this howevr I noticed with Melbourne that their defence even sets up to stop short kicks and thus
forcing a long ball. Again, we get dictated to by these et ups.

Again we are exceptionally low on confidence (not the 1st time under Clarkson) but one way we could start to break
defensive structures is continually getting CJ, Impey or Frost free to run into the middle, from there you should start
to draw defences. CJ was ignored multiple times against Gold Coast, so not like he or others aren't trying.

One piece of play that explains where we are at, the kick in the last qtr that went to Shiels.
Put us is an attacking position to move the ball quickly. Where did he go with his next kick?
It was the pie floater to Burgoyne, If Shiels is a leader he should have tried harder to move the ball through the middle.
He also failed at the end of the 1st qtr, running into 50 he should have kicked for goal, he kicked
to the top of the square. Pathetic.
 

burner1

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We lack cattle. But also play to minimise damage which means we are not learning how to attack properly.

I think the big change in the game we missed was speed inside the contest. Our model has been slow inside ball winners with some pace outside. But the dogs and then Richmond play a forward moving style that just bull dozes straight through the contest (geelong used to do this a bit too). They don’t release to the outside as we do but run in waves. And with loose holding the ball interpretations it’s hard to lock ball in. Inside Mids seems as quick as ever these days.

Our mids get smashed when the opposition wins the ball in a clearance or on transition - they are just not quick/agile enough to keep up. And when we get the ball we get closed down so easily.

While we have drafted some pace in last two years outside Finn none of these are midfielders. We may start to fix this through the draft but a long way to go. Howeverthe recent draftees will hopefully add some needed class and speed across the park and will give us a chance to move the ball on transition as currently we are too slow and poorly skilled to move the ball at speed.

There’s obviously lots of other issues with our list and gameplan but fixing the midfield is key.
 

Hawk Dork

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We lack cattle. But also play to minimise damage which means we are not learning how to attack properly.

I think the big change in the game we missed was speed inside the contest. Our model has been slow inside ball winners with some pace outside. But the dogs and then Richmond play a forward moving style that just bull dozes straight through the contest (geelong used to do this a bit too). They don’t release to the outside as we do but run in waves. And with loose holding the ball interpretations it’s hard to lock ball in. Inside Mids seems as quick as ever these days.

Our mids get smashed when the opposition wins the ball in a clearance or on transition - they are just not quick/agile enough to keep up. And when we get the ball we get closed down so easily.

While we have drafted some pace in last two years outside Finn none of these are midfielders. We may start to fix this through the draft but a long way to go. Howeverthe recent draftees will hopefully add some needed class and speed across the park and will give us a chance to move the ball on transition as currently we are too slow and poorly skilled to move the ball at speed.

There’s obviously lots of other issues with our list and gameplan but fixing the midfield is key.
lets hope some of the yearling develop
 

LMGjr

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I know it's hard, really hard, but how about we blame no-one and just wait a bit?

You're all talking about a man whose helped train up how many flag winning coaches so far, yet he's lost it totally, come on people ? He has made mistakes, he is allowed to isn't he?

My 2 cents worth - the direction to top up should have been challenged 4yrs ago - nobody did, so we are here now = we have to just suck it up as this is all part of a ongoing discussion that will still be going, but with different people and names, long past our use by dates are up.

It's part of following footy and will make the good times even sweeter - think 08 after 91 - how sweet was it after being in the wilderness for so long.

But lay off the blame game - it's gets nobody anywhere - the head coach always ends up taking responsibility, in the end.
 

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